ZCO

[soobias]

i dont see the hype about zco at all. what has he ever done to be considered an asset ?
even taking injuries out of it , i havent seen anything promising from him except that he's not afraid to mix it up.
maybe im missing something, someone help me and point out all the qualities he has that makes him some kind of starter.

[Sinobas]

i dont see the hype about zco at all. what has he ever done to be considered an asset ?
even taking injuries out of it , i havent seen anything promising from him except that he's not afraid to mix it up.
maybe im missing something, someone help me and point out all the qualities he has that makes him some kind of starter.

He's flashed ability to be a very good defender and a good 3pt shooter. But expectations were high last year and it was a major dud for him, when he returned to the Bubble he looked like garbage, then got hurt again. It seems most of the fanbase has pretty much written him off.

I think he can easily be another Aminu type player, but has the ability to be better, he needs to get stronger and better able to finish inside.

[BlazersBroncos]

He showed great defensive instincts, switchability at 7 feet that is very rare and a willingness to mix it up down low. And a growing 3PT shot. But year 3 is when you generally expect a big jump from a young guy and he was injured, so alot of the wind came out of our sails.

But he also has legit warts. Despite nice footwork he has poor touch down low and his hands are pretty poor. He is tough, but it doesnt make up for lack of bulk when fighting for rebounds, where he is just really bad.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

i dont see the hype about zco at all. what has he ever done to be considered an asset ?
even taking injuries out of it , i havent seen anything promising from him except that he's not afraid to mix it up.
maybe im missing something, someone help me and point out all the qualities he has that makes him some kind of starter.

IIRC he looked pretty good coming off our 2019 playoff run, but since his entire 2020 season was derailed by injuries he never really took the next step. I notice this with chronically injured players that fans tend to also write off their abilities, I remember seeing this with Oden all the time that people still to this day just think he was an unskilled big body. If Zach wasn't injured he would likely still be our starting PF but Zach has me worried right now about his ability to ever stay healthy.

Zach does also have some warts, he still doesn't have the mass to bang with true centers all game long and complaints about his rebounding and hands are true, which I would point out also effects his finishing and ball handling.

But he also has some major positives, which seem to be what you are after, starting with his defensive IQ and ability to move his feet and defend the perimeter at 7' foot. It makes him an ideal small-ball center, but also lets him guard a good number of PFs. He has a workable shot out to 3 point range and is the last Blazer I recall to pull off a Dirk type fadeaway from the post.

So as a prototype of a player he fits a very in-vogue NBA role playing big man these days, with the ability to defend the perimeter, provide help defense around the rim, and stretch the floor. Not as good as Myles Turner but in that same "type" of player that I think absolutely any NBA team could find a role for. Just like every team could use another 3&D wing, every team could find minutes for a healthy 3&D big.

[Wizenheimer]

his defense quickly became overrated. He looked best defensively when he was welded in the rotation with Ed Davis. But that had more to do with Davis than Zach. He's also a fairly weak rebounder for a C/PF. An important component of defense for a big is defensive rebounding and Zach is not good at that

[Roy The Natural]

his defense quickly became overrated. He looked best defensively when he was welded in the rotation with Ed Davis. But that had more to do with Davis than Zach. He's also a fairly weak rebounder for a C/PF. An important component of defense for a big is defensive rebounding and Zach is not good at that

Hmmm... I disagree with that. I thought Zach played very well alongside Kanter. And Ed Davis was a really bad defender.

[d-train]

Zach's defense is underrated. He doesn't get respect from refs, but this comes slow for non-stars not playing for the larger market teams.

Zach gets a lot of rebounds out of his area. Most rebounds are grabbed by players in the best rebounding position. Players like Hassan can grab big rebounding numbers because they are only active near the basket. Zach isn't a great rebounder, but many of the ones he gets are in addition to the easy ones.

[Wizenheimer]

And Ed Davis was a really bad defender.

LOL...wut?

2015-16

defensive rating:

1 Ed Davis 104
2 Mason Plumlee 104
3 Noah Vonleh 107
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 107
5 Maurice Harkless 108

DBPM:

1 Mason Plumlee 1.6
2 Ed Davis 0.9
3 Cliff Alexander 0.5
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 0.2
5 Maurice Harkless 0.0

2017-18 (Davis injured most of previous season):

defensive rating:

2 Jusuf Nurkić 101
3 Ed Davis 103
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 104
5 Caleb Swanigan 105
6 Noah Vonleh 105

DBPM:

2 Maurice Harkless 1.7
3 Wade Baldwin 1.7
4 Shabazz Napier 1.4
5 Caleb Swanigan 1.2
6 Jusuf Nurkić 1.1
7 Al-Farouq Aminu 1.1
8 Meyers Leonard 0.9
9 Ed Davis 0.6
10 Noah Vonleh 0.6

in 2017-18, Portland was 8th in the league in defensive rating. The following season they fell to 16th and the only substantive change in the rotation was losing Ed Davis

meanwhile, in the same season, Zach was 10th on the team in defensive rating and 12th in DBPM. The following season he moved up to 7th in def. rating and 6th in DBPM. But last season, he was 12th in def. rating and 15th in DBPM. Now, he only played 11 games, so sample size. However, since Zach fans are always pointing to Portland's 8-3 record with Zach last season, it's appropriate to point out his minimal impact. He was also outside of Portland's top-10 in PER, TS%, winshare48, & BPM. The 8-3 record had nothing to do with Zach

and Zach was only 8th in rebounding rate. Which brings up another point: for C's and PF's, a critical component of defense is controlling the defensive glass. Davis had about a 26% defensive rebounding rate in Portland; Zach has a 17% rate

now, both players average less than 20 minutes so the stats can have noise depending on the rotation. But calling Ed Davis a "really bad defender" is unsupportable except by "that's how I feel"

[Roy The Natural]

And Ed Davis was a really bad defender.

LOL...wut?

2015-16

defensive rating:

1 Ed Davis 104
2 Mason Plumlee 104
3 Noah Vonleh 107
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 107
5 Maurice Harkless 108

DBPM:

1 Mason Plumlee 1.6
2 Ed Davis 0.9
3 Cliff Alexander 0.5
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 0.2
5 Maurice Harkless 0.0

2017-18 (Davis injured most of previous season):

defensive rating:

2 Jusuf Nurkić 101
3 Ed Davis 103
4 Al-Farouq Aminu 104
5 Caleb Swanigan 105
6 Noah Vonleh 105

DBPM:

2 Maurice Harkless 1.7
3 Wade Baldwin 1.7
4 Shabazz Napier 1.4
5 Caleb Swanigan 1.2
6 Jusuf Nurkić 1.1
7 Al-Farouq Aminu 1.1
8 Meyers Leonard 0.9
9 Ed Davis 0.6
10 Noah Vonleh 0.6

in 2017-18, Portland was 8th in the league in defensive rating. The following season they fell to 16th and the only substantive change in the rotation was losing Ed Davis

meanwhile, in the same season, Zach was 10th on the team in defensive rating and 12th in DBPM. The following season he moved up to 7th in def. rating and 6th in DBPM. But last season, he was 12th in def. rating and 15th in DBPM. Now, he only played 11 games, so sample size. However, since Zach fans are always pointing to Portland's 8-3 record with Zach last season, it's appropriate to point out his minimal impact. He was also outside of Portland's top-10 in PER, TS%, winshare48, & BPM. The 8-3 record had nothing to do with Zach

and Zach was only 8th in rebounding rate. Which brings up another point: for C's and PF's, a critical component of defense is controlling the defensive glass. Davis had about a 26% defensive rebounding rate in Portland; Zach has a 17% rate

now, both players average less than 20 minutes so the stats can have noise depending on the rotation. But calling Ed Davis a "really bad defender" is unsupportable except by "that's how I feel"

BPM and DRtg are just boxscore amalgamates they mean less than nothing. Ed Davis wasn't very good on defense in 2017-18. He's had marginal at best impact since then as well. He doesn't rim protect and doesn't defend the perimeter well. His primary impact defensively is high level rebounding.

[HoopsFanAZ]

1. Collins with his single, back-up big year at Gonzaga.
2. Got UP to 232 lbs for NBA draft measurements.
3. Now up at about 250 lbs and looks to easily handle more. Three years of skills work and core strength hampered by non-serious injuries (in terms of limitations upon his career moving forward).

Watching the positives and negatives of him on the court, it's appropriate that Collins gets a make good year to earn his 2nd contract. Where GTJ wants to up his value ... a confident guy, he is ... Collins has to get and stay healthy and WIN his position by the end of the year. NOT be the guy who gets it. The guy who wins it.

Otherwise, Collins is in a head to head competition with Giles for the backup PF/C who gets starter minutes. [Not seeing Kanter as a longer term guy unless neither cuts it.]

[d-train]

I like ED. He was a tough competitor here. However, Jazz had to give Knicks 2 - 2nd round picks to take his contract, which was only 5M. Knicks flipped him to TPups for 2 bad contracts and another 2nd. Basically, ED's value is as a pawn in a bad teams asset accumulation.

[d-train]

Isaac didn't even have to be healthy to get a big contract.

[Wizenheimer]

BPM and DRtg are just boxscore amalgamates they mean less than nothing. Ed Davis wasn't very good on defense in 2017-18. He's had marginal at best impact since then as well. He doesn't rim protect and doesn't defend the perimeter well. His primary impact defensively is high level rebounding.

last thing first: Nurkic doesn't defend the perimeter well either. That does not make Nurkic a bad defender nor does it make Zach a better defender than Nurk.

and it's pretty predictable that as soon as any stats disputed your bias, you were going to claim the stats don't mean anything. They mean something, and DRPM shows the same thing.

but since you won't accept any statistical argument, we're just left with your completely subjective opinion vs mine. You think Davis was a "really bad defender"; I don't think that's true at all

[JasonStern]

If Zach Collins believed in himself as much as Olshey believes in him, he'd be an all-star.

Wasn't thrilled with the pick. Was disappointed when the Blazers traded 2 1sts to make the pick. But I guess getting Giles as a retread years later offsets the pick trade.

Fool disclosure - once we made the picks swap, I wanted Malik Monk. And I think if you take Monk out of a somewhat disfunctional organization as Charlotte and put him in a Blazers organization with a proven ability to develop guards, Monk would be just as hyped by fans as Simons is/was.

[d-train]

BPM and DRtg are just boxscore amalgamates they mean less than nothing. Ed Davis wasn't very good on defense in 2017-18. He's had marginal at best impact since then as well. He doesn't rim protect and doesn't defend the perimeter well. His primary impact defensively is high level rebounding.

last thing first: Nurkic doesn't defend the perimeter well either. That does not make Nurkic a bad defender nor does it make Zach a better defender than Nurk.

and it's pretty predictable that as soon as any stats disputed your bias, you were going to claim the stats don't mean anything. They mean something, and DRPM shows the same thing.

but since you won't accept any statistical argument, we're just left with your completely subjective opinion vs mine. You think Davis was a "really bad defender"; I don't think that's true at all

Stats have there place. The way they are used in player comparisons by fans is worthless.

Good defenders, especially big ones, do have considerable value in the NBA. Davis would have more value to the Blazers, Nets, Jazz, and Knicks, if his defense was really good.

Edit:. Actually, Jazz liked him in 2019, but not so much a year later.

[BlazersBroncos]

BPM and DRtg are just boxscore amalgamates they mean less than nothing. Ed Davis wasn't very good on defense in 2017-18. He's had marginal at best impact since then as well. He doesn't rim protect and doesn't defend the perimeter well. His primary impact defensively is high level rebounding.

This is just objectively not true. DBPM consistently aligns with the eye test.

Example, Zach played his best defense in the 19 playoff run, his DBPM illustrates that. Another, Robert Covington is an elite defender and clearly plays his best defense when at PF, the 2020 playoff DBPM illustrates that (He led all players with nearly a 4.0 DBPM).

Ed Davis was a very good defender. His positional and help defense was very good. Nearly all advanced stats showed that this team was very good when Ed Davis was on the floor. He is a corpse now, but he was good for his stint here.

[Roy The Natural]

BPM and DRtg are just boxscore amalgamates they mean less than nothing. Ed Davis wasn't very good on defense in 2017-18. He's had marginal at best impact since then as well. He doesn't rim protect and doesn't defend the perimeter well. His primary impact defensively is high level rebounding.

This is just objectively not true. DBPM consistently aligns with the eye test.

Example, Zach played his best defense in the 19 playoff run, his DBPM illustrates that. Another, Robert Covington is an elite defender and clearly plays his best defense when at PF, the 2020 playoff DBPM illustrates that (He led all players with nearly a 4.0 DBPM).

Ed Davis was a very good defender. His positional and help defense was very good. Nearly all advanced stats showed that this team was very good when Ed Davis was on the floor. He is a corpse now, but he was good for his stint here.

What's not true? BPM is an amalgamation of weighted boxscore stats. That's what it is.

[BlazersBroncos]

What's not true? BPM is an amalgamation of weighted boxscore stats. That's what it is.

You said it means less than nothing, thats not true.

WS/48 is the best indicator, but BPM is a quality measurement of talent as well.

[d-train]

Ed Davis was a very good defender. His positional and help defense was very good. Nearly all advanced stats showed that this team was very good when Ed Davis was on the floor. He is a corpse now, but he was good for his stint here.

Ed Davis is only 31 and has never had a serious injury. He is in or near his prime. His skillset is not in big demand and there is a long list of rebounders with more other skills ahead of him.

[d-train]

What's not true? BPM is an amalgamation of weighted boxscore stats. That's what it is.

You said it means less than nothing, thats not true.

WS/48 is the best indicator, but BPM is a quality measurement of talent as well.

It means nothing when comparing Zach to ED.