Joerger/Fox

[kingjawn100]

Simple question and probably the most important question for this current roster: Can this be a winning team with Joerger as coach and Fox as starting point guard?

Joerger, the ultimate slow down/grit & grind coach and Fox, the fastest player in the entire league. It doesn't seem we're ever gonna see the best of Fox if we are playing the same ol' half court/post heavy offense. It's the ultimate style clash that didn't really seem to work last year. Am i the only person who thinks Fox would have been a 17ppg, 7apg player last year and a lot more confident had he been on a handful of other teams?

I think this is a make or break year for Joerger and it's largely related to how he handles Fox. If Joerger doesn't open things up in terms of pace i'd like to see a new coach in 2019-2020. Of course this is all assuming Fox is good enough to design your entire offense around which remains to be seen.

[kingjawn100]

Not to mention our starting center, while he has a ton of flaws, is possibly the fastest center in the NBA.

2 of our starters are probably the fastest in the NBA at their positions yet we play one of the slowest tempos in the entire league. Just doesn't make sense

[SacKingZZZ]

To Joergers credit he did start using players better towards the end. There were steps back into the old ways at times but overall it was better. It sounded to me like he's having players do things they aren't necessarily comfortable with in order to advance their games individually. I think that's OK, but at some point you have to start using players for the abilities that sets them apart and we'll see if that starts next year. We're hearing terms like "the training wheels come off" next year, we'll see what that means because I think that doesn't just apply to the players either. I think the coaching staff and even Vlade will be graded differently next year. There has to be some sort of jump individually with someone. Playing players 25-30 mpg and having no player able to jump past 13-14 ppg and productively mean anything can't happen because Buddy, Fox, and Bogdan are capable. It's time to start gearing the shots towards the best players.

[kingjawn100]

What are realistic/hopeful numbers for Fox next year?....

Last year: 11.6ppg, 41.2 fg%, 30.7 3-pt fg%, 4.4 apg
Next year i'm hoping: 16-17ppg, 45% fg, 34% 3-pt, 6apg

Seems like a big leap but if we play a faster style it's definitely possible.

One area i'd really like to see him improve is steals. Something weird seemed to have happened. In college he got a bunch of steals and in summer league he was ultra-aggressive, looking to literally take the ball out of his opponents hands every time. I remember him getting called for a ton of reach-in fouls in summer league. It's almost like someone sat him down and said that won't work in the NBA and he got a lot less aggressive. I'd love for him to find some middle ground since any steal he gets is almost a guaranteed 2-points in transition because of his speed.

[SacKingZZZ]

What are realistic/hopeful numbers for Fox next year?....

Last year: 11.6ppg, 41.2 fg%, 30.7 3-pt fg%, 4.4 apg
Next year i'm hoping: 16-17ppg, 45% fg, 34% 3-pt, 6apg

Seems like a big leap but if we play a faster style it's definitely possible.

One area i'd really like to see him improve is steals. Something weird seemed to have happened. In college he got a bunch of steals and in summer league he was ultra-aggressive, looking to literally take the ball out of his opponents hands every time. I remember him getting called for a ton of reach-in fouls in summer league. It's almost like someone sat him down and said that won't work in the NBA and he got a lot less aggressive. I'd love for him to find some middle ground since any steal he gets is almost a guaranteed 2-points in transition because of his speed.

Fox is 19/20. I think he's a player you don't really start judging numerically yet and I don't think that's how they even want him looking at the game at this point. Buddy, Bogdan, Willie, Skal, etc. are older and will be in that 3rd/4th year range where they should be given more leeway to perform up to their expectations. The question hovering over them is whether they can all succeed as individuals simultaneously. If not you have to build value and make adjustments.

[kingjawn100]

What are realistic/hopeful numbers for Fox next year?....

Last year: 11.6ppg, 41.2 fg%, 30.7 3-pt fg%, 4.4 apg
Next year i'm hoping: 16-17ppg, 45% fg, 34% 3-pt, 6apg

Seems like a big leap but if we play a faster style it's definitely possible.

One area i'd really like to see him improve is steals. Something weird seemed to have happened. In college he got a bunch of steals and in summer league he was ultra-aggressive, looking to literally take the ball out of his opponents hands every time. I remember him getting called for a ton of reach-in fouls in summer league. It's almost like someone sat him down and said that won't work in the NBA and he got a lot less aggressive. I'd love for him to find some middle ground since any steal he gets is almost a guaranteed 2-points in transition because of his speed.

Fox is 19/20. I think he's a player you don't really start judging numerically yet and I don't think that's how they even want him looking at the game at this point. Buddy, Bogdan, Willie, Skal, etc. are older and will be in that 3rd/4th year range where they should be given more leeway to perform up to their expectations. The question hovering over them is whether they can all succeed as individuals simultaneously. If not you have to build value and make adjustments.

Not judging solely on stats but if he's averaging 11 and 4 in year two we may have an issue. The biggest thing i want to see rise are his field goal attempts per game (which will in turn improve his scoring). Also, for a guy with the ball in his hands so much 4.4 assists seems to be on the low-end.

[SacKingZZZ]

What are realistic/hopeful numbers for Fox next year?....

Last year: 11.6ppg, 41.2 fg%, 30.7 3-pt fg%, 4.4 apg
Next year i'm hoping: 16-17ppg, 45% fg, 34% 3-pt, 6apg

Seems like a big leap but if we play a faster style it's definitely possible.

One area i'd really like to see him improve is steals. Something weird seemed to have happened. In college he got a bunch of steals and in summer league he was ultra-aggressive, looking to literally take the ball out of his opponents hands every time. I remember him getting called for a ton of reach-in fouls in summer league. It's almost like someone sat him down and said that won't work in the NBA and he got a lot less aggressive. I'd love for him to find some middle ground since any steal he gets is almost a guaranteed 2-points in transition because of his speed.

Fox is 19/20. I think he's a player you don't really start judging numerically yet and I don't think that's how they even want him looking at the game at this point. Buddy, Bogdan, Willie, Skal, etc. are older and will be in that 3rd/4th year range where they should be given more leeway to perform up to their expectations. The question hovering over them is whether they can all succeed as individuals simultaneously. If not you have to build value and make adjustments.

Not judging solely on stats but if he's averaging 11 and 4 in year two we may have an issue. The biggest thing i want to see rise are his field goal attempts per game (which will in turn improve his scoring). Also, for a guy with the ball in his hands so much 4.4 assists seems to be on the low-end.

I think it depends on what his role is because as evidenced by the end of the season semi-breakouts when some of those minimal roles early were finally shelved, role can seriously hamstring a players ability to rise as an individual. I'd certainly like to see him used more to his strengths and I think his productivity should go up based on that. I will say I don't think Fox or the Kings are doomed if he never develops into some monolithic stat monster because he's as intriguing for his defensive potential as much as he his for his offensive potential.

I mentioned this quite a bit during the year but go back and look at Fox's role in the offense. He played off the ball more than I ever thought he would and more than he probably should. The Kings don't run a true PG oriented offense so it's hard to look at any one players assist numbers. I agree, 11 and 4 would be underwhelming if they are really going to give the young guys the ball next year but you still have to see what the circumstances are.

[kingjawn100]

Fox is 19/20. I think he's a player you don't really start judging numerically yet and I don't think that's how they even want him looking at the game at this point. Buddy, Bogdan, Willie, Skal, etc. are older and will be in that 3rd/4th year range where they should be given more leeway to perform up to their expectations. The question hovering over them is whether they can all succeed as individuals simultaneously. If not you have to build value and make adjustments.

Not judging solely on stats but if he's averaging 11 and 4 in year two we may have an issue. The biggest thing i want to see rise are his field goal attempts per game (which will in turn improve his scoring). Also, for a guy with the ball in his hands so much 4.4 assists seems to be on the low-end.

I think it depends on what his role is because as evidenced by the end of the season semi-breakouts when some of those minimal roles early were finally shelved, role can seriously hamstring a players ability to rise as an individual. I'd certainly like to see him used more to his strengths and I think his productivity should go up based on that. I will say I don't think Fox or the Kings are doomed if he never develops into some monolithic stat monster because he's as intriguing for his defensive potential as much as he his for his offensive potential.

I mentioned this quite a bit during the year but go back and look at Fox's role in the offense. He played off the ball more than I ever thought he would and more than he probably should. The Kings don't run a true PG oriented offense so it's hard to look at any one players assist numbers. I agree, 11 and 4 would be underwhelming if they are really going to give the young guys the ball next year but you still have to see what the circumstances are.

All true...I just think based on the limitations of the current roster (and the fact that free agents don't come here), if Fox doesn't eventually develop into a 20&10 guy we are in deep trouble because we really only have 2 other guys who can be counted on to score even 15 a night.

i will say, sometimes watching Fox i get the impression he never had to learn many other skills prior to the NBA because he could just beat everyone with his straight-line speed. Like...at this point he's not very crafty getting his shot off at the rim, he's not a great facilitator and he's not a great shooter (not saying he can't be but he's not now). It's never really mattered until now because he could always get 20 points purely based off speed.

[teerfour+40LG]

With Joerger as coach? Yes.
With Fox as starting PG? No.

To me, it doesn't look like Fox knows how to play basketball. He's like the anti-Bogdan.

[SacKingZZZ]

With Joerger as coach? Yes.
With Fox as starting PG? No.

To me, it doesn't look like Fox knows how to play basketball. He's like the anti-Bogdan.

Hold on a minute, it's like with people proclaiming Mason to be better than Fox. Fox is 20. Think about this, in another 5-6 years Fox will be the same age as Bogdan. In another 4 years he'll be the same age as Mason. Fox has abilities that those other two will never have. If he can develop half the game they have he'll surpass both at hyper speed. Fox is someone you give some slack to right now. He'll take more time but the payoff potential is so much higher than almost anyone on the team currently.

[KF10]

For me, what makes a great coach is that he adapts to the players, not the other way around. And from what I've seen, Fox, Buddy and Bogi are the Kings best players. Joerger runs an archaic, slow paced system (his system doesn't emphasizes the 3-pt shot and getting to the line & over-values 2pters) and it is not to the strengths for most of the players (and today's NBA). Either he adapts to his players and with the NBA's current landscape or he's needs to go. Simple as that.

[sacking123]

To Joergers credit he did start using players better towards the end. There were steps back into the old ways at times but overall it was better. It sounded to me like he's having players do things they aren't necessarily comfortable with in order to advance their games individually. I think that's OK, but at some point you have to start using players for the abilities that sets them apart and we'll see if that starts next year. We're hearing terms like "the training wheels come off" next year, we'll see what that means because I think that doesn't just apply to the players either. I think the coaching staff and even Vlade will be graded differently next year. There has to be some sort of jump individually with someone. Playing players 25-30 mpg and having no player able to jump past 13-14 ppg and productively mean anything can't happen because Buddy, Fox, and Bogdan are capable. It's time to start gearing the shots towards the best players.

Sorry for dragging up an older post, however I just noticed this. While I completely agree with you this isn't the first time I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that this has happened with DJ. Weren't we saying similar things the year prior?
I would love to back DJ all the way and I believe he is a good coach, however I just don't see that he has the ability to pivot from his own beliefs.
Again one of the things that tells me this is the day he was hired he said something along the lines of "Myself and Vlade have a very similar belief on basketball and that is one of the reasons I am here."
I could be wrong here, however nothing could be further from the truth, Vlade is putting together a group of young players that look like they play the game the way he loves, however Joerger doesn't coach that way. Never has and I doubt it ever gets to the level that is required with this group.
Blind Freddy could see all season what our strengths were. Number one thing about coaching any young team is to ensure there is pace. IMO he had a great opportunity to play two separate line ups last season, vets and kids. The vets can teach the kids what they did wrong in film sessions practice, we weren't going anywhere anyway and who knows we could have had a 3-4 slot with the ping pong balls.
Hill (initially)/Temple/VC/ZBo/KK
Fox/Hield/Bogi/Skal/WCS
Mason/JJ/Papa etc would have to play their way into line ups/injuries etc.
I would love coach to prove me wrong on play style, however

[LightTheBeam]

For me, what makes a great coach is that he adapts to the players, not the other way around. And from what I've seen, Fox, Buddy and Bogi are the Kings best players. Joerger runs an archaic, slow paced system (his system doesn't emphasizes the 3-pt shot and getting to the line & over-values 2pters) and it is not to the strengths for most of the players (and today's NBA). Either he adapts to his players and with the NBA's current landscape or he's needs to go. Simple as that.

Sadly this is as true as it gets.

[blind prophet]

Karl really bothered me when Cousins was here, but with Fox & WCS I'm curious what he could of pulled off.

[kalenclayton]

Karl really bothered me when Cousins was here, but with Fox & WCS I'm curious what he could of pulled off.

I was so frustrated with Karl when he was here, but he would kill it with this squad. Fox would probably be scoring 20ppg. Willie would look like a low rebounding Kenneth Faried.

[SacKingZZZ]

To Joergers credit he did start using players better towards the end. There were steps back into the old ways at times but overall it was better. It sounded to me like he's having players do things they aren't necessarily comfortable with in order to advance their games individually. I think that's OK, but at some point you have to start using players for the abilities that sets them apart and we'll see if that starts next year. We're hearing terms like "the training wheels come off" next year, we'll see what that means because I think that doesn't just apply to the players either. I think the coaching staff and even Vlade will be graded differently next year. There has to be some sort of jump individually with someone. Playing players 25-30 mpg and having no player able to jump past 13-14 ppg and productively mean anything can't happen because Buddy, Fox, and Bogdan are capable. It's time to start gearing the shots towards the best players.

Sorry for dragging up an older post, however I just noticed this. While I completely agree with you this isn't the first time I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that this has happened with DJ. Weren't we saying similar things the year prior?
I would love to back DJ all the way and I believe he is a good coach, however I just don't see that he has the ability to pivot from his own beliefs.
Again one of the things that tells me this is the day he was hired he said something along the lines of "Myself and Vlade have a very similar belief on basketball and that is one of the reasons I am here."
I could be wrong here, however nothing could be further from the truth, Vlade is putting together a group of young players that look like they play the game the way he loves, however Joerger doesn't coach that way. Never has and I doubt it ever gets to the level that is required with this group.
Blind Freddy could see all season what our strengths were. Number one thing about coaching any young team is to ensure there is pace. IMO he had a great opportunity to play two separate line ups last season, vets and kids. The vets can teach the kids what they did wrong in film sessions practice, we weren't going anywhere anyway and who knows we could have had a 3-4 slot with the ping pong balls.
Hill (initially)/Temple/VC/ZBo/KK
Fox/Hield/Bogi/Skal/WCS
Mason/JJ/Papa etc would have to play their way into line ups/injuries etc.
I would love coach to prove me wrong on play style, however

No question, this is now the proving ground. How the next year starts is going to be extremely important and what Vlade does this summer will reflect the possibilities of how it can either make sense or won't. Anyone could also see the numerous ways last summer could lead into what it eventually did lead into during the year which was mostly failure in attempting to toe the line of experience and youth.

[SacKingZZZ]

Karl really bothered me when Cousins was here, but with Fox & WCS I'm curious what he could of pulled off.

I was so frustrated with Karl when he was here, but he would kill it with this squad. Fox would probably be scoring 20ppg. Willie would look like a low rebounding Kenneth Faried.

The Kings always seem to make the right moves out of sequence. They ditched a hall of fame coach first, then ditched the hall of fame player they chose over that coach anyway.

[kingjawn100]

A part of me thinks we make a little too much of the uptempo thing. Just watching games in general it seems like there are far fewer true fast breaks than there were say in the showtime 80's. There are so many would be breaks these days where the ball handler just gets fouled at midcourt to prevent an easy basket (a play i hate and feel should be rewarded with 1-shot and the ball).
But Think about it. How often do we see those true 2-on-1 type of fast breaks where magic and worthy pass the ball back and forth en route to a layup? Seems like a dying play.

Now what im in favor of is quicker shots from this Kings team which is another way to push tempo/keep defenses on their heels.

Either way i do think Fox would benefit from a different coach or at least a more flexible one. What De'aaron should do this summer is look at the multitude of ways Donovan Mitchell can score and start trying to adopt other moves to his game. May sound harsh but at this point Fox seems like a sprinter while Mitchell seems like a basketball player.

[SacKingZZZ]

A part of me thinks we make a little too much of the uptempo thing. Just watching games in general it seems like there are far fewer true fast breaks than there were say in the showtime 80's. There are so many would be breaks these days where the ball handler just gets fouled at midcourt to prevent an easy basket (a play i hate and feel should be rewarded with 1-shot and the ball).
But Think about it. How often do we see those true 2-on-1 type of fast breaks where magic and worthy pass the ball back and forth en route to a layup? Seems like a dying play.

Now what im in favor of is quicker shots from this Kings team which is another way to push tempo/keep defenses on their heels.

Either way i do think Fox would benefit from a different coach or at least a more flexible one. What De'aaron should do this summer is look at the multitude of ways Donovan Mitchell can score and start trying to adopt other moves to his game. May sound harsh but at this point Fox seems like a sprinter while Mitchell seems like a basketball player.

I agree, it's not really the up tempo thing that's the issue, but attacking defensively and creating turnovers leading to breakouts won't be so bad with roadrunner like Fox at the helm. I think the more important thing is spreading the floor and getting shots up earlier in the clock rather like you bring up than running clock and lowering the number of attempts per game. It's like many posters complaints with Buddy, by the numbers he was an elite catch and shoot player that didn't take nearly enough. Catch and shoot opportunities can be a definitive way of increasing pace. Grit and grind doesn't seem like a good fit with the roster as it sits and spreading the floor so Fox can be Fox and set up his catch and shoot guys will change the entire basis of how this team operates and the pace should go up as a result.

[City of Trees]

Everytime I play 2k I fire Jeorger to hire a coach who can work with Fox. Must be true in real life too.

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