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Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury

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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#21 » by Wizenheimer » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:44 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:This is very different from the Meyers situation. Zach has a skillset that fits the modern NBA.


if being a weak positional rebounder who shoot 32% on three's while being a significantly overrated defender is a modern skillset, than yeah, he fits

BlazersBroncos wrote:He showed flashes of play at times his sophmore year that Meyers never did, especially in the playoffs where he posted a teriffic 2.2 DBPM over the run.


you're selling him short...he actually posted a 2.7 DBPM. BUT, he did so only averaging 17 minutes off the bench. That's too small a sample size to trust, especially considering his rank on the team (1st) was so far out of line with where he has ranked in each of his '3' seasons (about 8th-10th). Except for that one playoffs, Zach's DBPM hasn't been good

another gauge you can use is to compare individual defensive rating to the team's defensive rating. In Zach's 1st season, he was 0.6 points worse than the team. In his 2nd season, he was 0.5 points better than the team. Last season, not only was he 15th on the team in DBPM, he was 1.2 points worse than the team in defensive rating. Now, you can argue a sample size issue, and that would have weight. But you can also argue that the facts he increased his minutes by 10 a game and was suddenly facing starting PF's had something to do with it

by the way, he also had a -2.0 OBPM in those playoffs


BlazersBroncos wrote:He still has talent and potential and buying low on a cheap extension is the direction I would take. If he flames out, we get burnt but not too badly. If he balls out, we get a steal. If he falls in the middle, we have a 7M (Or so) salary ballast attached to a 7 footer who can defend and shoot the 3, something that may be appealing in future trades for a bigger contract as part of a package.


at least that argument doesn't rely on stats because frankly, there are really no good statistical arguments in favor of him

take the lack of favorable stats, and then add the very real possibility that he could end up missing half of the total games Portland will play in the 4 years of his rookie deal. That is not a resume that should be rewarded with a 3 year extension IMO, especially not with a deal at 2/3rds of a full MLE

now obviously, this is all subjective. I don't see the level of talent that you see, but my vision could be missing things. I also see a PF that does a poor job of defending speed on the perimeter and a C who is too easily dislodged from position by bigger stronger opponents in the paint. I think Zach is an average, at best, man defender. He is a good help defender though

as far as potential, how much is real and how much is mirage? If Zach misses the rest of this season, then he has a very concerning issue with his ankle. And, he will be 24 when next season starts. Nurkic was averaging 18 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists at 24. At a certain point, you have to start debiting that potential in the scorecard. The Blazers have spent a lot of time betting on the potential of bigs that never arrives over the last dozen years or so: Channing Frye, Joel Freeland, TRob, Meyers. Zach sure appears to be headed in the wrong direction.

the biggest problem in my view is that Zach is an Olshey project and Olshey has a bad habit of bidding against himself when he's dealing with one of his favorites. I'd like to see the market decide Zach's next deal because if he does miss the season, I think the market would be 2-4M a year rather than 7M
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#22 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:14 pm

Wiz, you make a number of good points. I do think Zach has a better, more unique skillset than the guys you listed. I too would let the market dictate his value if possible. Last season Kaminsky got a 1-year 4.7M deal. Zach is basically Frank with better defense and more of the P word attached to him still. I think we are seeing tall guys who can shoot the 3 get at least 4-5M on the open market. I dont think Zach gets less than that even with missing basically 2 years.

A 3/15 contract extension would be a very worthy gamble. I dont even consiter myself that high on ZC at this point, but I would pay that amount in a heartbeat. 3/20 gets riskier, but 6.8M or so for a two position backup big who can, again, defend well and shoot the 3 is not an overpay by any means.

Higher than Kaminsky, lower than Bjelica. Thats what I thought he was worth before the injury and even with this, I think its still in that ballpark.

Our limited avenues to improve make me hope we bring him back. We need to take risks and hope to hit. Even if he only becomes a manageable backup caliber big if the 3/15 or even 3/20 numbers are anywhere realistic, its a win IMO.

If a team wants to pay him on potential and ignore his injury history, I can still see him getting 4/40 type offers. At that point I walk away.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#23 » by Matt800 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:10 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:This is very different from the Meyers situation. Zach has a skillset that fits the modern NBA.


if being a weak positional rebounder who shoot 32% on three's while being a significantly overrated defender is a modern skillset, than yeah, he fits

BlazersBroncos wrote:He showed flashes of play at times his sophmore year that Meyers never did, especially in the playoffs where he posted a teriffic 2.2 DBPM over the run.


you're selling him short...he actually posted a 2.7 DBPM. BUT, he did so only averaging 17 minutes off the bench. That's too small a sample size to trust, especially considering his rank on the team (1st) was so far out of line with where he has ranked in each of his '3' seasons (about 8th-10th). Except for that one playoffs, Zach's DBPM hasn't been good


From what I remember he was playing notably different, and a large part of it might have been the reffing. He wasn't getting called for fouls that he frequently had been getting called for in the regular season. It looked like that had a huge role in him being able to play aggressively. But even if that is true, there isn't a guarantee that the refs would let him do that again. And even if he was able to consistently play as well as he has ever played, that wouldn't be amazing. It would definitely help though.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#24 » by d-train » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:30 pm

DusterBuster wrote:
d-train wrote:I suspected the mid January date was doubtful. This is worse than my negative suspicion.


TrAdInG CoLlInS iS dEconStRUCTiNg tHe TeAm!!1!

Imagine that, an injured player is not as good as a healthy player. Are you going to claim genius for this contribution? You are like the genius that predicted Len Bias would be an NBA bust after he died.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#25 » by d-train » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:44 pm

I am guessing without nearly enough information, but I will say Zach is not only out this year. He will miss most if not all next year.

This does not put him in good position to get any contract. I wouldn't be surprised if Blazers want to continue rehabbing Zach, they could sign him to a 1-year VME. It makes sense for Zach, as well. Bird rights are an asset to player and team. Zach will be an UFA the summer of 2022. He could be a completely rehabbed UFA, if everything goes well for him.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#26 » by d-train » Fri Jan 1, 2021 12:59 am

Wizenheimer wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:This is very different from the Meyers situation. Zach has a skillset that fits the modern NBA.


if being a weak positional rebounder who shoot 32% on three's while being a significantly overrated defender is a modern skillset, than yeah, he fits

BlazersBroncos wrote:He showed flashes of play at times his sophmore year that Meyers never did, especially in the playoffs where he posted a teriffic 2.2 DBPM over the run.


you're selling him short...he actually posted a 2.7 DBPM. BUT, he did so only averaging 17 minutes off the bench. That's too small a sample size to trust, especially considering his rank on the team (1st) was so far out of line with where he has ranked in each of his '3' seasons (about 8th-10th). Except for that one playoffs, Zach's DBPM hasn't been good

another gauge you can use is to compare individual defensive rating to the team's defensive rating. In Zach's 1st season, he was 0.6 points worse than the team. In his 2nd season, he was 0.5 points better than the team. Last season, not only was he 15th on the team in DBPM, he was 1.2 points worse than the team in defensive rating. Now, you can argue a sample size issue, and that would have weight. But you can also argue that the facts he increased his minutes by 10 a game and was suddenly facing starting PF's had something to do with it

by the way, he also had a -2.0 OBPM in those playoffs


BlazersBroncos wrote:He still has talent and potential and buying low on a cheap extension is the direction I would take. If he flames out, we get burnt but not too badly. If he balls out, we get a steal. If he falls in the middle, we have a 7M (Or so) salary ballast attached to a 7 footer who can defend and shoot the 3, something that may be appealing in future trades for a bigger contract as part of a package.


at least that argument doesn't rely on stats because frankly, there are really no good statistical arguments in favor of him

take the lack of favorable stats, and then add the very real possibility that he could end up missing half of the total games Portland will play in the 4 years of his rookie deal. That is not a resume that should be rewarded with a 3 year extension IMO, especially not with a deal at 2/3rds of a full MLE

now obviously, this is all subjective. I don't see the level of talent that you see, but my vision could be missing things. I also see a PF that does a poor job of defending speed on the perimeter and a C who is too easily dislodged from position by bigger stronger opponents in the paint. I think Zach is an average, at best, man defender. He is a good help defender though

as far as potential, how much is real and how much is mirage? If Zach misses the rest of this season, then he has a very concerning issue with his ankle. And, he will be 24 when next season starts. Nurkic was averaging 18 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists at 24. At a certain point, you have to start debiting that potential in the scorecard. The Blazers have spent a lot of time betting on the potential of bigs that never arrives over the last dozen years or so: Channing Frye, Joel Freeland, TRob, Meyers. Zach sure appears to be headed in the wrong direction.

the biggest problem in my view is that Zach is an Olshey project and Olshey has a bad habit of bidding against himself when he's dealing with one of his favorites. I'd like to see the market decide Zach's next deal because if he does miss the season, I think the market would be 2-4M a year rather than 7M

Yes, it's all very subjective no matter how many BS stats you want to look at. And, the sample size is also irrelevant. One player doesn't make a team on defense and a good defensive team isn't made by 1 player.

Channing Frye, Joel Freeland, TRob, and Meyers have nothing of relevance in common with Zach.

I don't see Zach getting any multi-year deal, unless this injury is more minor than it appears. Personally, I don't see how it can be sugar coated. It sounds bad to me. Time will tell.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#27 » by HoopsFanAZ » Fri Jan 1, 2021 6:08 pm

The reporting has said it’s “hairline.” Revision surgery isn’t great, but if it corrects an issue from the first surgery and his rehab, good. I simply lack the information necessary to be optimistic or pessimistic about the results of the 2nd surgery.

His offers next summer go down and for fewer years. Common sense. A guesstimate of less than 4 years and less than $10 million per.
Again, this is based on truly incomplete information.

As to Collins’ worth excluding the ankle, how many negative (or pretty qualified) comments have I heard from players, management and media? Not much. Has Collins simply not been mentioned — as in not worth mentioning? No. He gets the mentions. Relevant stats to form a really positive argument are lacking but tempered with a lack of sample size. Not having sample size is not a positive.

There are early warning signs on his health but FAR less serious than that of Giles. Hopefully, both guys are getting this out of their systems. 2nd contracts for both are likely on the cheaper side ... good for the Blazers’ team salary. Like Nurkic, health, development, and showing out make all the difference.

Happy New Year to all!
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#28 » by d-train » Fri Jan 1, 2021 7:53 pm

I don't want to be a pessimist, but I sense bad news management.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#29 » by BigLurch92 » Fri Jan 1, 2021 11:03 pm

God damn. So unfortunate. Always try to view things from a glass half full POV but you just gotta think this just might be the tone and trajectory of his career. As stated before maybe we get him cheap on his second contract and he can somehow avoid future injuries however at this rate the latter seems less then likely.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#30 » by Matt800 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 12:56 am

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/trail-blazers/zach-collins-reunite-trail-blazers-cast-gloves-will-come-soon-enough

Sounds like his fracture grew so he had the 2nd surgery. They don't know exactly why it grew. The doctors did a more in depth process this time and they are "extremely confident" that this will heal for him. The time table is 4-6 months like the last one. But the team doesn't have a return scheduled, probably to not put pressure on him. Also the initial fracture is thought to be from bone spurs. Who knows how plausible that is. But Zach and those watching him seem to be having a more detailed approach to his health now so hopefully he will get healthy.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#31 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Feb 4, 2021 1:32 am

God damn. So unfortunate. Always try to view things from a glass half full POV but you just gotta think this just might be the tone and trajectory of his career. As stated before maybe we get him cheap on his second contract and he can somehow avoid future injuries however at this rate the latter seems less then likely.


I still take him back on a team friendly deal. 3/12M or something like that. Risk easily worth reward.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#32 » by HoopsFanAZ » Thu Feb 4, 2021 5:24 am

1 year guarantee low cost with team option on 2nd year. Player option if he plays X number of games with reachable numbers if he's playing. Both sides get an out -- Portland if it doesn't work out. Collins to get a better contract if it does. No reason to cut bait. He just doesn't get a Meyers Contract.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#33 » by DaVoiceMaster » Thu Feb 4, 2021 9:53 am

Speaking of Meyers, he's out for the season, as well with a bad shoulder.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#34 » by Wizenheimer » Thu Feb 4, 2021 4:53 pm

DaVoiceMaster wrote:Speaking of Meyers, he's out for the season, as well with a bad shoulder.


yeah, I saw that

I might be wrong but I think it's the same shoulder he injured 3 times while in Portland
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#35 » by d-train » Fri Feb 5, 2021 1:32 am

If Zach returns, it will probably be for the QO on his 5th year. If Blazers don't make the QO or Zach doesn't accept, Zach is likely gone via free agency. My guess is Zach will be back on a 1-year QO, $7.5M I believe. Zach will have to wait another year for his big contract, but he will get $7.5M while he waits.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#36 » by Soulyss » Fri Feb 5, 2021 4:38 pm

d-train wrote:If Zach returns, it will probably be for the QO on his 5th year. If Blazers don't make the QO or Zach doesn't accept, Zach is likely gone via free agency. My guess is Zach will be back on a 1-year QO, $7.5M I believe. Zach will have to wait another year for his big contract, but he will get $7.5M while he waits.


I doubt that.. No one is going to pay that for him coming off another injury. I suspect that they will do something like 3/9M with the third year being a player option. He is young, he is guaranteed about what he would have earned had they picked up his QO, but it gives him some time to rebuild himself without everything being on "NEXT YEAR". If he pops he would re-enter the market at 25, before his prime... it's a good deal for everyone.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#37 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Feb 5, 2021 5:17 pm

Ya, the QO is far too rich for me. And we get no benefit, overpay him for one season and if he balls out he will cost more than 7.5M. If he stinks, its a waste of 7.5M. There is little reward for going that route. With his injuries he needs to take a deal that PDX can win on if he stays healthy, but also pays him decently if he doesnt. Its more of a win for both sides to get him back a something like 3-4M AV over 3 years w/ a PO on Y3.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#38 » by d-train » Fri Feb 5, 2021 11:55 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:Ya, the QO is far too rich for me. And we get no benefit, overpay him for one season and if he balls out he will cost more than 7.5M. If he stinks, its a waste of 7.5M. There is little reward for going that route. With his injuries he needs to take a deal that PDX can win on if he stays healthy, but also pays him decently if he doesnt. Its more of a win for both sides to get him back a something like 3-4M AV over 3 years w/ a PO on Y3.

The cost is going to be much greater than the $7.3M QO. Even if Blazers make some deep and painful cuts, that $7.3M is likely going to be mostly (if not all) over the tax threshold. The question is, how do we add all the skills we need at the cheapest price. Zach, if he is healthy, plugs holes that can't be filled at any price. If we had an option to buy AD or Giannis, we could rework the roster and check all the boxes without Zach, but this isn't reality. It also isn't reality to just get the best guy that fits the suit, Giles, any say problem solved. If Zach can play, he is an aggressive, competitive, mobile 7 footer that can move with any size player. He anticipates the game and uses his length extremely well. His offensive skills are decent enough that he isn't a liability. I believe we are going to spend that money because it buys us valuable skills that ordinarily we can't get.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#39 » by zzaj » Sun Feb 7, 2021 9:50 pm

I was into the Zach pick as a no frills, low ceiling, glue type player that could fit on any team if he met his potential.

As it stands, he's not really improved and he seems to have a body not willing to take the rigors of the NBA. IMHO, you either keep him very, very cheap or move on.
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Re: Zach Collins Out Indefinitely w/ Revision Surgery on Previous Injury 

Post#40 » by d-train » Sun Feb 7, 2021 10:23 pm

In that interview he said the first fracture was caused by bone spurs. That sounds very concerning to me. Potentially, what caused the bone spurs to form could be career threatening.
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