Petrie and the point forward/scoring guard combo

[BMiller52]

Perhaps the upswing has begun, and maybe we do have some nice pieces to build around (although it's still too early for me to say Hawes is destined to be the great player some here think he is) but the fact still remains that we are a long way from being contenders, which I assume everyone here wants.
I'm saying I feel better with the idea of taking our time and letting Geoff build the sort of team he wants, as well as the sort of team Theus feels comfortable with. Rather than mortgaging the team's future to try and land Dirk, or Arenas, or Jermaine O'Neal, etc. Even if we could offer something for these player (and I emphasize the if) I wouldn't want to give up all of our draft picks and young players for one guy, who for all I know could end up injured, or unhappy, or whatever.

'

With JO I really doubt you give up the franchise so to speak. Hell it would probably only take Miller and our pick and a guy like Salmons actually considering JO's injurys/contract/Indy's situation.

Oh and you run the same risk with taking your time as far as the injuries or unhappiness or whatever goes. If we continue to be a garbage team I can see Martin asking out eventually, he is a good player he isn't going to want to be the man on a **** team. Same with Ron and you aren't getting fair value for Ron. Martin already got pissed at Reggie so I don't see why it's far-fetched to think he'll ask out eventually if we're in the lottery 3-4 more years building our team.

[wiltchamberlain]

Number one, if you want a star in the prime of his career I don't know why you'd want Jermaine, it seems like his best days are behind him.

Number two the situation with Kevin I think illustrates my point, Martin can be as pissy as he wants and it's only one piece of several out of wack, so to speak. You don't think a guy like Dirk, or Arenas would be a hundred times worse than Kevin? (And this is still assuming you could give something their teams would want in return, personally I'd like it if in a couple of months you run your trade ideas by the Mavs, and Wizard fans to get their opinion.)

Lastly, I think the Kevin, Theus thing was blown out of proportion. I don't think it will be a major issue going forward.

[Ballings7]

Well, a proposed Dirk era wouldn't be the true "win-now" stage this team should eventually reach. Because obviously, a Brad and/or Hawes/Dirk starting PF/C tandem isn't going to do too much in the playoffs.

I would be into it in ways, because it'd help with the experience of the younger players, assuming we make the playoffs. Which along with making noise, would be what I think the intention of getting Dirk would be.

And if we actually commit to build around Dirk/Kevin/Hawes and get some more veteran guys, to try and contend? I'm not into that, and it won't work.

However, I doubt were going to get Dirk.

[BMiller52]

Well, a proposed Dirk era wouldn't be the true "win-now" stage this team should eventually reach. Because obviously, a Brad and/or Hawes/Dirk starting PF/C tandem isn't going to do too much in the playoffs.

I would be into it in ways, because it'd help with the experience of the younger players, assuming we make the playoffs. Which along with making noise, would be what I think the intention of getting Dirk would be.

And if we actually commit to build around Dirk/Kevin/Hawes and get some more veteran guys, to try and contend? I'm not into that, and it won't work.

However, I doubt were going to get Dirk.

I never said build around Dirk/Kevin/Hawes it'd be build around Dirk/Kevin/RON if you could get the Mavs to do that deal(which you probably couldn't but I was using them as AN EXAMPLE because I am thinking a lot of teams are going to blow it up after they get swept). But if you've actually read my hypothetical trades you'd know Miller and Hawes wouldn't even be here if we got Dirk.

Number one, if you want a star in the prime of his career I don't know why you'd want Jermaine, it seems like his best days are behind him.

Number two the situation with Kevin I think illustrates my point, Martin can be as pissy as he wants and it's only one piece of several out of wack, so to speak. You don't think a guy like Dirk, or Arenas would be a hundred times worse than Kevin? (And this is still assuming you could give something their teams would want in return, personally I'd like it if in a couple of months you run your trade ideas by the Mavs, and Wizard fans to get their opinion.)

Lastly, I think the Kevin, Theus thing was blown out of proportion. I don't think it will be a major issue going forward.

Jermaine isn't as bad as the year he had last year, I actually think he could bounce back pretty easily if he was motivated(similar to KG) and his price isn't going to be nearly as high as guys like Dirk/GIl. So I mean people's expectations are pretty much a no-win situation if you are trying to think of a trade for a guy who can put this team at the next level. If you want to get a guy who is a star at a bargain price you're going to be taking risks by getting a guy like JO whose value isn't 100% like it should be.

So it's okay if we just piss off our best young player? Oh right but it's okay because we all know that a guy like Kevin wants to wait 4 more years until we're in the playoffs. Besides, if we're winning a guy that's a superstar isn't going to complain about anything. If we have 3 stars(Martin/Artest/Dirk or Martin/Artest/JO or Martin/Artest/Gil or Martin/Artest/whoever) then that is a GOOD TEAM. Nobody is going to get pissy if they're on a 55 win team or whatever with 2 other all star calibre players, look at the Celtics. Get real man.

[_SRV_]

We're not getting Dirk, we don't have the pieces and Dirk isn't Dallas' problem right now, they will solve their issues elsewhere, but, for argument's sake, false hope seeding and just for funsies, the proposed deal is Hawes, picks and filler for Dirk (the filler would have to be big contract and have some value so I'll assume it to be Miller), we'll have, Dirk, Artest, Martin and Beno in the 4 positions, along with nice wings on the bench (I suppose 2 of Garcia, Douby and Salmons would be kept) and some contracts to wheel and deal (Moore, SAR and KT), Geoff will have harder time finding the kitchen in his own house, than the complementary players for this group to contend.

[Ballings7]

Well that's a different situation then... I'd be more into that as a whole for sure, the 5th guy has to be a good defensive center, though.

While the players with Dirk differ from what Dirk has had in Dallas, I'd still be kinda iffy on Dirk as the #1 guy. I think the chances of him doing better are improved though, because the offensive ability next to him is better and more diverse, more paint-oriented than what is with Dallas.

[BMiller52]

We're not getting Dirk, we don't have the pieces and Dirk isn't Dallas' problem right now, they will solve their issues elsewhere, but, for argument's sake, false hope seeding and just for funsies, the proposed deal is Hawes, picks and filler for Dirk (the filler would have to be big contract and have some value so I'll assume it to be Miller), we'll have, Dirk, Artest, Martin and Beno in the 4 positions, along with nice wings on the bench (I suppose 2 of Garcia, Douby and Salmons would be kept) and some contracts to wheel and deal (Moore, SAR and KT), Geoff will have harder time finding the kitchen in his own house, than the complementary players for this group to contend.

I disagree. But lets say that's too much to give up and contend, well then go for JO and deal them Miller/Salmons/our pick for JO. You are betting JO has a bounceback year but it's actually a more complimentary group than Martin/Artest/Dirk(lets just say I am pretty damn sure that JO will play a lot more like his old self next year, and I have a good reason to be). Then you have Beno/Martin/Artest/JO/Hawes(who I think could start as early as next year, if not then just put Moore there but he was pretty good when he started this year) and you have some depth on the bench with 1 of Spencer/Mikki, Cisco, Douby, your 2 2nd round picks(guys like DJ White and Joey Dorsey would be able to contribute immediately a lot like Powe and Davis do for Boston, or Landry does for Houston, or Millsap does for Utah). So that team would even have decent depth.

There is going to be more possibilities out there and I think it sucks that you guys are focusing on random examples more than the point itself, which is that with all these teams that could be making big changes and getting older(Dal/PHX/DEN in the West, WAS/TO/Indy in the east) there will be opportunities to get ourselves back in the game. I mean Phoenix has 4 starters over 30(Bell is 31, Nash is 34, Hill is 36, Shaq is 36). Dallas has 3 starters over 30(Kidd is 36, Dampier is 33, Stackhouse is 35, Dirk is 29 or 30, Howard is 28). Denver has 4 guys over 30(Camby is 32, Martin is 30, AI is 33, Carter is 31 or whatever). The Spurs are getting old but I don't really see them falling off. But that's 3 teams I listed who could blow it up and end up missing the playoffs next year due to players declining. Meanwhile our 2 best players are coming into their prime. If you guys don't see this as an opportunity to do something I dunno what to say.

[BMiller52]

Well that's a different situation then... I'd be more into that as a whole for sure, the 5th guy has to be a good defensive center, though.

While the players with Dirk differ from what Dirk has had in Dallas, I'd still be kinda iffy on Dirk as the #1 guy. I think the chances of him doing better are improved though, because the offensive ability next to him is better and more diverse, more paint-oriented than what is with Dallas.

Thank you! Finally someone who sees it from my point of view. And I'm not even saying "lets get Dirk!1!!1!" I just used him as an example.

[_SRV_]

-= original quote snipped =-



I disagree. But lets say that's too much to give up and contend, well then go for JO and deal them Miller/Salmons/our pick for JO. You are betting JO has a bounceback year but it's actually a more complimentary group than Martin/Artest/Dirk(lets just say I am pretty damn sure that JO will play a lot more like his old self next year, and I have a good reason to be). Then you have Beno/Martin/Artest/JO/Hawes(who I think could start as early as next year, if not then just put Moore there but he was pretty good when he started this year) and you have some depth on the bench with 1 of Spencer/Mikki, Cisco, Douby, your 2 2nd round picks(guys like DJ White and Joey Dorsey would be able to contribute immediately a lot like Powe and Davis do for Boston, or Landry does for Houston, or Millsap does for Utah). So that team would even have decent depth.

There is going to be more possibilities out there and I think it sucks that you guys are focusing on random examples more than the point itself, which is that with all these teams that could be making big changes and getting older(Dal/PHX/DEN in the West, WAS/TO/Indy in the east) there will be opportunities to get ourselves back in the game. I mean Phoenix has 4 starters over 30(Bell is 31, Nash is 34, Hill is 36, Shaq is 36). Dallas has 3 starters over 30(Kidd is 36, Dampier is 33, Stackhouse is 35, Dirk is 29 or 30, Howard is 28). Denver has 4 guys over 30(Camby is 32, Martin is 30, AI is 33, Carter is 31 or whatever). The Spurs are getting old but I don't really see them falling off. But that's 3 teams I listed who could blow it up and end up missing the playoffs next year due to players declining. Meanwhile our 2 best players are coming into their prime. If you guys don't see this as an opportunity to do something I dunno what to say.

I'm saying if such trade goes down we will be contenders, easily, I just don't see the trade happening, and I agree, there are a lot of scenarios around the league to look for a trade with, I mentioned some of them in other thread

[wiltchamberlain]

You're the one that needs to get real. There is no way, I repeat no way we can get a franchise player for any of these deals you've mentioned so far. Go ahead and try to propose these on the trade board, see what people think, I'm sure teams will be more than willing to trade their best player for an overpaid, unathletic big and the 12 pick.

And for the record, you're damn right I don't care if Martin gets pissed, he's an athlete in his twenties, he's still practically a kid, I don't know how long you've been a sports fan but let me assure you, twenty year old athletes will bitch every now and again.

[BMiller52]

You're the one that needs to get real. There is no way, I repeat no way we can get a franchise player for any of these deals you've mentioned so far. Go ahead and try to propose these on the trade board, see what people think, I'm sure teams will be more than willing to trade their best player for an overpaid, unathletic big and the 12 pick.

And for the record, you're damn right I don't care if Martin gets pissed, he's an athlete in his twenties, he's still practically a kid, I don't know how long you've been a sports fan but let me assure you, twenty year old athletes will bitch every now and again.

I'm not even saying we CAN get a franchise player for Miller and #12. I'm saying EXPLORE YOUR MOTHERFKING OPTIONS. THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING. And quite frankly I don't give a damn what idiots on the trade board think. That boards full of homers, knick fans, and people who overrate certain players. What I am saying is there WILL be star players out there on the trading block this summer, and we should EXPLORE getting one. Am I saying the Mavs will say yes to one of the offers for Dirk I've talked about for sure? No I'm not saying that. I'm saying you might as well offer that. And to be honest I think Spencer has a lot more value around the league than you give him credit for. He's a 7 feet tall 19 year old who's a better offensive player than half the bigs in the league and was going head to head with Chandler, Camby, etc. when he finally got minutes towards the end of the season. He will have some value. Same with #12. Then you have to see if you can find a 3rd team with expirings for a guy like Miller or Salmons or whoever in a deal for a star player. I've already said if you can't get Dirk, then you move on to the next star, and you keep going down the list until you find a star that has similar value to the package you can offer and you decide if it makes you a contender without gutting your team too badly.

Oh and you should probably care if Martin gets pissed considering the fact that when he was pissed earlier in the season at Reggie, it definitely effected his play on the court(which is what you should be worried about). Or he could demand a trade if we go through 4 more years of being a loser team. By then he'll be a 29 year old 25 PPG scorer surrounded by a bunch of guys 4-5 years younger than he is. Sorry but players in the NBA decline around their early 30s, he's 25 right now(someone correct me if I'm wrong), so you have probably 6 or 7 years where he'll be in his prime. You waste 4 of those years rebuilding, I don't think he'll appreciate having half of his prime being wasted on a garbage team but maybe that's just me. Sorry but I am sick of this team sucking ass, and if we go for the full on rebuild that's something that takes time. So you might as well deal Martin too if you want to go down that road because it'll be a while before you make the playoffs. Atleast 3 or 4 years. Portland still hasn't made it back to the playoffs since they had to rebuild in 03. That's like 5 years. It took NO 4 years to get to the playoffs. It will take you a while to even sniff the playoffs if you tear the team apart so you might as well deal Martin too.

I can't understand this "come on guys lets be losers!!!!!!" mentality some of you have going on. I just don't understand it. If you're tanking a season to get a guy like Oden when you have injuries and you're missing the playoffs anyway, I understand that. But just throwing your team away is ignorant. Look at the Celtics, they had 1 of 2 paths available to them. They could've traded Pierce who wanted a trade unless they put vet players around him and he was unhappy. They could've built around Jefferson, that 5 pick, and whatever they got for Pierce. They probably don't make the playoffs for 3-4 years, and they don't contend for 5-6 atleast IMO. Or they could trade for KG and Ray, putting actual veterans about Pierce and now they have a great shot at a title for the next 3 or 4 years.

edit: And my "get real" comment was directed at you saying Arenas/Nowitzki would get bitchy if they were traded here. Well sorry, but if they're surrounded by Martin/Artest they aren't going to get bitchy.

[wiltchamberlain]

Alright look man I don't think were that far apart. I just said a couple of posts ago that I'm not against shopping around so on that much I think we are in agreement. I'm just saying one has to be realistic in what to expect. As far as Spencer goes I don't think I'm not giving him enough credit, sure I'm not like Grant Napear who says every time he gets a chance that Spencer is absolutely positively going to be an all star in three or four years. I don't say that because of the very little amount of time we've actually seen him on the floor. Sure what limited time we've seen looks nice, but he played limited minuets this past year. Next,as far as Martin goes I'm sure he'll be fine, while he is still a young man and therefore prone to the folly of pride, (as was displayed as you mention earlier in the season, and with the more recent Sac Bee business) he still managed to be professional and play well the vast majority of the season.

I'd also like to say that I've never recommended tanking. (although I assume when you say that you're not talking about me personally, but more an overall mentality of several people here)

I think that overall were not that diametrically opposed, I just think I'm more willing to be patient than you are. A team is rarely built overnight, teams like the Celtics, while admirable, are not typical. Teams take time, often years of drafts and trades and signings. You say your tired of this team being terrible, I am too, how do you think I felt in the 80s and 90s when this team was a laughingstock. I don't want to go back to those days. But at the same time I am realistic, I've been an NBA fan long enough to know that when a team is bad they can tend to be bad for a long time. You're tired of this team being bad, well they've only been bad for two years, and this year we've seen many improvements. Why before this year I was getting nervous that the bad old days were going to come back, but actually right now I'm fairly positive, I'm happy to see some steady improvement.

Sorry for talking so much I'm almost done.

In wrapping this up I just want to say that I think some fans are getting impatient, and that to some extent is okay, it hurts losing. But consider the fact we've only been losing for 2 years, how long did the Cavs lose before Lebron, the Nuggets before Carmelo, think of all the losing teams like Dallas, Pheonix, New Jersey, Portland, Chicago, and even Sacramento had to go through to get their chance to shine.

Incidentally my get real comment was directed at your belief that we are going to get an all star this offseason to play next to Kevin and Ron. I think that if by some chance we manage to pull of some amazing trade, one of those two will be going.

[sackings916]

bmiller- Your dream lineup of Beno/Martin/Artest/JO/Hawes is a bottom seed at best and wouldnt get it done in the west. (and dont you hate Artest and want him off the team? Replace Artest in that lineup with Salmons or Garcia and that team probably doesn't even make the playoffs.)