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Whose the odd man out at PF?

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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#41 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Aug 5, 2008 8:35 am

mitchweber wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:

No it's actually completely relevant. If we had TMac, Lebron, or Duncan clogging up minutes in front of the young guys then by all means back to the bench with ye! But, well....duh.

I didn't say that a player needs to come in and get minutes immediately to become a success. I am saying for the franchise as it is it really makes no sense for us to do anything else. And the fact that it could possibly expidite the process of development, both from a team and individual standpoint, remains and will until something is done. And by "sink" what do you mean? I think giving the young players a chance to "sink" is the most productive thing you can do, and I dare you to get any player on an NBA team right now to say any different. Sure waiting is good, but our situation really no longer calls for it and in reality it hasn't for a long time.


No, it's still irrelevant. If players can be successful without a ton of playing time early on in their careers, then we shouldn't be panicking to clear out minutes for our young guys when they don't earn them.

And I'm saying that it could make perfectly good sense to play veterans. It's not like guys are getting minutes because they're entitled to them because of their age (otherwise Kenny wouldn't have his butt on the bench all year). The best players are playing. And that has nothing to do with the team trying to win a championship this year.

You see, it's kind of an air-tight system. If your team is good enough to compete, then your young players will be placed on the back-burner. If your veterans are not good enough to compete, then your young players should be good enough to take over for them. If they're not, then they're not ready.

Also, regarding player development, I have been over this a million times. You can't just throw a player in the game and expect him to figure it out when he's not ready. Some young players need a lot of work on their games before they're ready. This could mean in a certain area of skills, or in general awareness. There is the type of development where a player is getting ready to be a game-worthy player and the type where he is playing in games and is learning from there. To smash them together as if they're the same thing is wrong IMO. Lots of high lotto picks and certain 4-year college players come in ready to play in games, but not too many do.

I also think it's important to establish precisely what players we're talking about here. I think it's time to put up or shut up for Shelden and Quincy. Both can earn spots on this team for the foreseeable future, but it's up to them.


Petrie has undoubtedly drafted based on skill level the last 4-5 years, all they need is the time and opportunity to refine those skills. However it's harder to refine those skills planted on your azz watching Mikki Moore scream, "And one!". :wink:
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#42 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Aug 5, 2008 8:43 am

KingInExile wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:Yeah, what's it been for this franchise? 4-5 years?

Uhh...no. Petrie and the Maloofs had not been operating with a "rebuilding" mentality until last year. There have been some people whining and complaining about the team not doing enough about "rebuilding" without understanding the overall goals and objectives of the franchise. But fan whining and insistence that the team needs to "rebuild" (generally meaning they want to see a fire-sale of all the vets for unproven "young guys with potential") does not make "rebuilding" a reality.

Rebuilding partially started the day Adelman was let go. It really didn't kick in until the Musselhead experiment failed miserably.



They may have called it something else but it was rebuilding the day we dumped Chris Webber. It was however just the opening stages of "rebuilding" that for some reason stretched on for 3 years or so too long. We have slowly, and that's of the most agonizing sort mind you, rebuilt through the draft and contract swapping.

And I guess after all that "whining" this team is finally at that point where all of us "whiners" were saying it was going to go anyway. It was a long tough battle but we finally won!!! :lol:
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#43 » by pillwenney » Tue Aug 5, 2008 9:24 am

SacKingZZZ wrote:
mitchweber wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:

No it's actually completely relevant. If we had TMac, Lebron, or Duncan clogging up minutes in front of the young guys then by all means back to the bench with ye! But, well....duh.

I didn't say that a player needs to come in and get minutes immediately to become a success. I am saying for the franchise as it is it really makes no sense for us to do anything else. And the fact that it could possibly expidite the process of development, both from a team and individual standpoint, remains and will until something is done. And by "sink" what do you mean? I think giving the young players a chance to "sink" is the most productive thing you can do, and I dare you to get any player on an NBA team right now to say any different. Sure waiting is good, but our situation really no longer calls for it and in reality it hasn't for a long time.


No, it's still irrelevant. If players can be successful without a ton of playing time early on in their careers, then we shouldn't be panicking to clear out minutes for our young guys when they don't earn them.

And I'm saying that it could make perfectly good sense to play veterans. It's not like guys are getting minutes because they're entitled to them because of their age (otherwise Kenny wouldn't have his butt on the bench all year). The best players are playing. And that has nothing to do with the team trying to win a championship this year.

You see, it's kind of an air-tight system. If your team is good enough to compete, then your young players will be placed on the back-burner. If your veterans are not good enough to compete, then your young players should be good enough to take over for them. If they're not, then they're not ready.

Also, regarding player development, I have been over this a million times. You can't just throw a player in the game and expect him to figure it out when he's not ready. Some young players need a lot of work on their games before they're ready. This could mean in a certain area of skills, or in general awareness. There is the type of development where a player is getting ready to be a game-worthy player and the type where he is playing in games and is learning from there. To smash them together as if they're the same thing is wrong IMO. Lots of high lotto picks and certain 4-year college players come in ready to play in games, but not too many do.

I also think it's important to establish precisely what players we're talking about here. I think it's time to put up or shut up for Shelden and Quincy. Both can earn spots on this team for the foreseeable future, but it's up to them.


Petrie has undoubtedly drafted based on skill level the last 4-5 years, all they need is the time and opportunity to refine those skills. However it's harder to refine those skills planted on your azz watching Mikki Moore scream, "And one!". :wink:



But you can't just say "player x is skilled, so that's taken care of". Kevin needed to learn how to score within the context of the game in a way that would be affective for him (as opposed to just being the teams whole offense like he was in college) and he needed to work on his jumper. He studied other players and worked his butt off and he improved enough until he was really able to show what he could do. Quincy came in and the goal always appeared to be to make him develop some kind of PG skills/mentality--he may have had scoring skills but he severely lacked several parts of what his kind of "planned skillset" was (and he still does). And Spencer is almost a perfect example, but in a different way. He's very skilled, but his body isn't ready, but the principle still applies. He has all of these post skills, but they'll continue to be basically useless until he is strong enough to hold position down low. It's just like if you have a very quick PF who has no handles--he's not going to improve by trying to blow by guys in games all the time. He needs to learn how to handle the ball in practice. With Spencer, he just needs to get stronger still. Fortunately, until then he can still be productive because he has other skills.

So, no, when we're talking about refining skills, it's still not that relevant to playing time. That's not what playing time is for in terms of player development. Playing time is where players learn to apply skills in game situations and to learn the little ins and outs of the pro game.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#44 » by JMillott » Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:42 pm

I'm sorry but any coach worth having is going to play the guys who give him the best chance to win, you may think otherwise and want Reggie to just throw the young players to the wolves to develop them faster but if he wants to be a coach in the NBA he needs to win as many games as possible.

If during the course of the season the injury bug was to bite the Kings and winning became an impossibility then i'm sure he would give the young guys the bulk of the playing time but until then it would be stupid to do so.

You don't want a team full of unhappy veterans and as a coach you sure as hell don't want a bad rep amoung the veterans in this league. The star veterans simply hold to much sway over who their teams hire to coach them and if Theus were to bench players who deserve and want to play in order to play guys who don't deserve minutes it would derail his future as a coach in this league.

PG Udrih/Jackson/Douby
SG Martin/Garcia
SF Salmons/Greene
PF Moore/Williams/Thompson
C Miller/Hawes/Wright

Obviously if Shareef Abdur-Rahim manages to return healthy and ready to play I believe he would win the starting PF position and either he or Moore would be traded pretty quickly.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#45 » by KingInExile » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:39 pm

^^WOW...a voice of reason. Unfortunately your words will probably fall on deaf eyes.

Only a couple things to note with your depth chart. I'm assuming that the Wright you have at C is Lorenzen Wright. He's currently a FA and very likely won't be on the roster next season. Also, we signed Bobby Brown early this summer and he will likely get time at the 1 over Douby; Douby will have to compete with Garcia for time at the 2. Not trying to nit-pick...just wanted to point out a couple of things you might not be aware of.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#46 » by KF10 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:52 pm

Yeah, I do agree with you JMillott.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#47 » by SacKingZZZ » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:42 am

It's a tough spot for Reggie for sure and he is dangerously toeing that line of being "that" guy who is merely setting the table for the "next" guy. However, if Reggie shows the ability to work with this young team and become a teacher, and there is an understanding from top to bottom (no more owners going to the press telling the coach to play the young guys! or having to even go there for that matter) that development is the priority, everything should be pretty positive overall.

The situation in Portland is a good example. There was an understanding and a plan that the long term route was the way to go. I can only hope that kind of situation can and will happen here.

And yes, maybe some of the older guys will give him a chance to win a few more games, but in the long run I'd take my chances on the young guys one day being part of a team to take us to the playoffs and beyond. The grooming needs to start now, not 2 years from now.

If Reggie decides to go out there everynight and trot out the remains of our rather pitiful "veteren" core, we will not only miss out on seeing what guys like Greene, Thompson, Williams, etc. can do, but we will only being hurting ourselves in the long run. If that is the rotation be prepared to either see a) Greene play in about 20 games max, b) Thompson be relegated to garbage time, Williams too, and d) Douby never even sniff the court. I'd rather piss of the vets that won't be here beyond next year than the guys that are going to be here for the long haul.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#48 » by pillwenney » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:27 am

Grooming does not equal "playing when they're not ready to contribute". Portland is a different situation because Roy and Aldridge didn't get minutes because they were young--they got minutes because they were the most qualified players for the minutes.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#49 » by Ballings7 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:42 am

The best veteran (oldest) players on the team are going to get their consistent time until they're dealt or get injured.

Really has to be something serious for young player(s) to get the time over the vets time that they'll get.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#50 » by SacKingZZZ » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:36 am

mitchweber wrote:Grooming does not equal "playing when they're not ready to contribute". Portland is a different situation because Roy and Aldridge didn't get minutes because they were young--they got minutes because they were the most qualified players for the minutes.


They could have played the guys that were there before them. Ones that knew the system. But....nah, we've got Mikki Moore to think about!! haha.
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Re: Whose the odd man out at PF? 

Post#51 » by pillwenney » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:35 am

SacKingZZZ wrote:
mitchweber wrote:Grooming does not equal "playing when they're not ready to contribute". Portland is a different situation because Roy and Aldridge didn't get minutes because they were young--they got minutes because they were the most qualified players for the minutes.


They could have played the guys that were there before them. Ones that knew the system. But....nah, we've got Mikki Moore to think about!! haha.


But that would have been foolish because those guys weren't as good as Brandon Roy. That's the point--Roy didn't get minutes right away because he was young, he got minutes because he was ready right away to be a very nice contributor. So comparing him with people that aren't ready for that is wrong.

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