Hey...we almost won tonight!

[pillwenney]

It's not about playing time, it's about consistency and role.

When you trade your two best players at the time for the packages they were traded for, it most likely makes you worse in the interim correct? What the heck would you call it?

Oh, and by the way look at the headlines....won't say I told you so. Hehe. It's already starting, too many mouths to feed and it's only downhill from here baby!!

Yes, and I spoke to how I don't see any problem with either of those.

Of course we knew we would get worse, but nobody expected this much worse. I think management probably expected something like a 30 win team. Again, it's not about anything like trying to make the playoffs, it's about trying to rebuild while being a watchable team. This team hasn't been watchable this year.

I really hope you're not referencing Salmons complaints about shot attempts and having plays called for him as a reason for why the team as will generally not work. I really hope you're referencing something that I just haven't seen yet.

[SacKingZZZ]

Yes, and I spoke to how I don't see any problem with either of those.

Of course we knew we would get worse, but nobody expected this much worse. I think management probably expected something like a 30 win team. Again, it's not about anything like trying to make the playoffs, it's about trying to rebuild while being a watchable team. This team hasn't been watchable this year.

I really hope you're not referencing Salmons complaints about shot attempts and having plays called for him as a reason for why the team as will generally not work. I really hope you're referencing something that I just haven't seen yet.

Of course I'm referencing that, and anyone that fails to see the connection is in complete denial. TOO MANY BODIES = TOO MANY SHOTS TO GO AROUND. 10 man rotations elicit a few different, but very precise, responses. This is an example of one of those.

[pillwenney]

Of course I'm referencing that, and anyone that fails to see the connection is in complete denial. TOO MANY BODIES = TOO MANY SHOTS TO GO AROUND. 10 man rotations elicit a few different, but very precise, responses. This is an example of one of those.

This is about Salmons and Martin, and nobody else. John is still going to get more plays called for him than anyone besides Kevin, he's just butthurt because he's not the #1 option any more. But it's ridiculous because he's not going to be the #1 option anywhere. It has nothing to do with the size of the rotation and everything to do with Salmons now being the second option because we have a better scorer as the first option.

[SacKingZZZ]

Of course I'm referencing that, and anyone that fails to see the connection is in complete denial. TOO MANY BODIES = TOO MANY SHOTS TO GO AROUND. 10 man rotations elicit a few different, but very precise, responses. This is an example of one of those.

This is about Salmons and Martin, and nobody else. John is still going to get more plays called for him than anyone besides Kevin, he's just butthurt because he's not the #1 option any more. But it's ridiculous because he's not going to be the #1 option anywhere. It has nothing to do with the size of the rotation and everything to do with Salmons now being the second option because we have a better scorer as the first option.

We are a completely different team with Kevin out there. I am sure John can be worked in but who's role does he dip into? I'm sure John will find some type of comfort zone and become more aggressive, or the staff will draw plays up for him specifically, but the problem of who does that cut out still applies.

Here lets say the Kings get 85 shots per game, which is probably a little high, who do they go to? Now here's where you can get hypothetical:

Say Beno gets 10 shots a game (probably low for what he should get), Cisco gets 10 a game (too low), Jackson gets 8 (probably too high), and Brown gets 6 a game (just right). Now Martin gets 17 per game (about right but don't forget he also gets to the line another 4 times which = 4 more possessions which we won't count right now). Mikki gets 5 (probably a little low for what he's capable of, hasn't bitched yet, well kind of did once) Brad gets 10 a game (should get about 15 with the offense running through him, but he doesn't mind passing up shots, gets to the line well though). Say Jason and Spencer on top of that get 12 shots combined (way too freaking low IMO). There you have 78 shots per game on average without even considering John Salmons. Not to mention Greene, Shelden, and Douby still collecting bed sores of course. Woohoo......

When you have players (some of which you need to move) getting less shots their production goes down. Their production goes down? Their trade value goes down. Their confidence, their patience, etc. etc. etc. It's all downhill.

How would you work it out shots wise to where individual player production doesn't go down, in turn, causing their confidence to go down? Without cutting out somebody's shots. You work it out. We could maybe speed up the game, which would certainly work for John, but I doubt we're capable of doing so any more than we have already.

[pillwenney]

We are a completely different team with Kevin out there. I am sure John can be worked in but who's role does he dip into? I'm sure John will find some type of comfort zone and become more aggressive, or the staff will draw plays up for him specifically, but the problem of who does that cut out still applies.

Here lets say the Kings get 85 shots per game, which is probably a little high, who do they go to? Now here's where you can get hypothetical:

Say Beno gets 10 shots a game (probably low for what he should get), Cisco gets 10 a game (too low), Jackson gets 8 (probably too high), and Brown gets 6 a game (just right). Now Martin gets 17 per game (about right but don't forget he also gets to the line another 4 times which = 4 more possessions which we won't count right now). Mikki gets 5 (probably a little low for what he's capable of, hasn't bitched yet, well kind of did once) Brad gets 10 a game (should get about 15 with the offense running through him, but he doesn't mind passing up shots, gets to the line well though). Say Jason and Spencer on top of that get 12 shots combined (way too freaking low IMO). There you have 78 shots per game on average without even considering John Salmons. Not to mention Greene, Shelden, and Douby still collecting bed sores of course. Woohoo......

When you have players (some of which you need to move) getting less shots their production goes down. Their production goes down? Their trade value goes down. Their confidence, their patience, etc. etc. etc. It's all downhill.

How would you work it out shots wise to where individual player production doesn't go down, in turn, causing their confidence to go down? Without cutting out somebody's shots. You work it out. We could maybe speed up the game, which would certainly work for John, but I doubt we're capable of doing so any more than we have already.

Mikki is getting 3.3 shots per game right now, and I haven't heard a peep out of him--probably because he knows that it's not his role to be a big scorer. Mikki almost never gets plays called for him, and never has throughout his career. The same can be said for a ton of our guys. Even Brad almost never is part of plays where the idea is for him to score. If Brad isn't getting many shots, it hopefully means he's getting many assists. Nobody on the team should complain when more capable players are getting shots. Very rarely do minor role players complain about not getting many shots.

And really, it's not about shots, but more about play calls. Jason gets 8 shots a game, but rarely has a play called for him. That's how Mikki gets all of his shots--being the open man and hustling.

And no, Brad should not be near 15 shots per game because he just isn't going to get that many wide open jumpers (really the only shot he should be taking for the most part). His career high in shot attempts per game is 11.1 and for a good reason.

But my bigger problem is with your perception that so many of those shot attempt totals are too low. How many 6th men get more than 10 shot attempts? And PGs that are the 3rd or 4th option offensively? How is that low? Not to mention that right now, the two Bobbys are averaging 12 shots per game between them (not the 14 you suggest), and that's mostly without Kevin Martin. On top of that, BB is not going to make a fuss. Backup rookie undrafted PGs just don't have the clout to do that without getting slapped upside the head--and rightfully so.

[SacKingZZZ]

Mikki is getting 3.3 shots per game right now, and I haven't heard a peep out of him--probably because he knows that it's not his role to be a big scorer. Mikki almost never gets plays called for him, and never has throughout his career. The same can be said for a ton of our guys. Even Brad almost never is part of plays where the idea is for him to score. If Brad isn't getting many shots, it hopefully means he's getting many assists. Nobody on the team should complain when more capable players are getting shots. Very rarely do minor role players complain about not getting many shots.

And really, it's not about shots, but more about play calls. Jason gets 8 shots a game, but rarely has a play called for him. That's how Mikki gets all of his shots--being the open man and hustling.

And no, Brad should not be near 15 shots per game because he just isn't going to get that many wide open jumpers (really the only shot he should be taking for the most part). His career high in shot attempts per game is 11.1 and for a good reason.

But my bigger problem is with your perception that so many of those shot attempt totals are too low. How many 6th men get more than 10 shot attempts? And PGs that are the 3rd or 4th option offensively? How is that low? Not to mention that right now, the two Bobbys are averaging 12 shots per game between them (not the 14 you suggest), and that's mostly without Kevin Martin. On top of that, BB is not going to make a fuss. Backup rookie undrafted PGs just don't have the clout to do that without getting slapped upside the head--and rightfully so.

I am saying shots also in reference to Brads driving of the ball as well, he gets to the line a few times a game which essentially ends that particular possession. I was also referring to the nights that they will get that number, which has happened, now they are not getting the consistent minutes they once were. Mikki's minutes have declined from game to game, hence his shot attempts are down as well. And I didn't say anything about Bobby Brown making a fuss, but if the decision is made to give him more looks to see what he can do it will negatively impact in other areas. It's possible that as the season goes on it may happen (and it should, I mean really, what's going on is just rediculous at this point). As far as minutes, I don't like guys playing 32 minutes one game, and then follow it up with a 12 minute game. How the hell do you expect any consistency playing like that? That's when it dawned on me! We're tankin' it baby!!!! Bring on the #1!!!!!

[pillwenney]

I am saying shots also in reference to Brads driving of the ball as well, he gets to the line a few times a game which essentially ends that particular possession. I was also referring to the nights that they will get that number, which has happened, now they are not getting the consistent minutes they once were. Mikki's minutes have declined from game to game, hence his shot attempts are down as well. And I didn't say anything about Bobby Brown making a fuss, but if the decision is made to give him more looks to see what he can do it will negatively impact in other areas. It's possible that as the season goes on it may happen (and it should, I mean really, what's going on is just rediculous at this point). As far as minutes, I don't like guys playing 32 minutes one game, and then follow it up with a 12 minute game. How the hell do you expect any consistency playing like that? That's when it dawned on me! We're tankin' it baby!!!! Bring on the #1!!!!!

Yes, but while Brad driving does result in some free throws, it also results in him often getting blocked, getting frustrated and screwing up the game for his team.

But of course guys shot attempts are going to fluctuate. If a guy takes 10 shots a game and he's 6 of 8 from the field in the 3rd quarter, he will probably get more shots. Unfortunately the likelihood that several guys get on a role like that is pretty small--that would be a nice problem to have. But that's part of the point. We don't have a bunch of guys that "need to get their shots", so the argument about shot attempts is faulty.

[SacKingZZZ]

Yes, but while Brad driving does result in some free throws, it also results in him often getting blocked, getting frustrated and screwing up the game for his team.

But of course guys shot attempts are going to fluctuate. If a guy takes 10 shots a game and he's 6 of 8 from the field in the 3rd quarter, he will probably get more shots. Unfortunately the likelihood that several guys get on a role like that is pretty small--that would be a nice problem to have. But that's part of the point. We don't have a bunch of guys that "need to get their shots", so the argument about shot attempts is faulty.

Maybe, but it factors into role more than just about anything.

[pillwenney]

Whose role? Other than Kevin's and John's, to a lesser extent Cisco's, and to a far lesser extent maybe Spencer and Beno?

[SacKingZZZ]

Whose role? Other than Kevin's and John's, to a lesser extent Cisco's, and to a far lesser extent maybe Spencer and Beno?

For the most part everyone wants their shots, even moreso they just want a consistent role on offense. Give it to them, and then take it away and you have a situation on your hands. Last time I looked around we have more than a few players that are mostly noted for what they can do on the offensive side of the ball.

[pillwenney]

Whose role? Other than Kevin's and John's, to a lesser extent Cisco's, and to a far lesser extent maybe Spencer and Beno?

For the most part everyone wants their shots, even moreso they just want a consistent role on offense. Give it to them, and then take it away and you have a situation on your hands. Last time I looked around we have more than a few players that are mostly noted for what they can do on the offensive side of the ball.

I think what everyone wants is a successful team, and I would like to think the players would gladly give up their shots if it meant contributing to the team's success. But more importantly, you can't expect anything to remain consistent when you just now get your best offensive player into the lineup. I don't care what size your rotation is.

[SacKingZZZ]

I think what everyone wants is a successful team, and I would like to think the players would gladly give up their shots if it meant contributing to the team's success. But more importantly, you can't expect anything to remain consistent when you just now get your best offensive player into the lineup. I don't care what size your rotation is.

There has to be at least the slightest hint of the possibility of success for players to consider that though, and why not? They're human, they're not dumb, they know this is a sunk ship and they've had the rug pulled out from under them. They are thinking the way they probably should naturally, the franchise isn't about them, so they aren't going to be about the franchise. All they have to look forward to is individual success at this point. That really isn't all bad for the franchise either since the best thing that can happen is those vets rack up the trade value (I originally said Salmons and Miller are the only two worth investing time in, but I think I'll add Kenny, why not right?) and then it makes it a little easier to move them. Maybe even a little sooner.

[pillwenney]

There has to be at least the slightest hint of the possibility of success for players to consider that though, and why not? They're human, they're not dumb, they know this is a sunk ship and they've had the rug pulled out from under them. They are thinking the way they probably should naturally, the franchise isn't about them, so they aren't going to be about the franchise. All they have to look forward to is individual success at this point. That really isn't all bad for the franchise either since the best thing that can happen is those vets rack up the trade value (I originally said Salmons and Miller are the only two worth investing time in, but I think I'll add Kenny, why not right?) and then it makes it a little easier to move them. Maybe even a little sooner.

Absolutely not. These guys have pride, and they want to win every game. Sure they know this isn't a playoff team, but you still enter a game playing to win. They have been clearly more competitive in the more recent games, and they know that if they keep trying and can improve as a group, they can win a little more than they have been. But even then. I don't care if you're 0-81. You're going into game 82 trying to win.

[SacKingZZZ]

Absolutely not. These guys have pride, and they want to win every game. Sure they know this isn't a playoff team, but you still enter a game playing to win. They have been clearly more competitive in the more recent games, and they know that if they keep trying and can improve as a group, they can win a little more than they have been. But even then. I don't care if you're 0-81. You're going into game 82 trying to win.

Sure they do, but their not dumb enough to not recognize a lost cause when they see it.

[pillwenney]

Sure they do, but their not dumb enough to not recognize a lost cause when they see it.

What lost cause? Like I said, they know they aren't going to be a playoff team, but that's not the point. If you're close in a game, the game isn't a lost cause.