Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers

[d-train]

I see d-train is playing is favorite game of “what’s the most wrong a human being can be?” again tonight.

Where am I wrong?

[HoopsFanAZ]

More trade scenarios are possible on Feb 5, when DCC can be traded, and Mar 5, when Hood can be traded. Harden might still be on the block. The trade deadline is Mar 25. Blazers might make a trade that doesn't involve Harden. Injuries could be a factor.

... This is why a trade should be done by the Blazers sooner than later.
1. Every other team that signed or traded for players will have more options in a trade package once restrictions are over. Better to keep other teams' options limited if possible.
2. Better to get the trade done so that players can gel earlier for a playoff run.
3. This would be the case especially for teams that are looking to contend.

As soon as Houston is ready to move Harden, make the trade.
The Portland players aren't tough to name -- CJ, Collins, Simons, Little, picks. GTJ if necessary, then minus Simons.
If the parameters of a trade are set and then a 3rd team helps the trade get even better -- all the better. Other teams jumping in to upset those parameters is to be avoided.

[Sinobas]

I'm pretty sure Olshey would do anything short of trading Lillard to get Harden. Why would you not upgrade CJ to Harden? Harden is better in every facet.

Lillard might be the player Olshey would trade. Since Harden is an upgrade to either Lillard or CJ, the argument to get an upgrade works for either player. Making a trade comes down to resolving the obstacles. The most difficult obstacle would be if Olshey is unwilling to part ways with any of the nucleus of Lillard, CJ, Nurk, or Zach. The next biggest obstacle is financial. Trading Lillard achieves an upgrade and is the easiest to satisfy the financial hurdles. Other than the current season, trading Lillard would provide Blazers a financial benefit. Another obstacle might be Rockets don't want Lillard because of the financial impact it would have on them.

Sometimes I can't tell if your serious. The talent gap between Harden and Dame isn't great enough to trade the face of the franchise. When you factor in the difference in attitude etc, no chance in hell.

[d-train]

I'm pretty sure Olshey would do anything short of trading Lillard to get Harden. Why would you not upgrade CJ to Harden? Harden is better in every facet.

Lillard might be the player Olshey would trade. Since Harden is an upgrade to either Lillard or CJ, the argument to get an upgrade works for either player. Making a trade comes down to resolving the obstacles. The most difficult obstacle would be if Olshey is unwilling to part ways with any of the nucleus of Lillard, CJ, Nurk, or Zach. The next biggest obstacle is financial. Trading Lillard achieves an upgrade and is the easiest to satisfy the financial hurdles. Other than the current season, trading Lillard would provide Blazers a financial benefit. Another obstacle might be Rockets don't want Lillard because of the financial impact it would have on them.

Sometimes I can't tell if your serious. The talent gap between Harden and Dame isn't great enough to trade the face of the franchise. When you factor in the difference in attitude etc, no chance in hell.

Your argument is that not every upgrade is worth it. I agree with this. Not every upgrade is worth it. I don't see anyone here looking at the negative aspects of trading for Harden. In particular, nobody is looking at the financial impact. How much luxury tax is Jody willing to pay? How much luxury tax will Jody pay if a Blazers team with Harden is no more successful than it was before Harden? It's not certain Jody will pay tax to keep the talent we have now. It's certain that Jody will have to pay tax next year if she wants to keep most of this team together. Blazers fans are spoiled. Most teams will not pay the tax.

[DusterBuster]

DCC and Hood are trade restricted until 2/5 and 3/5, respectively. It would be almost impossible for Blazers to make a deal that didn't include 1 or both these players.

Not that I see... CJ+Zach+Little or Simons equals the salary needed..... It's not even close to impossible CJ+Rookie scale contracts gets you there real quick.

If we trade any of Lillard, CJ, Nurk, or Zach, we are deconstructing our team. Before we do that we have to make sure we are a certain contender after the trade. IOW, we have to have a team that will beat the Lakers.

What was that again about trading Zach being deconstructing the team d-wrong?...

Read on Twitter

I still stand by my theory that Zach is excessively injury prone, too much so to be counted on for the future, and is in no way "core" to this franchise's future.

Also probably tanks his interest from a team like Houston. Probably would just be considered mostly salary filler on their end.

[d-train]

Not that I see... CJ+Zach+Little or Simons equals the salary needed..... It's not even close to impossible CJ+Rookie scale contracts gets you there real quick.

If we trade any of Lillard, CJ, Nurk, or Zach, we are deconstructing our team. Before we do that we have to make sure we are a certain contender after the trade. IOW, we have to have a team that will beat the Lakers.

What was that again about trading Zach being deconstructing the team d-wrong?...

Read on Twitter

I still stand by my theory that Zach is excessively injury prone, too much so to be counted on for the future, and is in no way "core" to this franchise's future.

Also probably tanks his interest from a team like Houston. Probably would just be considered mostly salary filler on their end.

Your previously stated theory was Zach wasn't any good. I guess you are adding a backdated addendum that Zach is hopelessly injury prone as well. Your backdated addendum is noted.

I don't know the condition of Zach's foot. He is either not a trade chip because he's damaged goods or he's a core part of our team when he's healthy and he shouldn't be traded without replacing his valuable contribution to what we are attempting to build.

What specifically do you think I'm wrong about, other than my opinion that Zach contributes an essential skillset to the team Blazers are trying to build? I knew Zach was injured. Now I know his injury status has worsened. My opinion of Zach's skillset is unchanged. I'll wait for more information before declaring him damaged goods.

[DaVoiceMaster]

If we trade any of Lillard, CJ, Nurk, or Zach, we are deconstructing our team. Before we do that we have to make sure we are a certain contender after the trade. IOW, we have to have a team that will beat the Lakers.

What was that again about trading Zach being deconstructing the team d-wrong?...

Read on Twitter

I still stand by my theory that Zach is excessively injury prone, too much so to be counted on for the future, and is in no way "core" to this franchise's future.

Also probably tanks his interest from a team like Houston. Probably would just be considered mostly salary filler on their end.

Your previously stated theory was Zach wasn't any good. I guess you are adding a backdated addendum that Zach is hopelessly injury prone as well. Your backdated addendum is noted.

I don't know the condition of Zach's foot. He is either not a trade chip because he's damaged goods or he's a core part of our team when he's healthy and he shouldn't be traded without replacing his valuable contribution to what we are attempting to build.

What specifically do you think I'm wrong about, other than my opinion that Zach contributes an essential skillset to the team Blazers are trying to build? I knew Zach was injured. Now I know his injury status has worsened. My opinion of Zach's skillset is unchanged. I'll wait for more information before declaring him damaged goods.

You're wrong about Zach being any good. He has shown moments over the last couple of years. That doesn't mean he's good, it just means he has the potential. Meyers Leonard had potential, we all heard about it from Olshey. Is Leonard any good? He's better offensively, better at the free throw line, and rebounds better. Collins is better defensively and better at blocking shots. Maybe you call it a wash, in which case, you come to the conclusion that Collins just isn't that good. I'd have him prove me wrong, but it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

[d-train]

What was that again about trading Zach being deconstructing the team d-wrong?...

Read on Twitter

I still stand by my theory that Zach is excessively injury prone, too much so to be counted on for the future, and is in no way "core" to this franchise's future.

Also probably tanks his interest from a team like Houston. Probably would just be considered mostly salary filler on their end.

Your previously stated theory was Zach wasn't any good. I guess you are adding a backdated addendum that Zach is hopelessly injury prone as well. Your backdated addendum is noted.

I don't know the condition of Zach's foot. He is either not a trade chip because he's damaged goods or he's a core part of our team when he's healthy and he shouldn't be traded without replacing his valuable contribution to what we are attempting to build.

What specifically do you think I'm wrong about, other than my opinion that Zach contributes an essential skillset to the team Blazers are trying to build? I knew Zach was injured. Now I know his injury status has worsened. My opinion of Zach's skillset is unchanged. I'll wait for more information before declaring him damaged goods.

You're wrong about Zach being any good. He has shown moments over the last couple of years. That doesn't mean he's good, it just means he has the potential. Meyers Leonard had potential, we all heard about it from Olshey. Is Leonard any good? He's better offensively, better at the free throw line, and rebounds better. Collins is better defensively and better at blocking shots. Maybe you call it a wash, in which case, you come to the conclusion that Collins just isn't that good. I'd have him prove me wrong, but it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

Meyers has almost none of Zach's skillset. They are completely different players. Leonard is a positional player because of his size and strength, but is limited by his lack of explosive athleticism. Zach has a real lack of Leonard's size and strength, but is an explosive athlete for a player of his size and length. Zach also instinctively makes better basketball decisions that Meyers or any average NBA player. I'm not talking about potential. I'm talking about skills Zach has that are valuable and rare.

[GEE]

Chad on the Warm-Up show was cheering hard for a Harden trade. I was never really more than 50/50, and that's without trading Zach. With the recent showings by CJ and GTJ in games, I've cooled quite a bit on the big & sexy trade for The Beard.

I doubt Dame is a big fan either. He has enough to deal with in Melo, a former Alpha-Dog. If you bring Harden to Portland, who's the Alpha-Dog then? Do you expect Harden to defer to Dame, an obviously inferior player?

Another reason I don't like it, aside from the questionable locker room fit, is that Harden would likely require us to consolidate many of the assets and financial flexibility that has taken years achieve. I'm not opposed to a big consolidation trade, I just want that trade to put us over the top in the next 5 years(Dame's prime).

I'm not sure what GTJ's and to a lesser point, Collin's ceilings even are right now. Not to mention, we've had just 3 games to see the like of ROCO/Jones Jr./Hood/Melo at the SF/PF, and Nurkic/Kanter is looking promising.

If Stotts now, can just figure out how to work GTJ and Simons into the PG/SG rotation, we might be better off than what we would have post Harden trade. I have never questioned the level of talent on this current roster, and Stotts needs to be like the conductor of an orchestra, and mange the rotations well. Been pretty good so far, but IMO needs to trim Dame and CJ's minutes a bit. GTJ needs at least 20 minutes, and Simons should be able to get a handful too.

It's good to see Stotts beginning to figure out this roster, Harden would totally wreck that.

[PDXKnight]

Chad on the Warm-Up show was cheering hard for a Harden trade. I was never really more than 50/50, and that's without trading Zach. With the recent showings by CJ and GTJ in games, I've cooled quite a bit on the big & sexy trade for The Beard.

I doubt Dame is a big fan either. He has enough to deal with in Melo, a former Alpha-Dog. If you bring Harden to Portland, who's the Alpha-Dog then? Do you expect Harden to defer to Dame, an obviously inferior player?

Another reason I don't like it, aside from the questionable locker room fit, is that Harden would likely require us to consolidate many of the assets and financial flexibility that has taken years achieve. I'm not opposed to a big consolidation trade, I just want that trade to put us over the top in the next 5 years(Dame's prime).

I'm not sure what GTJ's and to a lesser point, Collin's ceilings even are right now. Not to mention, we've had just 3 games to see the like of ROCO/Jones Jr./Hood/Melo at the SF/PF, and Nurkic/Kanter is looking promising.

If Stotts now, can just figure out how to work GTJ and Simons into the PG/SG rotation, we might be better off than what we would have post Harden trade. I have never questioned the level of talent on this current roster, and Stotts needs to be like the conductor of an orchestra, and mange the rotations well. Been pretty good so far, but IMO needs to trim Dame and CJ's minutes a bit. GTJ needs at least 20 minutes, and Simons should be able to get a handful too.

It's good to see Stotts beginning to figure out this roster, Harden would totally wreck that.

I haven’t cooled on harden one bit. It’d be huge for this franchise

[BlazersBroncos]

Another reason I don't like it, aside from the questionable locker room fit, is that Harden would likely require us to consolidate many of the assets and financial flexibility that has taken years achieve. I'm not opposed to a big consolidation trade, I just want that trade to put us over the top in the next 5 years(Dame's prime).

If Harden didnt have warts, he wouldnt be on the market. Talent wins and talent finds a way to fit. LBJ and Wade were both coming off 32%+ usage seasons when they joined forced in Miami. They made it work.

As for financial flexability, I have no idea what you are talking about. By summer 2022 we will be looking at 80M locked up in 2 guards who have shown over time to be nowhere near a duo that consistently gets you deep in the playoffs. That same summer Nurkic and Covington will be due big paydays as well. Hell, paying GTJ and ZC will put this team in cap hell starting 2021 and thats not even taking into account Kanter, Melo or the potential of DJJ opting out.

Harden doesnt get us out of cap hell, but he creates a team that is actually worth paying the lux tax for, because he immediately makes Portland and actual contender. Not to mention our squad with Dame and Harden would become attractive to vet min ring chasers. LAL had little depth last season, but got by on cheap ring chasing vets. We could become a team with that luxury.

Depth is great if its in support if elite players. Depth on its own doesnt do anything come playoff time.

As constructed this team is a pretender who would need all the bounces in the basketball world to go their way in order to make a WCF appearance.

Keeping the team intact because we have great depth is extremley short sighted because there is zero guarantee that depth isnt priced out of Portland in 2021. Paying GTJ as a backup SG and creating a near 100M guard trio is a terrible allocation of resourced, letting him walk sucks just as much and moving CJ to make room GTJ is the type of move that is made in video games, not real life.

Harden changes everything about the trajectory of this franchise.

[DaVoiceMaster]

Your previously stated theory was Zach wasn't any good. I guess you are adding a backdated addendum that Zach is hopelessly injury prone as well. Your backdated addendum is noted.

I don't know the condition of Zach's foot. He is either not a trade chip because he's damaged goods or he's a core part of our team when he's healthy and he shouldn't be traded without replacing his valuable contribution to what we are attempting to build.

What specifically do you think I'm wrong about, other than my opinion that Zach contributes an essential skillset to the team Blazers are trying to build? I knew Zach was injured. Now I know his injury status has worsened. My opinion of Zach's skillset is unchanged. I'll wait for more information before declaring him damaged goods.

You're wrong about Zach being any good. He has shown moments over the last couple of years. That doesn't mean he's good, it just means he has the potential. Meyers Leonard had potential, we all heard about it from Olshey. Is Leonard any good? He's better offensively, better at the free throw line, and rebounds better. Collins is better defensively and better at blocking shots. Maybe you call it a wash, in which case, you come to the conclusion that Collins just isn't that good. I'd have him prove me wrong, but it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

Meyers has almost none of Zach's skillset. They are completely different players. Leonard is a positional player because of his size and strength, but is limited by his lack of explosive athleticism. Zach has a real lack of Leonard's size and strength, but is an explosive athlete for a player of his size and length. Zach also instinctively makes better basketball decisions that Meyers or any average NBA player. I'm not talking about potential. I'm talking about skills Zach has that are valuable and rare.

And that's worked out so well for him. He's inconsistent as hell and the team cannot continue waiting for him to turn the corner. He is what he is and that is nothing special. Move on!

[Norm2953]

It does make me wonder if the specter of James Harden is messing with Dame's head for there is no question
Dame's position as the leader of this locker room would be jeopardized. There can't be any trade if Dame
does not sign off on trading his friend (CJ).

[d-train]

You're wrong about Zach being any good. He has shown moments over the last couple of years. That doesn't mean he's good, it just means he has the potential. Meyers Leonard had potential, we all heard about it from Olshey. Is Leonard any good? He's better offensively, better at the free throw line, and rebounds better. Collins is better defensively and better at blocking shots. Maybe you call it a wash, in which case, you come to the conclusion that Collins just isn't that good. I'd have him prove me wrong, but it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

Meyers has almost none of Zach's skillset. They are completely different players. Leonard is a positional player because of his size and strength, but is limited by his lack of explosive athleticism. Zach has a real lack of Leonard's size and strength, but is an explosive athlete for a player of his size and length. Zach also instinctively makes better basketball decisions that Meyers or any average NBA player. I'm not talking about potential. I'm talking about skills Zach has that are valuable and rare.

And that's worked out so well for him. He's inconsistent as hell and the team cannot continue waiting for him to turn the corner. He is what he is and that is nothing special. Move on!

You have 4 statements here. The first is irrelevant until now, after the news of Zach's recovery setback. The next 2 are nonsense and 100% BS. Your last statement, "move on,” makes great sense after news of Zach's setback. Our team is what it is now and a player with Zach's skillset is not available to our team.

The topic here is Harden. Does it make sense to add Harden to our team at the cost in talent and ongoing financial commitment?

Contrary to what some believe, this current team will not be a luxury tax paying team next year, not with the development of Zach's status. If we add $13M to our 7 committed contracts by trading CJ for Harden, then we would be a taxpayer team next year. With a Harden trade we are probably a taxpayer this year and a repeater-tax payer every year thereafter, until our team is completely dismantled. Harden is not a complementary piece. He is a centerpiece. We could upgrade our centerpiece to Harden. We would end up at best replicating the Rockets. The result of moving Lillard from centerpiece to complementary piece is unpredictable. I believe Lillard would compare well to CJ, but this is only a guess.

A pairing of Harden/Lillard will yield the same result as Lillard/CJ, or even Harden/CJ. The determining factor is what we have to complement the pair. I believe Nurk and our 5 SF's falls short. Our 5 SF's, intact or weakened still falls short with the Harden for CJ trade.

What do we get by adding Harden? We only need to look at what Rockets got for 8 of Harden's best years to know we don't get a championship.

[BlazersBroncos]

A pairing of Harden/Lillard will yield the same result as Lillard/CJ, or even Harden/CJ.

This is pure opinion stated as fact.

A pairing of Harden/Lillard will yield the same result as Lillard/CJ, or even Harden/CJ. The determining factor is what we have to complement the pair. I believe Nurk and our 5 SF's falls short.

Supporting casts dont win championships. Superstars do. Last season the Lakers won, easily, with two superstars, vet min guys, middling 3/D role players and an overpaid Danny Green at 15M. Look at the peripheral pieces on the Miami teams, vet min and journeymen for the most part. Look at the peripheral pieces in GSW, outside Iggy it was all castaways.

Adding Harden while losing CJ, all the young guys and future picks still leaves us with a deep team. Deeper I would argue than most of the winning teams above. Its likely Tucker could be added to the deal as well. Assuming it cost CJ, Collins, Trent Jr, Little, Simons and picks, we still would end up with:

G - Damian Lillard / James Harden
G - James Harden / Rodney Hood / CJ Elleby
F - Robert Covington / Derrick Jones Jr
F - PJ Tucker / Carmelo Anthony / Harry Giles
C - Jusuf Nurkic / Enes Kanter / Harry Giles

+ some available vet min fodder types (Napier, Illysova, etc) to fill the empty spots. That roster can win a chip, or come closer than we have come in years.

What do we get by adding Harden? We only need to look at what Rockets got for 8 of Harden's best years to know we don't get a championship.

This is beyond pure opinion, it is absolute nonsense. Using nothing but what a player has accomplished in the past to extrapolate their future impact on a new team would mean that Giannis would get us nowhere as he hasnt gotten into the finals yet. So hence, adding Giannis would not inch this team towards a finals appearance.

Harden has never played with someone as good as Dame, and something more, he has never played with another star who complimented his game as well as Dame. Yes, the fit isnt ideal, but its much better than Chris Paul or Russ Westbrick.

[d-train]

A pairing of Harden/Lillard will yield the same result as Lillard/CJ, or even Harden/CJ.

This is pure opinion stated as fact.

No! It's pure opinion stated as pure opinion

[d-train]

What do we get by adding Harden? We only need to look at what Rockets got for 8 of Harden's best years to know we don't get a championship.

This is beyond pure opinion, it is absolute nonsense. Using nothing but what a player has accomplished in the past to extrapolate their future impact on a new team would mean that Giannis would get us nowhere as he hasnt gotten into the finals yet. So hence, adding Giannis would not inch this team towards a finals appearance.

Harden has never played with someone as good as Dame, and something more, he has never played with another star who complimented his game as well as Dame. Yes, the fit isnt ideal, but its much better than Chris Paul or Russ Westbrick.

No, this is not pure opinion. Harden's 8 year record is pure fact. You can decide how this fact is predictive of the future, there will be different opinions. My opinion of Harden is his best days are past and many of his past teammates supported him as well as Blazers would support him. My opinion of Giannis is all of his best days are ahead.

[PDXKnight]

What do we get by adding Harden? We only need to look at what Rockets got for 8 of Harden's best years to know we don't get a championship.

This is beyond pure opinion, it is absolute nonsense. Using nothing but what a player has accomplished in the past to extrapolate their future impact on a new team would mean that Giannis would get us nowhere as he hasnt gotten into the finals yet. So hence, adding Giannis would not inch this team towards a finals appearance.

Harden has never played with someone as good as Dame, and something more, he has never played with another star who complimented his game as well as Dame. Yes, the fit isnt ideal, but its much better than Chris Paul or Russ Westbrick.

No, this is not pure opinion. Harden's 8 year record is pure fact. You can decide how this fact is predictive of the future, there will be different opinions. My opinion of Harden is his best days are past and many of his past teammates supported him as well as Blazers would support him. My opinion of Giannis is all of his best days are ahead.

Harden may be past his prime but he’s still pretty darn good and would be a huge upgrade for us

[d-train]

This is beyond pure opinion, it is absolute nonsense. Using nothing but what a player has accomplished in the past to extrapolate their future impact on a new team would mean that Giannis would get us nowhere as he hasnt gotten into the finals yet. So hence, adding Giannis would not inch this team towards a finals appearance.

Harden has never played with someone as good as Dame, and something more, he has never played with another star who complimented his game as well as Dame. Yes, the fit isnt ideal, but its much better than Chris Paul or Russ Westbrick.

No, this is not pure opinion. Harden's 8 year record is pure fact. You can decide how this fact is predictive of the future, there will be different opinions. My opinion of Harden is his best days are past and many of his past teammates supported him as well as Blazers would support him. My opinion of Giannis is all of his best days are ahead.

Harden may be past his prime but he’s still pretty darn good and would be a huge upgrade for us

Yes, he would be the same upgrade whether he replaced Lillard or CJ. He would be an upgrade in playmaking and scoring. How huge is the upgrade and would it make us contenders is the question. I don't see this as a move worth chasing. It would help to minimize the financial risk by trading Lillard, but I don't think it's a good gamble. Even if Rockets kicked in assets as incentive like Nuggets did in the Nurk trade, I'm not sure I would do it. The Nurk trade had more upside potential regardless of the additional incentive Nuggets gave.

[d-train]

Supporting casts dont win championships. Superstars do. Last season the Lakers won, easily, with two superstars, vet min guys, middling 3/D role players and an overpaid Danny Green at 15M. Look at the peripheral pieces on the Miami teams, vet min and journeymen for the most part. Look at the peripheral pieces in GSW, outside Iggy it was all castaways.

Adding Harden while losing CJ, all the young guys and future picks still leaves us with a deep team. Deeper I would argue than most of the winning teams above. Its likely Tucker could be added to the deal as well. Assuming it cost CJ, Collins, Trent Jr, Little, Simons and picks, we still would end up with:

G - Damian Lillard / James Harden
G - James Harden / Rodney Hood / CJ Elleby
F - Robert Covington / Derrick Jones Jr
F - PJ Tucker / Carmelo Anthony / Harry Giles
C - Jusuf Nurkic / Enes Kanter / Harry Giles

+ some available vet min fodder types (Napier, Illysova, etc) to fill the empty spots. That roster can win a chip, or come closer than we have come in years.

Yes, superstars win championships. I can't think of an example where a superstar won a championship until after his team built a supporting cast custom designed to support the superstar(s). It's interesting that the theoretical ideal supporting cast for Harden would be the same as for Lillard. So, you could say Blazers have been working towards the perfect Harden supporting cast for 5 years. I think the loss of Zach to injury is a blow to that supporting cast that was already shaky.