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Why is it time to move on from Collins?

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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#81 » by monopoman » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:10 am

Blazinaway wrote:Zach should be a C and we are trying to make him a PF which IMO ain't workin too well, we already have Nurk at C and I have to think its easily Zach that would get moved, if a good trade comes along I'd prefer to move Zach


Well for a good chunk of last season people were begging Stotts to pair Nurk+Collins together in the lineup. So I think back then no one deemed Z. Collins as a C.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#82 » by Sinobas » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:07 pm

Zach has shown flashes of being a very good role player, this season has been a dud for him, but he has one more year to prove it
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#83 » by Dzon Dilindzer » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:26 pm

get defensive small forward in the off-season, give time to nurk & collins to gel on the defensive end of the floor and i think our defense will improve with those three defensive players and with time...

this team can score, but we need defense, so hopefully neil olshey brings some backups that can defend and hopefully nassir little take a step in the right direction (wasnt he known for his potential on the defensive end and he seems like an energy type of player)
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#84 » by Blazinaway » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:18 pm

monopoman wrote:
Blazinaway wrote:Zach should be a C and we are trying to make him a PF which IMO ain't workin too well, we already have Nurk at C and I have to think its easily Zach that would get moved, if a good trade comes along I'd prefer to move Zach


Well for a good chunk of last season people were begging Stotts to pair Nurk+Collins together in the lineup. So I think back then no one deemed Z. Collins as a C.


In the current small ball NBA folks IMO should start "deeming" him a C
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#85 » by LillardTime » Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:44 am

One option for Zach IMO is have him start at the 4 and then slide over and play backup 5 when Nurk is on the bench. If Nurk plays 32 mpg this would give Zach around 16mpg with Nurk and then another 16mph as the backup 5. Given the trend of small ball, I don’t think Portland can carry Nurk and Whiteside because they’re both lumbering centres who struggle to close out on the perimeter. Blazers need to find a third big who can complement Nurk and Zach, someone like a Jeff Green and the skills he brings to his role in Houston. Zach needs to add some strength which he will do and then work on not fouling as much so he can play those minutes. He will be a strong role player for us as he continues to develop IMO.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#86 » by Roy The Natural » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:30 am

Portland played very good defense over Zach's stint today. I agree with others who think he should be the primary backup 5 and start at the 4. Again, I don't think it's fair to overanalyze everything from him right now. He doesn't have the value to be the centerpiece of a trade that gets an impact player right now IMO, and everything he does to finish this season should probably be taken with a grain of salt considering his long-term shoulder injury which very likely didn't allow for much practice time when it comes to offensive touch.

Just going to have to wait it out and see how he looks next year.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#87 » by zzaj » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:07 am

I liked Zach as the safe pick in 2017, his advanced numbers were better than anybody at the position and showed promise as a two-way, steady player. I still think that holds true.

That being said, if I was Olshey I'd be working on Lillard's blessing to ship CJ, Collins and a 1st for the best SF possible. Something like a Jimmy Butler, Bojan, Hayward. Keep Melo at PF, since he seems to have found a role there.

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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#88 » by PerkinsFor3 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:55 am

zzaj wrote:I liked Zach as the safe pick in 2017, his advanced numbers were better than anybody at the position and showed promise as a two-way, steady player. I still think that holds true.

That being said, if I was Olshey I'd be working on Lillard's blessing to ship CJ, Collins and a 1st for the best SF possible. Something like a Jimmy Butler, Bojan, Hayward. Keep Melo at PF, since he seems to have found a role there.

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Bogs is going to be a free agent this summer, as I doubt the Kings will lift the QO. He'd be a pretty good fit. Dont think you'll need to ship CJ. Trade Zach + #16 + Ant if needed and you could get a good return. Ariza will be back, Hood should be back. Thats extra bodies on the wing. Nas is developing.

By the way, the Bulls have a lot of young guys, and you can bet a lot of them become available. I'd give them a call first. Lauri, WCjr, Hutchinson, etc. Kick the tires a bit there.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#89 » by zzaj » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:45 pm

PerkinsFor3 wrote:
zzaj wrote:I liked Zach as the safe pick in 2017, his advanced numbers were better than anybody at the position and showed promise as a two-way, steady player. I still think that holds true.

That being said, if I was Olshey I'd be working on Lillard's blessing to ship CJ, Collins and a 1st for the best SF possible. Something like a Jimmy Butler, Bojan, Hayward. Keep Melo at PF, since he seems to have found a role there.

Lillard
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Butler
Melo
Nurkic

Bogs is going to be a free agent this summer, as I doubt the Kings will lift the QO. He'd be a pretty good fit. Dont think you'll need to ship CJ. Trade Zach + #16 + Ant if needed and you could get a good return. Ariza will be back, Hood should be back. Thats extra bodies on the wing. Nas is developing.

By the way, the Bulls have a lot of young guys, and you can bet a lot of them become available. I'd give them a call first. Lauri, WCjr, Hutchinson, etc. Kick the tires a bit there.


Bojan is fine as long as the Blazers have a defensive option as well at SF. Hood will likely be worse than Mario, and may never be an NBA rotation piece again...that’s the reality of average NBA players coming back from achilles injuries.

Lauri looked awesome for a bit...I saw him live twice this year and he looked like a complete disaster. I don’t know if that (or the other you g players) are what you want to hitch Lillard’s prime onto.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#90 » by HoopsFanAZ » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:35 pm

LillardTime wrote:One option for Zach IMO is have him start at the 4 and then slide over and play backup 5 when Nurk is on the bench. If Nurk plays 32 mpg this would give Zach around 16mpg with Nurk and then another 16mph as the backup 5. Given the trend of small ball, I don’t think Portland can carry Nurk and Whiteside because they’re both lumbering centres who struggle to close out on the perimeter. Blazers need to find a third big who can complement Nurk and Zach, someone like a Jeff Green and the skills he brings to his role in Houston. Zach needs to add some strength which he will do and then work on not fouling as much so he can play those minutes. He will be a strong role player for us as he continues to develop IMO.


These are EXACTLY my thoughts about the Blazer Bigs.

Whiteside and pick and roll defense are not compatible on the Blazers. On a different team, personnel and schemes might work better. I also agree with the packaging of CJ and Collins for an UPGRADE at SF, especially with the Blazer young fellas — GTJ and Simons. (CJ has serious value even with his average-ish D.) With Hood as a SF/SG, I get the trade. I just don’t see it happening unless CJ wants it ... he and Lillard have a serious partnership.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#91 » by Roy The Natural » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:38 pm

PerkinsFor3 wrote:
zzaj wrote:I liked Zach as the safe pick in 2017, his advanced numbers were better than anybody at the position and showed promise as a two-way, steady player. I still think that holds true.

That being said, if I was Olshey I'd be working on Lillard's blessing to ship CJ, Collins and a 1st for the best SF possible. Something like a Jimmy Butler, Bojan, Hayward. Keep Melo at PF, since he seems to have found a role there.

Lillard
Trent Jr.
Butler
Melo
Nurkic

Bogs is going to be a free agent this summer, as I doubt the Kings will lift the QO. He'd be a pretty good fit. Dont think you'll need to ship CJ. Trade Zach + #16 + Ant if needed and you could get a good return. Ariza will be back, Hood should be back. Thats extra bodies on the wing. Nas is developing.

By the way, the Bulls have a lot of young guys, and you can bet a lot of them become available. I'd give them a call first. Lauri, WCjr, Hutchinson, etc. Kick the tires a bit there.


Could a S&T of Bojan be worked out? That might be a possibility.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#92 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:07 pm

Roy The Natural wrote:
PerkinsFor3 wrote:
zzaj wrote:I liked Zach as the safe pick in 2017, his advanced numbers were better than anybody at the position and showed promise as a two-way, steady player. I still think that holds true.

That being said, if I was Olshey I'd be working on Lillard's blessing to ship CJ, Collins and a 1st for the best SF possible. Something like a Jimmy Butler, Bojan, Hayward. Keep Melo at PF, since he seems to have found a role there.

Lillard
Trent Jr.
Butler
Melo
Nurkic

Bogs is going to be a free agent this summer, as I doubt the Kings will lift the QO. He'd be a pretty good fit. Dont think you'll need to ship CJ. Trade Zach + #16 + Ant if needed and you could get a good return. Ariza will be back, Hood should be back. Thats extra bodies on the wing. Nas is developing.

By the way, the Bulls have a lot of young guys, and you can bet a lot of them become available. I'd give them a call first. Lauri, WCjr, Hutchinson, etc. Kick the tires a bit there.


Could a S&T of Bojan be worked out? That might be a possibility.


You guys mean Bogdan not Bojan right? Bogdan is more of a 2/3 playmaking wing who could replace a bit of what CJ brings and Bojan is more of a 3/4 forward who could provide spacing and scoring, kind of the role Melo has been playing.

Either would be fantastic for our team, but I agree that Bogdan is one of the more underrated players in the league right now.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#93 » by Blazer2334 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:40 pm

I think using the last 9 games as a decision on Zach Collins is a bit premature. Hurting his shoulder the way he did, combined with the amount of time he had off, leads to a plethora of rust. The fact that Nurk has come back so strong is an outlier, and he is displaying bouts of rust also.

Collins biggest “regression” has been his shooting, but he is 9 games back from an injury. I think pre-shoulder injury Zach is more indicative of his ability and potential. To use 9 games after a major injury to dismiss that is short sighted IMO.

He will get another shot next season, and If he isn’t back to himself by mid season next year, then I start to question if he is the player he was before, and to be the potential to be the player we all thought he would be.

I’m a HUGE fan of finding the idea of finding a an athletic PF (Gordon, Myles Turner, Green, etc) to start and play 30 MPG and move Collins to the 2nd unit with CJ. Both would still get substantial playing time and still have the option to play during crunch time.

Dame/Trent Jr/Ariza/PF/Nurk
CJ/Hood/Little/Melo/Collins is a stellar 1st and 2nd unit and puts some defensive players around Lillard, which is what we need to do to address our defensive weaknesses.

We have the scoring power to contend, we don’t have defense. Either we add a true 1b to our roster, or we round out the roster with players that fit. I think option B will be easier to achieve and hamper us less long term.


Back to Collins:

He is fouling ALOT and so is everyone. The teams defense has actually trended downward, not just Collins. We have integrated 2 new starters into a team, in some crazy ass circumstances. The fact that the Blazers have been playing as well as they have been is a testament to this team and their ability to bounce back.

I’m not worried about Collins shooting and inability to finish around the rim, that will come back.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#94 » by zzaj » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:01 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Roy The Natural wrote:
PerkinsFor3 wrote:Bogs is going to be a free agent this summer, as I doubt the Kings will lift the QO. He'd be a pretty good fit. Dont think you'll need to ship CJ. Trade Zach + #16 + Ant if needed and you could get a good return. Ariza will be back, Hood should be back. Thats extra bodies on the wing. Nas is developing.

By the way, the Bulls have a lot of young guys, and you can bet a lot of them become available. I'd give them a call first. Lauri, WCjr, Hutchinson, etc. Kick the tires a bit there.


Could a S&T of Bojan be worked out? That might be a possibility.


You guys mean Bogdan not Bojan right? Bogdan is more of a 2/3 playmaking wing who could replace a bit of what CJ brings and Bojan is more of a 3/4 forward who could provide spacing and scoring, kind of the role Melo has been playing.

Either would be fantastic for our team, but I agree that Bogdan is one of the more underrated players in the league right now.


I’m talking about Bojan (the SF/PF)...but I like both players. He’s abysmal defensively, but that’s why Ariza is on the roster, and two-way SFs are a rare, rare commodity. He’s shot 39% on high attempts from 3 for the past 3 seasons. IMO, that’d REALLY open up the floor for Lillard.

Again, I expect zero from Hood, and Melo can’t play SF.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#95 » by PerkinsFor3 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:08 am

Nah Im good on Bojan. He'd be another non defender, and we cant afford that in our line up. Not that Bogdan is great, but he's better than Bojan there. And he's a creator. Bojan is only a shooter.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#96 » by zzaj » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:09 am

PerkinsFor3 wrote:Nah Im good on Bojan. He'd be another non defender, and we cant afford that in our line up. Not that Bogdan is great, but he's better than Bojan there. And he's a creator. Bojan is only a shooter.


I'm factoring in cost here. Obviously Bogdan is the more dynamic player...but the Blazers have zero financial flexibility and I feel like in order to actually get Bogdan they'd be giving up just as much as they would be getting back--sideways move.

I feel like Bojan could be had for what the Blazers have to offer, and the combo of him and Ariza at the SF position has some versatility.

Of course the Blazers would love to have an athletic, 6'10", playmaking, 3&D SF who isn't a headcase..but there are only a couple of those and are likely not available. Looping back, I'd be interested to see what a package of CJ+Collins+1st could fetch...
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#97 » by PerkinsFor3 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:41 am

I would rather first explore Zach + Ant + 1st. Chicago might have a sale. Ditto for Kings.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#98 » by LillardTime » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:54 am

PerkinsFor3 wrote:I would rather first explore Zach + Ant + 1st. Chicago might have a sale. Ditto for Kings.

Who would you honestly target with that package at Chicago? Lauri? Same goes for the kings? Barnes? I don’t love either of those deals for us. My concern with Lauri is that while his offence is an upgrade over Zach’s, his defence is a down grade based off the eye test and this team needs defence not offence. With Barnes, it would have to come down to how his contract would impact us. Isn’t he in 20 mil?
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#99 » by PerkinsFor3 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:15 am

Huh? How would you want to get Barnes with that package? I'd try and see what the asking price for a Bjelica is. Holmes, too. I also would inform what Giles would want as a FA.

For Chi. I would prefer to get Lauri for the pieces I mentioned over trading away CJ for a similar type in Love. I would take a look at Hutchinson, Gafford, Kornet. I would also take a look at free agents coming out of that team this summer like Shaq Harrison and Kris Dunn.

Basically what I'm getting at, is that ourt weaknesses are very clear: Depth, lenght, perimeter defense and closing driving lanes, wing defense, reliable long range shooting and additional playmaking.

We have also seen that Zach Collins has made little progress, much like Ant Simmons. Especially with Zach, I just don't see the instincts and bball IQ. However, Trent has taken a huge step, which will help us in the future. However, he's far from CJ when it comes to creating and scoring - even though CJ is a seive on defense. When teams start trapping, doubling and hedging Dame, CJ is the guy to go to. Trading him away opens up another can of problems. Especially if we also don't resign Melo -remember how much he has bailed us out with timely scoring.

Side note: One realistic target guy I could see replace some of what CJ does (while also having the same weakness) is Malik Monk.

Now to go to our problems:
Depth
Length
Perimeter defense
Closing driving lanes
Wing defense
Additional playmaking
Reliable long range shooting

Ariza should be back next year: he is a huge help in reliable long range shooting,closing driving lanes, perimeter defense, wing defense and length. He also provides additionaL depth. Trent's continued development should help here as well. Then we have Nas Little and Jaylen Hoard who can develop into reliable wing defenders, given time (do we have that much)? I'm curious to see Wenyeen's development here as well.

I think addressing the additional weaknesses could be done by making smart moves, and targeting guys who don't open up other issues (like Harkless does - additional defense, but another 0 on the court on offense).

I would really like to see how Chandler Hutchinson's development has been - I have seen too little of the Bulls to judge. He has the tools to be a very capable defender, and his ball handling and passing on the wing could be very valuable for us. I would also love to explore getting a guy like Cody Martin - good size and defense on the wing and I loved his development as a scorer this season. Same goes for his twin brother Caleb Martin, who has been interesting. The Hornets also have Jalen McDaniels who could be a good fit for us. Then, they also have Malik Monk - who's prooooobably sort of out of favor over there. The other way around - they're said to be looking for a big man, and considering their history, they certainly have 'a type' there (Arnoldas Kulboka, Byron Mullens, Frank Kaminksy, Cody Zeller, Willy Hernangómez, Miles Plumlee, Spencer Hawes). :lol:

For Chicago, Kornet provides long range shooting, passable defense and overall just smart basketball. Should be available. I mentioned Hutchinson earlier.

Then we have the free agent market with smaller names like Shaq Harrison, Kris Dunn, Courtney Lee, Solomon Hill (although a little too much like what we've had in past years at the wing to my liking), Etwaun Moore, Jae Crowder, Deandre Bembry (good defender, decent playmaker, no shot - another Evan Turner, probably), Jakarr Sampson, Pat Connaughton, Damyean Dotson, Wesley Iwundu, David Nwaba, Frank Mason III, Orgeon product Gary Payton II, Kenrich Williams (Washington has QO but I doubt they take it - would love his fit here), and a guy like Treveon Graham would be a terrific fit. Most of these should be gettable for us, and are addressing needs we have.

Or the somewhat more popular, but older, guys like Paul Millsap, Marvin Williams, James Johnson, Aron Baynes, JaMychal Green, Garrett Temple, Dario Saric (going to demand way too much, I'm afraid), Harry Giles, Morrii brothers, Derrick Jones Jr. (Miami are among the healthies teams cap-wise this summer, so good luck there) - why not try.

Unfortunately getting someone who's a perfect fit, like Jerami Grant, will be a pipedream.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#100 » by d-train » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:57 pm

Collins is our PF this year, next year, and the year after that. Sometime on or before the 2021 off-season, he will be signed to a long term contract. He has fulfilled all expectations, other than health, and Blazers are delighted with what he has produced when he has played. The only way this changes is if Blazers get extraordinarily lucky in the draft, but it's much more likely Blazers never even draft a player at Zach's position.

What is a pipedream? It's a pipedream that Blazers will trade CJ, Lillard, Nurkic, or Collins. These players are the foundation of our team the next 4 years if Nurk can be re-signed 2022. Melo, Trent, Simons, and Little are highly valued assets that are unlikely to leave Blazers as long as Blazers have any say. So, another pipedream is any of these ridiculous concocted trades that have the Blazers giving up valued assets in exchange for duds from other teams.
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