ImageImageImageImageImage

The future of the Sac Kings....

Moderators: KF10, codydaze

User avatar
pillwenney
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 48,887
And1: 2,603
Joined: Sep 19, 2004
Location: Avidly reading pstyousuck.blogspot.com/
Contact:
 

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#61 » by pillwenney » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:34 pm

deNIEd wrote:*The new quote is annoying, it keeps all of the old quotes and gets too long/messy*

Mitch - Like Cruel just said, it takes a raping deal to get something done. They may come around once a year, or once every 2-3 years, but I really don't think its worth banking on getting a deal like that. You can't expect to be able to pull of a Gasol for Kwame deal as part of your franchises' rebuilding plan. It just doesn't work out like that, otherwise every team would be amazing.

Because being under the cap is extremely helpful. (About Brad). Look at Seattle and what being under the cap did for them with the Kurt Thomas deal. They were still under the cap, and netted 4 picks. Perhaps if we were under the cap this year, we could make a run at a player like Josh Smith or Jose Calderon. You never know. Its extremely unlikely any team will give a lopsided trade for Miller. Keeping Miller does nothing at all. We have three young bigs, Hawes, Sheldon, Thompson, all who require minutes. Miller will most likely be a little shy of 1/3 of the total minutes for our PF/C rotations. Throw in Moore and you are looking at near 60% of our total rotational minutes. Like you've said, a player like Miller/Artest isn't going to take sitting on the bench very well at all.

I think, it also comes down to the priorities of the team. Currently, its not to win. Currently its to develop our young players, Garcia/Martin/Hawes/Sheldon/Thompson/Singletary/Quincy/Ewing as much as we can, in the shortest time possible.

Say 2 years from now comes along, and a big name FA may possibly look at Sacramento, unless he sees a team that he believes he can win with, he won't be coming unless our young players are developed.


I agree that you can't really rely on an awesome trade--just like you can't rely on finding a franchise player through the draft. Both are total crapshoots. But at least if you look to acquire talent via trade, you won't suck so much afterwards.

But being under the cap isn't really worth it unless you are significantly under the cap. Like we could possibly get a decent amount of capspace for next summer if we dump Brad, but will that really be worth using when we could otherwise have a ton of capspace the year after? Yeah there are deals like the Kurt Thomas ones, but those aren't exactly common.

And the rest of your argument goes to an argument I've had with SKZZZ a million times--that giving a player a ton of playing time does not necessarily help him that all that much. There's a reason that players don't improve that much throughout a season usually--true player improvement and development happens over the summer. If the player is ready to contribute, then he should get time. But if the guy hasn't put in the work to improve his game, he shouldn't get entitlement minutes just because he's young. That can hurt his work ethic.

Kevin Martin is a perfect example of a guy that didn't get "development minutes" when he first came into the league. But he took that as a sign that he needed to improve. So he worked his butt off, and eventually, his opportunity came. And with Spencer last year--he didn't get minutes because "oh he's our lottery pick, so we have to give him minutes!" He got minutes because he was our 3rd best big off the bench.

It's not like these guys are trying to get minutes over Tim Duncan here. Mikki isn't all that great of a player. And I'd say the starting PF spot is up for grabs right now. The point is though that I think working for a players' playing time is what separates the men from the boys. Some guys take the challenge and work their butts off (Kevin), and become contributors in this league, and some don't. But I can name a bunch of players in this league that got all of the "development" minutes in the world, and failed because they never had to develop any kind of work ethic.
deNIEd
Banned User
Posts: 4,942
And1: 30
Joined: Jul 18, 2006

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#62 » by deNIEd » Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:11 am

Draft and trade are not both the same.

Draft, you don't even know if there will be one at all in which one team rapes the other team.
Draft, you know there are a few players in the draft class that will greatly help the team (except for minor exceptions), even then, you can find someone good.

Trade - depends on the other teams
Draft - depends on the GM/staff's skill level
SacKingZZZ
RealGM
Posts: 24,085
And1: 1,084
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Location: "Look at me, Dave, look. Come and touch it, Dave."

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#63 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:58 am

mitchweber wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
mitchweber wrote:The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.


Which can't even be said with a straight face can it? The difference is Brad would understand it's the best thing for the franchise long term and be a team guy.

How many freaking hopeless All-star breaks do we need for craps sake!!! I mean, c'mon, the record is broken already. Ron is still in contract phase. He wants the money but the truth is there, trust me. As I have said before it's just as much the organizations fault if they are telling this is the right situation for him at this point.



I'll say this much--you do a good job of hiding your subtle bias against Ron.

Implying that Ron wouldn't be a team guy is ridiculous. The team was trying to "win now" all season long until it became basically impossible to make the playoffs. That's how the Maloofs want to do it IMO. The issue was just that we started it before we were mathematically out, and that was what Ron had a problem with. But you continually blow what was basically a passing comment way out of proportion, particularly when you imply stuff like that. Ron isn't stopping this team from getting where it wants to go any more than John, Mikki or Brad. I mean really, do you honestly think Brad would be content with sitting on the bench in the middle of the season and watching our young guys lose games that we would win if he were playing? Do you think he really cares that little about winning?


Oh give me a break! I have said many times before and still say that if putting a legit team around Ron Artest within his timeframe was possible I'd say go for it!!! IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! If it were some sort transition would be heading that way by now. It hasn't, and doesn't look like it's going to any time soon. If anything it's gone completely the opposite way. I see a team being built that fits much better around Kevin Martin than Ron Artest.

I am sure Brad cares about winning. And WHOEVER is on the court I hope they do their all to try to win. But it is in the organizations best interest sometimes, and most of the time for a REBUILDING TEAM, to prepare their youth for the eventual transition. And that transition could be pretty soon by the looks of our salary cap. My question is why waste any more time???
SacKingZZZ
RealGM
Posts: 24,085
And1: 1,084
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Location: "Look at me, Dave, look. Come and touch it, Dave."

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#64 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:05 am

mitchweber wrote:It's not about wanting to contend right now. Nobody thinks we can contend right now except for Ron.

It is, however, about competing right now because no casual fan (the vast majority of every fanbase) wants to watch a team in full rebuild. It's not that the Maloofs are in a fantasy world, it's that they don't want the fans to lose all interest in the team--especially after interest dropped this year even though the team wasn't even that bad!

And sure our team doesn't have adequate talent right now, but we have time. We'll have tons of expiring contracts next year that we can either use in a trade or use to draw in a FA. Before that summer we will have two late lotto selections by Geoff Petrie (probably).

And interestingly enough, if you look at the 4 teams in the conference finals this year, the Spurs were the only team that were built with an exceptionally high draft pick (albeit the Lakers were in a special circumstance with Kobe).

The Celtics and Pistons were both built without top picks. Pierce was a #10 pick (not as high as you seem to want to go) and everything else on both teams was acquired with a later pick or via trade.

I think it all boils down to value and one has to determine if the difference in value between say the #10 pick and the #5 pick really makes up for the difference when you trade Artest, Miller, Salmons etc. for pennies on the dollar, and when you lose money because the fans don't care about the team as much any more.


And on the flipside what fan wants to watch a team built around a player or players that most likely won't be here much longer?

And I contend that we don't have time. Not with Ron Artest. Why re-sign him, knowing the reality about doing so, to keep a team that isn't even 8th seed worthy at this point? We have too many young players, and more than a few with MAJOR promise. We need to take the steps now to be able to keep that together. I see that improving in time. Not a team of Ron Artest, Mikki Moore, and Brad Miller.

And the Celtics did to what you are supposed to do! They played the crap out of guys like Al Jefferson, which allowed them to get KG. If they sat Al Jefferson behind a re-signed Antoine Walker for the first 3 years of his career how much do you want to bet that they C's don't land KG? Playing your young players also builds up their value. That is way more important than trying to rebuild Rons or Brads.
SacKingZZZ
RealGM
Posts: 24,085
And1: 1,084
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Location: "Look at me, Dave, look. Come and touch it, Dave."

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#65 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:10 am

And for the "players are built up during the summer" part. Sure, that is a part of it, but you can ask just about ANY player and they'll tell you that you don't really learn until you get on the court and get real game minutes.
deNIEd
Banned User
Posts: 4,942
And1: 30
Joined: Jul 18, 2006

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#66 » by deNIEd » Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:48 am

Lol, I guess again its Me and Kingzzz vs the board.

Regarding Kevin Martin. I highly doubt he would be so valuable to us, if Bonzi didn't get hurt that season or not resigning Bonzi. You never know what a player can do until they have the given minutes and the given opportunity to prove themselves.

Douby is supposed to be an amazing player during practice, but practice means ****. Practice and actual games, are two different worlds.
Ballings7
RealGM
Posts: 24,078
And1: 1,956
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#67 » by Ballings7 » Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:26 am

Practice does mean something in getting PT to younger players who aren't defined in the rotation.
The Playoffs don't care about your Analytics
User avatar
pillwenney
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 48,887
And1: 2,603
Joined: Sep 19, 2004
Location: Avidly reading pstyousuck.blogspot.com/
Contact:
 

Re: The future of the Sac Kings.... 

Post#68 » by pillwenney » Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:09 am

deNIEd wrote:Draft and trade are not both the same.

Draft, you don't even know if there will be one at all in which one team rapes the other team.
Draft, you know there are a few players in the draft class that will greatly help the team (except for minor exceptions), even then, you can find someone good.

Trade - depends on the other teams
Draft - depends on the GM/staff's skill level


It also depends on pure luck. You're not going to get a bona fide superstar unless you get lucky in some way. You can get someone that will help you, but every GM drafts busts. Every single one. Some are very good, but the draft really is a crapshoot in general.


SacKingZZZ wrote:Oh give me a break! I have said many times before and still say that if putting a legit team around Ron Artest within his timeframe was possible I'd say go for it!!! IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! If it were some sort transition would be heading that way by now. It hasn't, and doesn't look like it's going to any time soon. If anything it's gone completely the opposite way. I see a team being built that fits much better around Kevin Martin than Ron Artest.

I am sure Brad cares about winning. And WHOEVER is on the court I hope they do their all to try to win. But it is in the organizations best interest sometimes, and most of the time for a REBUILDING TEAM, to prepare their youth for the eventual transition. And that transition could be pretty soon by the looks of our salary cap. My question is why waste any more time???


I'm not talking about the direction of the team so much as your claim that in that situation Brad would be a team player and Ron wouldn't. That's pretty unfounded given the situation we're in.

And at this point, it's not about wasting or not wasting time, it's about finding a decent deal. Pretty much everyone here agreed that we did the right thing to not trade Ron for the deals that were offered at the deadline. So then why is it now "wasting time" if we turn down similar deals?

SacKingZZZ wrote:
mitchweber wrote:It's not about wanting to contend right now. Nobody thinks we can contend right now except for Ron.

It is, however, about competing right now because no casual fan (the vast majority of every fanbase) wants to watch a team in full rebuild. It's not that the Maloofs are in a fantasy world, it's that they don't want the fans to lose all interest in the team--especially after interest dropped this year even though the team wasn't even that bad!

And sure our team doesn't have adequate talent right now, but we have time. We'll have tons of expiring contracts next year that we can either use in a trade or use to draw in a FA. Before that summer we will have two late lotto selections by Geoff Petrie (probably).

And interestingly enough, if you look at the 4 teams in the conference finals this year, the Spurs were the only team that were built with an exceptionally high draft pick (albeit the Lakers were in a special circumstance with Kobe).

The Celtics and Pistons were both built without top picks. Pierce was a #10 pick (not as high as you seem to want to go) and everything else on both teams was acquired with a later pick or via trade.

I think it all boils down to value and one has to determine if the difference in value between say the #10 pick and the #5 pick really makes up for the difference when you trade Artest, Miller, Salmons etc. for pennies on the dollar, and when you lose money because the fans don't care about the team as much any more.


And on the flipside what fan wants to watch a team built around a player or players that most likely won't be here much longer?

And I contend that we don't have time. Not with Ron Artest. Why re-sign him, knowing the reality about doing so, to keep a team that isn't even 8th seed worthy at this point? We have too many young players, and more than a few with MAJOR promise. We need to take the steps now to be able to keep that together. I see that improving in time. Not a team of Ron Artest, Mikki Moore, and Brad Miller.

And the Celtics did to what you are supposed to do! They played the crap out of guys like Al Jefferson, which allowed them to get KG. If they sat Al Jefferson behind a re-signed Antoine Walker for the first 3 years of his career how much do you want to bet that they C's don't land KG? Playing your young players also builds up their value. That is way more important than trying to rebuild Rons or Brads.


You give casual fans too much credit. They just want to go out there and see wins. It's not until the team is competitive that they really develop any kind of care for the players. If you asked the average season ticket holder whether they wanted to see the team win with Ron or lose without him, I think the answer would be pretty clear.

When did I talk about re-signing Ron here?

And the part about the Celtics is just plain inaccurate. What they did was similar to what we did with Kevin. Jefferson averaged 15MPG his rookie year and 18 MPG his sophomore year--consistent minutes but not close at all to what you're suggesting (if that was all you wanted, we wouldn't be arguing). In his 3rd year, he got major minutes--not because he was their 15th pick and they started panicking and screaming "ahh!! Ahh!!! Put him in! If he gets minutes, he'll develop!", because he showed he could be a productive player by putting up 16/11, while being a good option in the post. He took the initiative to improve as a player and that's why he became a valuable piece. And for what it's worth, he definitely would've earned minutes over Antoine Walker's fat ass at that point. Similarly, Mikki is probably at the perfect talent level, where it will take a lot of work to earn playing time over him, but it definitely can be done.

And for the "players are built up during the summer" part. Sure, that is a part of it, but you can ask just about ANY player and they'll tell you that you don't really learn until you get on the court and get real game minutes.


Sure as far as learning how to adjust to things in the game, and things like that go, in-game experience is important. But that's irrelevant until the guy is ready to contribute in some kind of positive way to the team.

Lol, I guess again its Me and Kingzzz vs the board.

Regarding Kevin Martin. I highly doubt he would be so valuable to us, if Bonzi didn't get hurt that season or not resigning Bonzi. You never know what a player can do until they have the given minutes and the given opportunity to prove themselves.

Douby is supposed to be an amazing player during practice, but practice means ****. Practice and actual games, are two different worlds.


And you have to take advantage of the opportunity when it comes to you, and unless you have an iron man in front of you, you're going to get it. Spencer and Shelden got it to a certain extent last year, and everybody will at different times this year--especially when Brad's body inevitably breaks down at the end of the year.

And if we had re-signed Bonzi, I would bet that he would have reverted to his lazy ways, based off of what I've seen of him after that part. If he had gotten a big contract, I think he would have declined enough to where Kevin would have gotten minutes over him, as Kevin had proven himself the year before.

Return to Sacramento Kings