Kings vs Bulls

[SacKingZZZ]

*NOTE: I just re-watched the game: the third quarter & fourth quarter*

I don't know what you were watching but that specific unit did NOT lose the lead or froze out. The Kings maintained a 12-point lead throughout the third quarter (from the beginning until 2:52 of the fourth quarter). That specific unit was doing fine against the Bulls in the third quarter. They were dbl-teaming Evans every time when he touches the ball, that opened up players (especially Thompson: who had 4 points from: a mid range jumper & a hop step move towards the basket). And not to mention he was a pest out there as a defender: from blocking/altering shots to keeping the energy of this unit high from his hustle plays: diving for the ball etc etc.

After the 2:52, Landry was in for Thompson & Beno in for Luther. At 1:39, the Kings let the Bulls go on a 8-0 run: score: 65-71. During this span, the Kings took a LONG time to get into their sets: moving the ball w/o any purpose: forced a rushed & tough shot. This lineup, there wasn't any offensive cohesiveness. Landry was way up in the perimeter and simply pass and weaving the ball around, he wasn't in any form creating himself opportunities for scoring for except once in his sting here. He was just simply was THERE: a passive bystander. And it doesn't gets better for Beno either. He wasn't facilitating the offense that he was supposed to.(there was one instance that he was trying to feed Landry in the post but a Bulls player picked the awfully lazy pass from Beno: which was converted by a fastbreak dunk by Rose). It's combination of this lineup in general & the defensive intensity of the Bulls caused the Kings lead (and momentum) to shrivel. The Bulls were anticipating the Kings' every move and were successful doing so. The Kings did NOT made any adjustments whatsoever. The Kings were SO predictable.

It's now end of the third quarter: 69-76. The Kings still had lead. But you can tell it was starting to slip away due to careless turnovers and a lack of offensive power from the Kings.

And in the fourth: the Kings only scored 9 points. And from there, we know the story. Kings loss.

Again, going back to your initial claims: the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert did NOT froze out NOR lost the lead. In contrast, they kept a HIGH LEVEL of play and SUSTAINING the lead THROUGHOUT the third quarter! I watched the game again and I did NOT see what you were talking about how this unit froze out and losing the lead. That's bull.

It goes back to my original concern: why the HELL Westphal did not insert the unit of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert together in the fourth!?! This was the best lineup the Kings had ALL night! BUT instead, he was inserting different players left and right in the fourth!! Hoping he can find a spark on offense. Which was his downfall: this caused instability & the propensity of turnovers. We NEVER saw the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert in the fourth. NOT ONE MINUTE TOGETHER!

And Thompson: who was the Kings most important player tonight played a grand total of 5:40 in the fourth! Unbelievable!

Watched it on demand myself. I said THEY COULDN'T SCORE ON THE BULLS which was most certainly the case. And I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards the end when they instead went to cousins. And it really was that unit that cost us the ground we had, they did gain it back at times on sloppy plays, but there were times where that unit did indeed let the Bulls back in the game. They were unable to score when the only way we were going to win is by scoring more points. If there's one thing I can't blame Westphal for it would be giving up on that unit. Uptempo unit that simply couldn't score once the Bulls changed up their defense. That and JT was completely ineffective after halftime when he started to be used in the post. I wouldn't have put any faith in that unit being able to score either since the game had noticeably shifted from a running one to half court.

[SacKingZZZ]

Still waiting for you to bring up something critical of your boyfriends Evans and Cousins.

HAHAHAHA!

OK you've dragged these conversations down to the "take some reading comprehension classes" level, which in itself is sad enough. Now you go this direction!? HAHAHA. What next, a "yo momma" joke!? C'mon man, don't embarrass yourself any more than you already have.

[KingInExile]

Still waiting for you to bring up something critical of your boyfriends Evans and Cousins.

HAHAHAHA!

OK you've dragged these conversations down to the "take some reading comprehension classes" level, which in itself is sad enough. Now you go this direction!? HAHAHA. What next, a "yo momma" joke!? C'mon man, don't embarrass yourself any more than you already have.

Still waiting for you to find something critical to say about Evans and Cousins. The fact that we're still waiting is just proving that your a fanboy who is blind to their faults. Just admit it...you're a blind fanboy.

[KF10]

Watched it on demand myself. I said THEY COULDN'T SCORE ON THE BULLS which was most certainly the case.

And yet, they still maintained the lead throughout majority of the third quarter.

And I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards the end when they instead went to cousins. And it really was that unit that cost us the ground we had, they did gain it back at times on sloppy plays, but there were times where that unit did indeed let the Bulls back in the game. They were unable to score when the only way we were going to win is by scoring more points. If there's one thing I can't blame Westphal for it would be giving up on that unit. Uptempo unit that simply couldn't score once the Bulls changed up their defense. That and JT was completely ineffective after halftime when he started to be used in the post. I wouldn't have put any faith in that unit being able to score either since the game had noticeably shifted from a running one to half court.

No you were not.

This is what I said in my initial post before you responded:

Another thing: Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

I EXPLICITLY said the STARTING lineup, not the lineup of Cousins and whatever. You are arguing two different things.

[SacKingZZZ]

OK you've dragged these conversations down to the "take some reading comprehension classes" level, which in itself is sad enough. Now you go this direction!? HAHAHA. What next, a "yo momma" joke!? C'mon man, don't embarrass yourself any more than you already have.

Still waiting for you to find something critical to say about Evans and Cousins. The fact that we're still waiting is just proving that your a fanboy who is blind to their faults. Just admit it...you're a blind fanboy.[/quote]


Do some research before you talk. I have a problem with the way this team is being run and how the players are being used and also believe that the attitudes swirling around the team at present have a strong connection to that. Just like I said about the way the rotations were being run, man, starting to sound like Memphis part two around here. Hmmm...who'da thunk it!

[SacKingZZZ]

No you were not.

This is what I said in my initial post before you responded:



I EXPLICITLY said the STARTING lineup, not the lineup of Cousins and whatever. You are arguing two different things.

Uh, YES I WAS. I was talking about that last time he checked out towards the end of the game. And I wasn't talking about the Cousins lineup. I was saying he most likely went back to his iso scorers because we had nobody to score consistently enough on their own with that other lineup. I think he made a choice that a lot of other coaches would have made as well, it just didn't pay off in the long run. As I said, I still think JT should have played, but when he had Deng on him I don't know why he didn't just continuously ram the ball down to JT in the post. He struggled on a few plays but even winning aside, how is he supposed to get the experience he still needs down there?

[KF10]

Uh, YES I WAS. I was talking about that last time he checked out towards the end of the game. And I wasn't talking about the Cousins lineup. I was saying he most likely went back to his iso scorers because we had nobody to score consistently enough on their own with that other lineup. I think he made a choice that a lot of other coaches would have made as well, it just didn't pay off in the long run. As I said, I still think JT should have played, but when he had Deng on him I don't know why he didn't just continuously ram the ball down to JT in the post. He struggled on a few plays but even winning aside, how is he supposed to get the experience he still needs down there?

Wait, what?

Lets go back to square one. I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. Here was ALL the posts between us:

(1)

Another thing: Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And why Thompson only played a total of 5 MINUTES in the FOURTH? Oh, that's right! Westphal did not want him in the fourth because he did not like the matchup with Deng! Seriously??? Was he the same guy that pushed the idea that Thompson can play SF? Was he the same guy that approved the idea that Thompson can GUARD SFs? Was he the same guy that liked watching Thompson guarding the likes of Beasley & Gay!?!? But for this night, he elicited to NOT put Thompson because of DENG? DENG of all people!?!? I thought, Thompson was the Kings best player tonight. And the Kings really needed him for that stretch in the fourth. But instead, we watched Casspi at the 3 and Greene as the 4 for the majority of the fourth quarter.

I really want to side with Westphal but it is really hard to NOT to point fingers toward him.

(2)

Another thing: Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And why Thompson only played a total of 5 MINUTES in the FOURTH? Oh, that's right! Westphal did not want him in the fourth because he did not like the matchup with Deng! Seriously??? Was he the same guy that pushed the idea that Thompson can play SF? Was he the same guy that approved the idea that Thompson can GUARD SFs? Was he the same guy that liked watching Thompson guarding the likes of Beasley & Gay!?!? But for this night, he elicited to NOT put Thompson because of DENG? DENG of all people!?!? I thought, Thompson was the Kings best player tonight. And the Kings really needed him for that stretch in the fourth. But instead, we watched Casspi at the 3 and Greene as the 4 for the majority of the fourth quarter.

I really want to side with Westphal but it is really hard to NOT to point fingers toward him.

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out.

The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway. My problem is with the style of play that doesn't fit this team as a whole and more importantly the foundational pieces of this team. There is no future in playing that style, no bright future at least. Still, Thompson should have played, and on Deng I would have liked to see him get the ball in the post. He started to struggle when asked to do that as the lead dissipated but he should have gotten a chance to learn, even if it meant failing a few times.

(3)

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out.

The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway. My problem is with the style of play that doesn't fit this team as a whole and more importantly the foundational pieces of this team. There is no future in playing that style, no bright future at least. Still, Thompson should have played, and on Deng I would have liked to see him get the ball in the post. He started to struggle when asked to do that as the lead dissipated but he should have gotten a chance to learn, even if it meant failing a few times.

*NOTE: I just re-watched the game: the third quarter & fourth quarter*

I don't know what you were watching but that specific unit did NOT lose the lead or froze out. The Kings maintained a 12-point lead throughout the third quarter (from the beginning until 2:52 of the fourth quarter). That specific unit was doing fine against the Bulls in the third quarter. They were dbl-teaming Evans every time when he touches the ball, that opened up players (especially Thompson: who had 4 points from: a mid range jumper & a hop step move towards the basket). And not to mention he was a pest out there as a defender: from blocking/altering shots to keeping the energy of this unit high from his hustle plays: diving for the ball etc etc.

After the 2:52, Landry was in for Thompson & Beno in for Luther. At 1:39, the Kings let the Bulls go on a 8-0 run: score: 65-71. During this span, the Kings took a LONG time to get into their sets: moving the ball w/o any purpose: forced a rushed & tough shot. This lineup, there wasn't any offensive cohesiveness. Landry was way up in the perimeter and simply pass and weaving the ball around, he wasn't in any form creating himself opportunities for scoring for except once in his sting here. He was just simply was THERE: a passive bystander. And it doesn't gets better for Beno either. He wasn't facilitating the offense that he was supposed to.(there was one instance that he was trying to feed Landry in the post but a Bulls player picked the awfully lazy pass from Beno: which was converted by a fastbreak dunk by Rose). It's combination of this lineup in general & the defensive intensity of the Bulls caused the Kings lead (and momentum) to shrivel. The Bulls were anticipating the Kings' every move and were successful doing so. The Kings did NOT made any adjustments whatsoever. The Kings were SO predictable.

It's now end of the third quarter: 69-76. The Kings still had lead. But you can tell it was starting to slip away due to careless turnovers and a lack of offensive power from the Kings.

And in the fourth: the Kings only scored 9 points. And from there, we know the story. Kings loss.

Again, going back to your initial claims: the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert did NOT froze out NOR lost the lead. In contrast, they kept a HIGH LEVEL of play and SUSTAINING the lead THROUGHOUT the third quarter! I watched the game again and I did NOT see what you were talking about how this unit froze out and losing the lead. That's bull.

It goes back to my original concern: why the HELL Westphal did not insert the unit of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert together in the fourth!?! This was the best lineup the Kings had ALL night! BUT instead, he was inserting different players left and right in the fourth!! Hoping he can find a spark on offense. Which was his downfall: this caused instability & the propensity of turnovers. We NEVER saw the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert in the fourth. NOT ONE MINUTE TOGETHER!

And Thompson: who was the Kings most important player tonight played a grand total of 5:40 in the fourth! Unbelievable!

(4)

*NOTE: I just re-watched the game: the third quarter & fourth quarter*

I don't know what you were watching but that specific unit did NOT lose the lead or froze out. The Kings maintained a 12-point lead throughout the third quarter (from the beginning until 2:52 of the fourth quarter). That specific unit was doing fine against the Bulls in the third quarter. They were dbl-teaming Evans every time when he touches the ball, that opened up players (especially Thompson: who had 4 points from: a mid range jumper & a hop step move towards the basket). And not to mention he was a pest out there as a defender: from blocking/altering shots to keeping the energy of this unit high from his hustle plays: diving for the ball etc etc.

After the 2:52, Landry was in for Thompson & Beno in for Luther. At 1:39, the Kings let the Bulls go on a 8-0 run: score: 65-71. During this span, the Kings took a LONG time to get into their sets: moving the ball w/o any purpose: forced a rushed & tough shot. This lineup, there wasn't any offensive cohesiveness. Landry was way up in the perimeter and simply pass and weaving the ball around, he wasn't in any form creating himself opportunities for scoring for except once in his sting here. He was just simply was THERE: a passive bystander. And it doesn't gets better for Beno either. He wasn't facilitating the offense that he was supposed to.(there was one instance that he was trying to feed Landry in the post but a Bulls player picked the awfully lazy pass from Beno: which was converted by a fastbreak dunk by Rose). It's combination of this lineup in general & the defensive intensity of the Bulls caused the Kings lead (and momentum) to shrivel. The Bulls were anticipating the Kings' every move and were successful doing so. The Kings did NOT made any adjustments whatsoever. The Kings were SO predictable.

It's now end of the third quarter: 69-76. The Kings still had lead. But you can tell it was starting to slip away due to careless turnovers and a lack of offensive power from the Kings.

And in the fourth: the Kings only scored 9 points. And from there, we know the story. Kings loss.

Again, going back to your initial claims: the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert did NOT froze out NOR lost the lead. In contrast, they kept a HIGH LEVEL of play and SUSTAINING the lead THROUGHOUT the third quarter! I watched the game again and I did NOT see what you were talking about how this unit froze out and losing the lead. That's bull.

It goes back to my original concern: why the HELL Westphal did not insert the unit of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert together in the fourth!?! This was the best lineup the Kings had ALL night! BUT instead, he was inserting different players left and right in the fourth!! Hoping he can find a spark on offense. Which was his downfall: this caused instability & the propensity of turnovers. We NEVER saw the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert in the fourth. NOT ONE MINUTE TOGETHER!

And Thompson: who was the Kings most important player tonight played a grand total of 5:40 in the fourth! Unbelievable!

Watched it on demand myself. I said THEY COULDN'T SCORE ON THE BULLS which was most certainly the case. And I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards the end when they instead went to cousins. And it really was that unit that cost us the ground we had, they did gain it back at times on sloppy plays, but there were times where that unit did indeed let the Bulls back in the game. They were unable to score when the only way we were going to win is by scoring more points. If there's one thing I can't blame Westphal for it would be giving up on that unit. Uptempo unit that simply couldn't score once the Bulls changed up their defense. That and JT was completely ineffective after halftime when he started to be used in the post. I wouldn't have put any faith in that unit being able to score either since the game had noticeably shifted from a running one to half court.

Let me use pictures if you can't see what I'm saying. The lineup of:



This was the ONLY lineup that worked well against the Bulls: the STARTING lineup. We NEVER saw ONE MINUTE of THIS lineup in the FOURTH quarter!

This lineup did NOT lost the lead nor froze out like you claimed. The last TIME we saw the lineup of (going with the pictures again):




Was in the THIRD quarter for 9 minutes and 8 seconds (12:00->2:52). After the substitutes, we eventually LOST THE LEAD with ANOTHER LINEUP in the FOURTH QUARTER.

If you are shaking your head at this point and saying to yourself, "what the hell are you talking about", re-read our posts.

Here is a simple list that has happened:

KF10: Why Westphal did not insert the starting lineup in the fourth quarter? That lineup was awesome!!!!
SKZZZ: That lineup froze up and lost the lead!
KF10: What are you talking about?
SKZZZ: That lineup lost the lead because we were playing run n gun. That style of play never works etc etc (insert usual mantra of "run n gun never works")
KF10: HUH????
KF10: Again, for the last time! The starting lineup of the game for the Kings did NOT lost ANY lead or FROZE UP at any point of time!!! They also NEVER played ONE minute together in the FOURTH QUARTER!!!! How could they POSSIBLY lost ANY lead if they never lost ANYTHING in the first place???? They MAINTAINED their 12-point lead THROUGHOUT the THIRD QUARTER!!!!
SKZZZ: No no no. I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards THE END when they instead went to Cousins.
KF10: WHAT?? I was NOT talking about the lineup in the FOURTH QUARTER!!! I was talking about the lineup in the THIRD QUARTER! (the starting lineup)

Ok, anyways. Look at POST 1: my post. You see my initial claim:

Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And post 2 (YOUR response to my initial claim):

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out. The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway.

THERE!!! Here is the problem! You said, the lineup of (the STARTING lineup, let me use the pictures again to be 100%):



lost the lead already and was in "certain doom". At that point, you lost me there. You BOLDED my post of:

Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!?

So, clearly you were referring to the starting lineup. Which was last seen in the third quarter. There wasn't any Cousins substitutions in the third quarter, he did not played in the third quarter!

In post 3, I give you a clear transgression of what happened in the third quarter with the lineup of (yep you guessed it, MORE PICTURES):



Which they perform relatively well against the Bulls.

In post 4, you said basically, "no no no, they couldn't score on the Bulls" "When they took out Thompson and inserted Cousins, that unit that cost us the ground we had"

This is where I do not follow. I don't know what you are talking about. I was not talking about the lineup in the fourth. I was talking about the lineup in the third quarter. Again, to rehash my intial problem:


Why didn't Westphal inserted the STARTING lineup in the fourth quarter?

[ADoaN17]

I like the all black lineup.

[SacKingZZZ]

Uh, YES I WAS. I was talking about that last time he checked out towards the end of the game. And I wasn't talking about the Cousins lineup. I was saying he most likely went back to his iso scorers because we had nobody to score consistently enough on their own with that other lineup. I think he made a choice that a lot of other coaches would have made as well, it just didn't pay off in the long run. As I said, I still think JT should have played, but when he had Deng on him I don't know why he didn't just continuously ram the ball down to JT in the post. He struggled on a few plays but even winning aside, how is he supposed to get the experience he still needs down there?

Wait, what?

Lets go back to square one. I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. Here was ALL the posts between us:

(1)

Another thing: Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And why Thompson only played a total of 5 MINUTES in the FOURTH? Oh, that's right! Westphal did not want him in the fourth because he did not like the matchup with Deng! Seriously??? Was he the same guy that pushed the idea that Thompson can play SF? Was he the same guy that approved the idea that Thompson can GUARD SFs? Was he the same guy that liked watching Thompson guarding the likes of Beasley & Gay!?!? But for this night, he elicited to NOT put Thompson because of DENG? DENG of all people!?!? I thought, Thompson was the Kings best player tonight. And the Kings really needed him for that stretch in the fourth. But instead, we watched Casspi at the 3 and Greene as the 4 for the majority of the fourth quarter.

I really want to side with Westphal but it is really hard to NOT to point fingers toward him.

(2)

Another thing: Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And why Thompson only played a total of 5 MINUTES in the FOURTH? Oh, that's right! Westphal did not want him in the fourth because he did not like the matchup with Deng! Seriously??? Was he the same guy that pushed the idea that Thompson can play SF? Was he the same guy that approved the idea that Thompson can GUARD SFs? Was he the same guy that liked watching Thompson guarding the likes of Beasley & Gay!?!? But for this night, he elicited to NOT put Thompson because of DENG? DENG of all people!?!? I thought, Thompson was the Kings best player tonight. And the Kings really needed him for that stretch in the fourth. But instead, we watched Casspi at the 3 and Greene as the 4 for the majority of the fourth quarter.

I really want to side with Westphal but it is really hard to NOT to point fingers toward him.

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out.

The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway. My problem is with the style of play that doesn't fit this team as a whole and more importantly the foundational pieces of this team. There is no future in playing that style, no bright future at least. Still, Thompson should have played, and on Deng I would have liked to see him get the ball in the post. He started to struggle when asked to do that as the lead dissipated but he should have gotten a chance to learn, even if it meant failing a few times.

(3)

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out.

The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway. My problem is with the style of play that doesn't fit this team as a whole and more importantly the foundational pieces of this team. There is no future in playing that style, no bright future at least. Still, Thompson should have played, and on Deng I would have liked to see him get the ball in the post. He started to struggle when asked to do that as the lead dissipated but he should have gotten a chance to learn, even if it meant failing a few times.

*NOTE: I just re-watched the game: the third quarter & fourth quarter*

I don't know what you were watching but that specific unit did NOT lose the lead or froze out. The Kings maintained a 12-point lead throughout the third quarter (from the beginning until 2:52 of the fourth quarter). That specific unit was doing fine against the Bulls in the third quarter. They were dbl-teaming Evans every time when he touches the ball, that opened up players (especially Thompson: who had 4 points from: a mid range jumper & a hop step move towards the basket). And not to mention he was a pest out there as a defender: from blocking/altering shots to keeping the energy of this unit high from his hustle plays: diving for the ball etc etc.

After the 2:52, Landry was in for Thompson & Beno in for Luther. At 1:39, the Kings let the Bulls go on a 8-0 run: score: 65-71. During this span, the Kings took a LONG time to get into their sets: moving the ball w/o any purpose: forced a rushed & tough shot. This lineup, there wasn't any offensive cohesiveness. Landry was way up in the perimeter and simply pass and weaving the ball around, he wasn't in any form creating himself opportunities for scoring for except once in his sting here. He was just simply was THERE: a passive bystander. And it doesn't gets better for Beno either. He wasn't facilitating the offense that he was supposed to.(there was one instance that he was trying to feed Landry in the post but a Bulls player picked the awfully lazy pass from Beno: which was converted by a fastbreak dunk by Rose). It's combination of this lineup in general & the defensive intensity of the Bulls caused the Kings lead (and momentum) to shrivel. The Bulls were anticipating the Kings' every move and were successful doing so. The Kings did NOT made any adjustments whatsoever. The Kings were SO predictable.

It's now end of the third quarter: 69-76. The Kings still had lead. But you can tell it was starting to slip away due to careless turnovers and a lack of offensive power from the Kings.

And in the fourth: the Kings only scored 9 points. And from there, we know the story. Kings loss.

Again, going back to your initial claims: the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert did NOT froze out NOR lost the lead. In contrast, they kept a HIGH LEVEL of play and SUSTAINING the lead THROUGHOUT the third quarter! I watched the game again and I did NOT see what you were talking about how this unit froze out and losing the lead. That's bull.

It goes back to my original concern: why the HELL Westphal did not insert the unit of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert together in the fourth!?! This was the best lineup the Kings had ALL night! BUT instead, he was inserting different players left and right in the fourth!! Hoping he can find a spark on offense. Which was his downfall: this caused instability & the propensity of turnovers. We NEVER saw the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert in the fourth. NOT ONE MINUTE TOGETHER!

And Thompson: who was the Kings most important player tonight played a grand total of 5:40 in the fourth! Unbelievable!

(4)

*NOTE: I just re-watched the game: the third quarter & fourth quarter*

I don't know what you were watching but that specific unit did NOT lose the lead or froze out. The Kings maintained a 12-point lead throughout the third quarter (from the beginning until 2:52 of the fourth quarter). That specific unit was doing fine against the Bulls in the third quarter. They were dbl-teaming Evans every time when he touches the ball, that opened up players (especially Thompson: who had 4 points from: a mid range jumper & a hop step move towards the basket). And not to mention he was a pest out there as a defender: from blocking/altering shots to keeping the energy of this unit high from his hustle plays: diving for the ball etc etc.

After the 2:52, Landry was in for Thompson & Beno in for Luther. At 1:39, the Kings let the Bulls go on a 8-0 run: score: 65-71. During this span, the Kings took a LONG time to get into their sets: moving the ball w/o any purpose: forced a rushed & tough shot. This lineup, there wasn't any offensive cohesiveness. Landry was way up in the perimeter and simply pass and weaving the ball around, he wasn't in any form creating himself opportunities for scoring for except once in his sting here. He was just simply was THERE: a passive bystander. And it doesn't gets better for Beno either. He wasn't facilitating the offense that he was supposed to.(there was one instance that he was trying to feed Landry in the post but a Bulls player picked the awfully lazy pass from Beno: which was converted by a fastbreak dunk by Rose). It's combination of this lineup in general & the defensive intensity of the Bulls caused the Kings lead (and momentum) to shrivel. The Bulls were anticipating the Kings' every move and were successful doing so. The Kings did NOT made any adjustments whatsoever. The Kings were SO predictable.

It's now end of the third quarter: 69-76. The Kings still had lead. But you can tell it was starting to slip away due to careless turnovers and a lack of offensive power from the Kings.

And in the fourth: the Kings only scored 9 points. And from there, we know the story. Kings loss.

Again, going back to your initial claims: the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert did NOT froze out NOR lost the lead. In contrast, they kept a HIGH LEVEL of play and SUSTAINING the lead THROUGHOUT the third quarter! I watched the game again and I did NOT see what you were talking about how this unit froze out and losing the lead. That's bull.

It goes back to my original concern: why the HELL Westphal did not insert the unit of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert together in the fourth!?! This was the best lineup the Kings had ALL night! BUT instead, he was inserting different players left and right in the fourth!! Hoping he can find a spark on offense. Which was his downfall: this caused instability & the propensity of turnovers. We NEVER saw the lineup of Evans-Head-Greene-Thompson-Dalembert in the fourth. NOT ONE MINUTE TOGETHER!

And Thompson: who was the Kings most important player tonight played a grand total of 5:40 in the fourth! Unbelievable!

Watched it on demand myself. I said THEY COULDN'T SCORE ON THE BULLS which was most certainly the case. And I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards the end when they instead went to cousins. And it really was that unit that cost us the ground we had, they did gain it back at times on sloppy plays, but there were times where that unit did indeed let the Bulls back in the game. They were unable to score when the only way we were going to win is by scoring more points. If there's one thing I can't blame Westphal for it would be giving up on that unit. Uptempo unit that simply couldn't score once the Bulls changed up their defense. That and JT was completely ineffective after halftime when he started to be used in the post. I wouldn't have put any faith in that unit being able to score either since the game had noticeably shifted from a running one to half court.

Let me use pictures if you can't see what I'm saying. The lineup of:



This was the ONLY lineup that worked well against the Bulls: the STARTING lineup. We NEVER saw ONE MINUTE of THIS lineup in the FOURTH quarter!

This lineup did NOT lost the lead nor froze out like you claimed. The last TIME we saw the lineup of (going with the pictures again):




Was in the THIRD quarter for 9 minutes and 8 seconds (12:00->2:52). After the substitutes, we eventually LOST THE LEAD with ANOTHER LINEUP in the FOURTH QUARTER.

If you are shaking your head at this point and saying to yourself, "what the hell are you talking about", re-read our posts.

Here is a simple list that has happened:

KF10: Why Westphal did not insert the starting lineup in the fourth quarter? That lineup was awesome!!!!
SKZZZ: That lineup froze up and lost the lead!
KF10: What are you talking about?
SKZZZ: That lineup lost the lead because we were playing run n gun. That style of play never works etc etc (insert usual mantra of "run n gun never works")
KF10: HUH????
KF10: Again, for the last time! The starting lineup of the game for the Kings did NOT lost ANY lead or FROZE UP at any point of time!!! They also NEVER played ONE minute together in the FOURTH QUARTER!!!! How could they POSSIBLY lost ANY lead if they never lost ANYTHING in the first place???? They MAINTAINED their 12-point lead THROUGHOUT the THIRD QUARTER!!!!
SKZZZ: No no no. I was referring to them taking Thompson out towards THE END when they instead went to Cousins.
KF10: WHAT?? I was NOT talking about the lineup in the FOURTH QUARTER!!! I was talking about the lineup in the THIRD QUARTER! (the starting lineup)

Ok, anyways. Look at POST 1: my post. You see my initial claim:

Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!? Not ONE minute we saw that specific unit played together. That unit was working extremely well in the first half. Why avoid it?

And post 2 (YOUR response to my initial claim):

Because they couldn't score on the Bulls. The Bulls stopped us from prancing up and down the floor with ease and it completely froze that unit out. The lead had already been lost at the point Thompson was taken out. I don't think the issue was necessarily giving up on that unit, they were the ones that blew the lead and were on their way to certain doom anyway.

THERE!!! Here is the problem! You said, the lineup of (the STARTING lineup, let me use the pictures again to be 100%):



lost the lead already and was in "certain doom". At that point, you lost me there. You BOLDED my post of:

Why Westphal did NOT insert their starting lineup beginning in the fourth!?

So, clearly you were referring to the starting lineup. Which was last seen in the third quarter. There wasn't any Cousins substitutions in the third quarter, he did not played in the third quarter!

In post 3, I give you a clear transgression of what happened in the third quarter with the lineup of (yep you guessed it, MORE PICTURES):



Which they perform relatively well against the Bulls.

In post 4, you said basically, "no no no, they couldn't score on the Bulls" "When they took out Thompson and inserted Cousins, that unit that cost us the ground we had"

This is where I do not follow. I don't know what you are talking about. I was not talking about the lineup in the fourth. I was talking about the lineup in the third quarter. Again, to rehash my intial problem:


Why didn't Westphal inserted the STARTING lineup in the fourth quarter?

Yes and in that 3rd quarter that lineup proceed to put up a very shaky effort on offense and that's why Westphal didn't go to them after that. I think we are misunderstanding eachother here. All I'm saying is I can see Westphals viewpoint in changing it up the way he did. He was looking for a lineup that could score with the tempo slowed down. That's pretty much the basis of what I'm saying here. Go watch that 3rd quarter again and you can't possibly not see a team whose gameplan was starting to fall apart and in the NBA once the wheels start falling off the rest is soon to follow. How much did that unit SCORE in the 3rd quarter??? That is the entire point of what I'm saying. They were the root cause for that lead going bye bye, and yes, the lead was teetering on the way down that 3rd quarter and a few cloud bursts of points kept it even.

[KF10]

Yes and in that 3rd quarter that lineup proceed to put up a very shaky effort on offense and that's why Westphal didn't go to them after that.

I disagree.

Sure, there were turnovers here and there but that lineup was pretty much kept the Kings in the game and most importantly: kept the lead.

If it wasn't the substitutions of Landry & Beno for Thompson & Head in the late third quarter, the Kings would have not gave up 8-0 run by the Bulls but they DID!

All in all, the Kings shot 53% from the field for that quarter! Their best percentage in the second half!

I think we are misunderstanding eachother here. All I'm saying is I can see Westphals viewpoint in changing it up the way he did. He was looking for a lineup that could score with the tempo slowed down.

And yet, the multiple lineups he used in the fourth quarter only netted him 9 points TOTAL. An atrocious 14% from the field.

That's pretty much the basis of what I'm saying here. Go watch that 3rd quarter again and you can't possibly not see a team whose gameplan was starting to fall apart and in the NBA once the wheels start falling off the rest is soon to follow. How much did that unit SCORE in the 3rd quarter???

If it wasn't the 8-0 run by the Bulls late in the third (thanks to substitutions by Westphal), the Kings would have WON that quarter! They outscored the Bulls & shot a sub-40% from the field against the starting unit.

That is the entire point of what I'm saying. They were the root cause for that lead going bye bye, and yes, the lead was teetering on the way down that 3rd quarter and a few cloud bursts of points kept it even.

Bull.

The substitutions of Thompson & Head for Landry & Beno are the root causes for that lead to go bye bye. NOT the starting unit.

I think you are the one that needs to watch the game again.

[SacKingZZZ]

Yes and in that 3rd quarter that lineup proceed to put up a very shaky effort on offense and that's why Westphal didn't go to them after that.

I disagree.

Sure, there were turnovers here and there but that lineup was pretty much kept the Kings in the game and most importantly: kept the lead.

If it wasn't the substitutions of Landry & Beno for Thompson & Head in the late third quarter, the Kings would have not gave up 8-0 run by the Bulls but they DID!

All in all, the Kings shot 53% from the field for that quarter! Their best percentage in the second half!

I think we are misunderstanding eachother here. All I'm saying is I can see Westphals viewpoint in changing it up the way he did. He was looking for a lineup that could score with the tempo slowed down.

And yet, the multiple lineups he used in the fourth quarter only netted him 9 points TOTAL. An atrocious 14% from the field.

That's pretty much the basis of what I'm saying here. Go watch that 3rd quarter again and you can't possibly not see a team whose gameplan was starting to fall apart and in the NBA once the wheels start falling off the rest is soon to follow. How much did that unit SCORE in the 3rd quarter???

If it wasn't the 8-0 run by the Bulls late in the third (thanks to substitutions by Westphal), the Kings would have WON that quarter! They outscored the Bulls & shot a sub-40% from the field against the starting unit.

That is the entire point of what I'm saying. They were the root cause for that lead going bye bye, and yes, the lead was teetering on the way down that 3rd quarter and a few cloud bursts of points kept it even.

Bull.

The substitutions of Thompson & Head for Landry & Beno are the root causes for that lead to go bye bye. NOT the starting unit.

I think you are the one that needs to watch the game again.

I didn't ask if the Kings would've won that quarter, I asked how much that unit scored in the 3rd quarter. And they shot 53% from the field...when they could get a shot off. The momentum was gone well before the lead dissipated. That was really the factor here. You're simply looking at box score numbers but if you actually watched what was happening and how the team looked it was obvious. How about you watch it again, cover up the score on the bottom and then tell me what you see.

You also act like the major parts of that starting unit didn't play at all in the 4th when that just isn't true. Westphal started a lineup that's true impact is going to be a run up and down scoring game and THAT STOPPED BEING EFFECTIVE. He actually made a call that had some merit and it didn't really seem like his usual quick yank reaction on most of his rotations. It showed me that he recognized a problem and at least TRIED to adjust. Didn't work in the long run, but what has lately? If you think he should have stuck with that starting lineup I can't argue, but hindsight's 20/20. Had he put them in and the game continued on the path it was headed down we still would've have lost. Obviously now that the game is over give it a shot! hahaha.

[KF10]

I didn't ask if the Kings would've won that quarter, I asked how much that unit scored in the 3rd quarter. And they shot 53% from the field...when they could get a shot off. The momentum was gone well before the lead dissipated. That was really the factor here. You're simply looking at box score numbers but if you actually watched what was happening and how the team looked it was obvious. How about you watch it again, cover up the score on the bottom and then tell me what you see.

You are accusing me of not watching the game and deriving my opinions to....score numbers? I could easily give you a play by play & every commentary from Grant & Jerry but I don't have the time to do that. But you have my word that I WATCHED the game (and re-watched it last night).

Before the 2:52 mark of the third quarter, the team was pretty much dead-even against the Bulls. Heck, you can argue that the unit was BETTER for the most part!

You also act like the major parts of that starting unit didn't play at all in the 4th when that just isn't true. Westphal started a lineup that's true impact is going to be a run up and down scoring game and THAT STOPPED BEING EFFECTIVE. He actually made a call that had some merit and it didn't really seem like his usual quick yank reaction on most of his rotations. It showed me that he recognized a problem and at least TRIED to adjust. Didn't work in the long run, but what has lately?

It isn't true?

Westphal played Beno for the entire fourth quarter! Beno had a HORRIBLE game! He did more bad than good. Westphal played Thompson for only five minutes TOTAL in the fourth quarter. He played Dalembert LESS than 5 minutes total in the fourth quarter!! Casspi played significant minutes (~9 minutes)

Only Evans & Greene were the remaining starting unit that played significant minutes.

The point was he did NOT played the starting unit TOGETHER! Not ONE minute TOGETHER!

If you think he should have stuck with that starting lineup I can't argue, but hindsight's 20/20. Had he put them in and the game continued on the path it was headed down we still would've have lost. Obviously now that the game is over give it a shot! hahaha.

Hindsight 20/20? That unit was successful ALL NIGHT LONG! The lineup was EASILY the MOST troublesome for the Bulls.

[SacKingZZZ]

You are accusing me of not watching the game and deriving my opinions to....score numbers? I could easily give you a play by play & every commentary from Grant & Jerry but I don't have the time to do that. But you have my word that I WATCHED the game (and re-watched it last night).

Before the 2:52 mark of the third quarter, the team was pretty much dead-even against the Bulls. Heck, you can argue that the unit was BETTER for the most part!

You also act like the major parts of that starting unit didn't play at all in the 4th when that just isn't true. Westphal started a lineup that's true impact is going to be a run up and down scoring game and THAT STOPPED BEING EFFECTIVE. He actually made a call that had some merit and it didn't really seem like his usual quick yank reaction on most of his rotations. It showed me that he recognized a problem and at least TRIED to adjust. Didn't work in the long run, but what has lately?

It isn't true?

Westphal played Beno for the entire fourth quarter! Beno had a HORRIBLE game! He did more bad than good. Westphal played Thompson for only five minutes TOTAL in the fourth quarter. He played Dalembert LESS than 5 minutes total in the fourth quarter!! Casspi played significant minutes (~9 minutes)

Only Evans & Greene were the remaining starting unit that played significant minutes.

The point was he did NOT played the starting unit TOGETHER! Not ONE minute TOGETHER!

If you think he should have stuck with that starting lineup I can't argue, but hindsight's 20/20. Had he put them in and the game continued on the path it was headed down we still would've have lost. Obviously now that the game is over give it a shot! hahaha.

Hindsight 20/20? That unit was successful ALL NIGHT LONG! The lineup was EASILY the MOST troublesome for the Bulls.

All night long, except for the 3rd quarter! They started playing like crap, just because the Bulls were matching that crap with their own as they began to wake up doesn't mean they weren't sinking. That team wasn't going to win a slow down half court game from what they showed in the 3rd. The Bulls were going to start scoring eventually. That is why he took those guys out and all I'm saying is I can see why he did it. You really can't see any reason for doing that? The drop off from that team wasn't sudden. It lingered through most of the 3rd quarter with little bits of redeeming spurts here and there.

The one thing I didn't like was that he had a chance to exploit Deng defending JT and didn't go to it. He didn't give Jason enough rope to hang himself with so to speak.

[KF10]

All night long, except for the 3rd quarter! They started playing like crap, just because the Bulls were matching that crap with their own as they began to wake up doesn't mean they weren't sinking. That team wasn't going to win a slow down half court game from what they showed in the 3rd. The Bulls were going to start scoring eventually. That is why he took those guys out and all I'm saying is I can see why he did it. You really can't see any reason for doing that? The drop off from that team wasn't sudden. It lingered through most of the 3rd quarter with little bits of redeeming spurts here and there.

The one thing I didn't like was that he had a chance to exploit Deng defending JT and didn't go to it. He didn't give Jason enough rope to hang himself with so to speak.

I'm not buying what you are selling.

We agree to disagree. I'm gonna leave it as that.

[SacKingZZZ]

Hahaha. I really don't think we're disagreeing, I think it's just that I can kind of see why Westphal did what he did, with the exclusion of benching JT, and you don't see why he did it. Both are valid, and like I said, since we lost and hindsights 20/20 you could probably be right!