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Time to fire Olshey and Stotts?

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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#81 » by Epicurus » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:47 am

Wizenheimer wrote:
d-train wrote:Olshey is going nowhere.


and he's taking the Blazers along to the same destination
Except 7trips in a row to the playoffs is not nothing or nowhere. Yes, I get it "championship or nothing." Only one team per season wins the championship, but to be that one a team must get into the playoffs. Perhaps other choices could have meant championship, but more probably not.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#82 » by Epicurus » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:52 am

On the other hand, it is difficult to be pleased with the dismantling of two 50 + win teams in NO's tenure. Seems like both would have been good launch points for a championship team.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#83 » by d-train » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:21 pm

Epicurus wrote:On the other hand, it is difficult to be pleased with the dismantling of two 50 + win teams in NO's tenure. Seems like both would have been good launch points for a championship team.

I'm guessing the first 50+ win team is the one led by Aldridge and Lillard. I don't agree that Olshey dismantled that team. His job was to be ready to move forward with that team if Aldridge re-signed or rebuild if he didn't. The tightrope Olshey successfully walked in being ready to prepare a contender or prepare for a 3-4 year rebuild was remarkable. Olshey did say it was a mistake to trade for Afflalo rather than stick with internal development. Maybe true, but I would rate it a minor error if not a reasonable decision.

The second dismantling, you must be talking about last summer. Our core was unchanged, so it was no dismantling. The only player Olshey let go by his decision was Aminu. The trades were all good. In hindsight, you can say Hassan didn't help the Blazers win any games, that the Blazers could have done just as well with Harkless and Leonard. Maybe, but I believe the Hasson acquisition was a reasonable attempt to plug a big hole that didn't work as well as it looked on paper. I might have agreed with keeping Aminu last summer, but look at what that would mean this summer. We would have no full MLE, no BAE, and Hasson would have tremendous bargaining power to get overpaid because our options to replace him would be much less. How valuable would it be to have Aminu vs the flexibility we have to improve this summer? It's close, but maybe it wouldn't be so close if Collins stayed healthy. In hindsight, Collins lost development time anyway. We need to see if having $20M+ to spend will yield some great opportunity this summer. Even if it doesn't, we might do better than having Aminu.

Also, there is the money and budget question. There could be new budget restrictions that affects roster decisions.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#84 » by Epicurus » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:11 pm

No dismantling? Try counting the court minutes of those who departed, then tell me no dismantling occurred. Whatever the reasons, two dismantling have occurred of 50+ winning teams.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#85 » by d-train » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Epicurus wrote:No dismantling? Try counting the court minutes of those who departed, then tell me no dismantling occurred. Whatever the reasons, two dismantling have occurred of 50+ winning teams.

No, no dismantling occurred regardless of court time. The first time, we lost the core of our team in free agency. This isn't dismantling, it's loss via free agency and rebuilding because of loss of core. The second time, we retained the core of our team, but lost the services of Nurkic because of injury. An injury Olshey could prepare for in the offseason, and he tried. The loss of Collins's minutes could not be anticipated.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#86 » by Epicurus » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:32 pm

I guess relevance is a lost art.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#87 » by d-train » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:36 pm

Epicurus wrote:I guess relevance is a lost art.

How so, your original point was a criticism of Olshey's roster management? No relevance is lost, unless you are now saying uncontrollable events resulted in the equivalent of 2 roster dismantlings. You can't say the roster was dismantled, because it never was.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#88 » by HoopsFanAZ » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:48 pm

d-train wrote:
Epicurus wrote:No dismantling? Try counting the court minutes of those who departed, then tell me no dismantling occurred. Whatever the reasons, two dismantling have occurred of 50+ winning teams.

No, no dismantling occurred regardless of court time. The first time, we lost the core of our team in free agency. This isn't dismantling, it's loss via free agency and rebuilding because of loss of core. The second time, we retained the core of our team, but lost the services of Nurkic because of injury. An injury Olshey could prepare for in the offseason, and he tried. The loss of Collins's minutes could not be anticipated.


1. Batum traded, regardless. Loved his game, not the disappearing act.
2. Plan (LM)A and Plan B (Dame, CJ, and a courtesy comment for Meyers). No LMA ... RoLo no longer fit and Matthews got overpaid by Dallas with his achilles. It was about free agency. Sign LMA ahead of the Spurs and Suns and Lopez stays. Maybe-to-probably on Matthews (with protections).

As long as Dame is around, there's no dismantling -- he and Nurkic are the dudes. It's about swapping out parts ala the Spurs with Duncan, TP, and Manu (minus the rings). Make a mega trade AND fire Stotts? ... that's a dismantling with an instant reshaping the team for contention.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#89 » by d-train » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:56 pm

HoopsFanAZ wrote:
d-train wrote:
Epicurus wrote:No dismantling? Try counting the court minutes of those who departed, then tell me no dismantling occurred. Whatever the reasons, two dismantling have occurred of 50+ winning teams.

No, no dismantling occurred regardless of court time. The first time, we lost the core of our team in free agency. This isn't dismantling, it's loss via free agency and rebuilding because of loss of core. The second time, we retained the core of our team, but lost the services of Nurkic because of injury. An injury Olshey could prepare for in the offseason, and he tried. The loss of Collins's minutes could not be anticipated.


1. Batum traded, regardless. Loved his game, not the disappearing act.
2. Plan (LM)A and Plan B (Dame, CJ, and a courtesy comment for Meyers). No LMA ... RoLo no longer fit and Matthews got overpaid by Dallas with his achilles. It was about free agency. Sign LMA ahead of the Spurs and Suns and Lopez stays. Maybe-to-probably on Matthews (with protections).

As long as Dame is around, there's no dismantling -- he and Nurkic are the dudes. It's about swapping out parts ala the Spurs with Duncan, TP, and Manu (minus the rings). Make a mega trade AND fire Stotts? ... that's a dismantling with an instant reshaping the team for contention.

Some people believe the Batum trade was part of the Aldridge rebuild. I don't believe that. I believe Olshey traded Batum as a move that fit his plan to either move forward with Aldridge or rebuild without Aldridge. If you look at our cap structure back then, Blazers were setup to pursue all the best free agents that offseason if they eliminated Batum's contract. Of course, free agents are not attracted to a team that is losing its core.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#90 » by Epicurus » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:59 am

d-train wrote:
Epicurus wrote:I guess relevance is a lost art.

How so, your original point was a criticism of Olshey's roster management? No relevance is lost, unless you are now saying uncontrollable events resulted in the equivalent of 2 roster dismantlings. You can't say the roster was dismantled, because it never was.

What criticism? It was an historical description of two times in NO's tenure. For some reason, you believe both times did not represent a dismantling, despite the many minutes of floor time leaving the Blazers both times.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#91 » by HoopsFanAZ » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:13 pm

d-train wrote:Some people believe the Batum trade was part of the Aldridge rebuild. I don't believe that. I believe Olshey traded Batum as a move that fit his plan to either move forward with Aldridge or rebuild without Aldridge. If you look at our cap structure back then, Blazers were setup to pursue all the best free agents that offseason if they eliminated Batum's contract. Of course, free agents are not attracted to a team that is losing its core.


Agreed. I remember reading and listening to ideas in the media and on boards that Batum's trade foreshadowed LMA's exit and that it signaled Olshey pretty much knew LMA was gone. But what I heard from friends with connections (at least back then) was that Olshey and Paul Allen were done with Batum's inconsistency ... he would disappear. (It's the same "unselfishness" and "team player" that drove me nuts about Boris Diaw.) Batum got the big bucks when Portland wouldn't let Minnesota have him and then got far too much in Charlotte. He was not the next Scottie Pippen. No. Batum was gone regardless of LMA staying or gone. Only LMA really knew what he was doing; as was his job, Olshey was smart enough to have a plan B and act upon it quickly.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#92 » by Wizenheimer » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 pm

HoopsFanAZ wrote:
d-train wrote:Some people believe the Batum trade was part of the Aldridge rebuild. I don't believe that. I believe Olshey traded Batum as a move that fit his plan to either move forward with Aldridge or rebuild without Aldridge. If you look at our cap structure back then, Blazers were setup to pursue all the best free agents that offseason if they eliminated Batum's contract. Of course, free agents are not attracted to a team that is losing its core.


Agreed. I remember reading and listening to ideas in the media and on boards that Batum's trade foreshadowed LMA's exit and that it signaled Olshey pretty much knew LMA was gone. But what I heard from friends with connections (at least back then) was that Olshey and Paul Allen were done with Batum's inconsistency ... he would disappear. (It's the same "unselfishness" and "team player" that drove me nuts about Boris Diaw.) Batum got the big bucks when Portland wouldn't let Minnesota have him and then got far too much in Charlotte. He was not the next Scottie Pippen. No. Batum was gone regardless of LMA staying or gone. Only LMA really knew what he was doing; as was his job, Olshey was smart enough to have a plan B and act upon it quickly.


yeah sure

Portland was so fed up with Batum's inconsistency they traded him for the very consistent Gerald Henderson and Noah Vonleh, then traded for the consistency of Harkless, and signed the consistency of Aminu

Portland knew Aldridge was as good as gone when they traded Batum. Kim Hughes got fired for speaking the truth about Aldridge leaving. Olshey had an opportunity to rebuild the Blazers according to his vision and he took it. And, Portland didn't want to get into another bidding war for Batum a year later; especially not having to deal with Batum's agent again
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#93 » by HoopsFanAZ » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:56 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
HoopsFanAZ wrote:Agreed. I remember reading and listening to ideas in the media and on boards that Batum's trade foreshadowed LMA's exit and that it signaled Olshey pretty much knew LMA was gone. But what I heard from friends with connections (at least back then) was that Olshey and Paul Allen were done with Batum's inconsistency ... he would disappear. (It's the same "unselfishness" and "team player" that drove me nuts about Boris Diaw.) Batum got the big bucks when Portland wouldn't let Minnesota have him and then got far too much in Charlotte. He was not the next Scottie Pippen. No. Batum was gone regardless of LMA staying or gone. Only LMA really knew what he was doing; as was his job, Olshey was smart enough to have a plan B and act upon it quickly.


yeah sure

Portland was so fed up with Batum's inconsistency they traded him for the very consistent Gerald Henderson and Noah Vonleh, then traded for the consistency of Harkless, and signed the consistency of Aminu

Portland knew Aldridge was as good as gone when they traded Batum. Kim Hughes got fired for speaking the truth about Aldridge leaving. Olshey had an opportunity to rebuild the Blazers according to his vision and he took it. And, Portland didn't want to get into another bidding war for Batum a year later; especially not having to deal with Batum's agent again


Yes, Hughes unwisely got himself fired. Leaking information wasn't his job, and he was a good big man coach. But he leaked what he knew ... which is very different than knowing what Aldridge was actually going to do. LMA had several versions of his thinking over at least two years. Yes, Hughes' information ends up being what LMA did. But that was Hughes' version of events. Without actually knowing what Olshey knew at that time with a high degree of certainty (90% confidence is the standard I was taught), then the simplest explanation is plan A and plan B without Batum either way.

Yes, Batum's agent was part of the problem. And the Blazers weren't going to pay more for what they were already not getting. His inconsistency was clearly established. IMHO, Batum was not used well or developed well by the Blazers' coaches. BUT I'm biased on that account.

Who Portland traded Batum for works equally well (or equally poorly) with or without LMA. Batum was gone for what they could get. Once plan B began, in my view, the lottery was expected for two years, but that relied upon plan A ending, which only LMA truly knew. Reclamation projects, marginal starters, guys to develop ... yup, plan B looked like a lottery team that wasn't. I wish it had been.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#94 » by HoopsFanAZ » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:19 am

In being a devil's advocate to myself, I'm not a big Olshey fan. Friends who have met him aren't fans of what they perceived. I'll leave it at that, and place some trust in their perceptions. He's an actor who sticks to script and knows when the lights are on. I don't know him personally, so I choose not to look at that in a negative way.

I do like Nurkic, Collins, Hood, GTJ, Lillard and CJ (on another team), and pending on Simons and Little. So I do give Olshey some credit, even though he's a lot less fun than KP. Stotts? ... I'm conflicted. I want to hope and see the positive. Did the same with Meyers Leonard. I guess I've answered my own question. If conflicted long enough about which way to go, which way is more likely to result in the same or worse? Unlike common NBA wisdom, I don't like the firing of a coach or GM if they still have the backing of the team's star. That leaves players. That leaves CJ ... and if not ... that leaves Olshey.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#95 » by wco81 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:30 am

I liked Batum when he was on the Blazers.

Though thought of him more as a secondary player, wing defense, give you some good offense. But he was paid like he was going to be a 20-25 PPG scorer.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#96 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 pm

HoopsFanAZ wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
Spoiler:
HoopsFanAZ wrote:Agreed. I remember reading and listening to ideas in the media and on boards that Batum's trade foreshadowed LMA's exit and that it signaled Olshey pretty much knew LMA was gone. But what I heard from friends with connections (at least back then) was that Olshey and Paul Allen were done with Batum's inconsistency ... he would disappear. (It's the same "unselfishness" and "team player" that drove me nuts about Boris Diaw.) Batum got the big bucks when Portland wouldn't let Minnesota have him and then got far too much in Charlotte. He was not the next Scottie Pippen. No. Batum was gone regardless of LMA staying or gone. Only LMA really knew what he was doing; as was his job, Olshey was smart enough to have a plan B and act upon it quickly.


yeah sure

Portland was so fed up with Batum's inconsistency they traded him for the very consistent Gerald Henderson and Noah Vonleh, then traded for the consistency of Harkless, and signed the consistency of Aminu

Portland knew Aldridge was as good as gone when they traded Batum. Kim Hughes got fired for speaking the truth about Aldridge leaving. Olshey had an opportunity to rebuild the Blazers according to his vision and he took it. And, Portland didn't want to get into another bidding war for Batum a year later; especially not having to deal with Batum's agent again


Yes, Hughes unwisely got himself fired. Leaking information wasn't his job, and he was a good big man coach. But he leaked what he knew ... which is very different than knowing what Aldridge was actually going to do. LMA had several versions of his thinking over at least two years. Yes, Hughes' information ends up being what LMA did. But that was Hughes' version of events. Without actually knowing what Olshey knew at that time with a high degree of certainty (90% confidence is the standard I was taught), then the simplest explanation is plan A and plan B without Batum either way.

Yes, Batum's agent was part of the problem. And the Blazers weren't going to pay more for what they were already not getting. His inconsistency was clearly established. IMHO, Batum was not used well or developed well by the Blazers' coaches. BUT I'm biased on that account.

Who Portland traded Batum for works equally well (or equally poorly) with or without LMA. Batum was gone for what they could get. Once plan B began, in my view, the lottery was expected for two years, but that relied upon plan A ending, which only LMA truly knew. Reclamation projects, marginal starters, guys to develop ... yup, plan B looked like a lottery team that wasn't. I wish it had been.


I wasn't defending what Hughes did. Just pointing to what he said as good evidence the Blazers knew Aldridge was gone when they made the Batum trade. Hughes was fired in July, but his comments came back in June about the time Batum was traded

more to the point, I think the notion Batum was traded because of inconsistency is deflection and revision. As an expiring contract he would have had a lot more value approaching the trade deadline than in the June before. I'm convinced Olshey knew Aldridge was gone by the time he traded Batum. And he did what he almost always does and that's look in the bargain bin for reclamation projects in Henderson and Vonleh. But those two players were even more inconsistent that Batum. Batum was a wildly inconsistent scorer and shooter, but he almost always provided consistently good passing, versatile defense, and decent rebounding from the SF position

IMO, Olshey knew Aldridge was gone and just started early in tearing apart the roster he inherited and building one that fit his vision
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#97 » by DaVoiceMaster » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:47 am

I'm with Wiz. The Blazers knee Aldridge was gone, despite LMA telling the fans he wanted to stay here. LIAR!!! The Blazers then broke up the team and hit the do-over button. They just didnt do a good job at starting over.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#98 » by Sinobas » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:21 pm

Not sure about Olshey. He's been pretty good in the draft, especially with later picks. (though the 2017 draft is not looking too good right now).

He went after several free agents that would have been big time busts had he succeeded. But he's been pretty good at finding talent from the bargain bin. Which is tough to do.

There's the imfamous Barton/Afflalo trade, but he more than redeemed himself with landing Nurk.
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#99 » by JasonStern » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:36 pm

Read on Twitter


With the Lakers humiliating a Rockets team with two recent league MVPs, maybe the narrative shouldn't be how bad Portland was versus how good the Lakers have been..?
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Re: Time to fire Olshey and Stotts? 

Post#100 » by wco81 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:50 pm

Well the Blazers and Rockets role players are being outshot and outplayed by the likes of Caruso, KCP and some guy from the G-League.

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