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Rotation if the season started today

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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#121 » by codydaze » Wed Aug 8, 2018 4:52 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:Doubt the Wizards match Oubre. They are already in the Luxery tax and they aren’t matching a back up to Porter.

If they want to keep Oubre I can see them shopping Porter Jr. at the deadline. Although that contract might be something no team wants any part of. I wouldn't.

No, there plan is to keep Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter. It will hurt - but that is the plan. I am thinking they are going to try to move Mahimni before the trade deadline. They would either include a first or Oubre.

It will be fascinating.


If Oubre were to get offered anything more than 10 million, which is very likely, there's no chance Washington would match. They'll already be paying Wall/Beal/Porter 90 million between the three of them. Washington will only match if they can trade Porter.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#122 » by dckingsfan » Wed Aug 8, 2018 6:08 pm

codydaze wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:If they want to keep Oubre I can see them shopping Porter Jr. at the deadline. Although that contract might be something no team wants any part of. I wouldn't.

No, there plan is to keep Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter. It will hurt - but that is the plan. I am thinking they are going to try to move Mahimni before the trade deadline. They would either include a first or Oubre.

It will be fascinating.

If Oubre were to get offered anything more than 10 million, which is very likely, there's no chance Washington would match. They'll already be paying Wall/Beal/Porter 90 million between the three of them. Washington will only match if they can trade Porter.

We will see. I think they would match up to $12M. Remember, the luxury tax goes to 130M+ next season. And he is a restricted FA, so there is that...
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#123 » by SacKingZZZ » Wed Aug 8, 2018 7:28 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:Doubt the Wizards match Oubre. They are already in the Luxery tax and they aren’t matching a back up to Porter.

If they want to keep Oubre I can see them shopping Porter Jr. at the deadline. Although that contract might be something no team wants any part of. I wouldn't.

No, there plan is to keep Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter. It will hurt - but that is the plan. I am thinking they are going to try to move Mahimni before the trade deadline. They would either include a first or Oubre.

It will be fascinating.



I'm interested to see how the season plays out with there being such a dominant upper crust in both conferences. Especially the west. Are the teams sitting in the middle finally going to cave and attempt to change things up, or stay on the treadmill?
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#124 » by SacKingZZZ » Wed Aug 8, 2018 7:31 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
codydaze wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:No, there plan is to keep Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter. It will hurt - but that is the plan. I am thinking they are going to try to move Mahimni before the trade deadline. They would either include a first or Oubre.

It will be fascinating.

If Oubre were to get offered anything more than 10 million, which is very likely, there's no chance Washington would match. They'll already be paying Wall/Beal/Porter 90 million between the three of them. Washington will only match if they can trade Porter.

We will see. I think they would match up to $12M. Remember, the luxury tax goes to 130M+ next season. And he is a restricted FA, so there is that...



Yeah, it seems like teams will just eat it and do what they can to not lose talent. I don't know why sometimes. Especially teams that might miss the window of when the Warriors and Rockets start slipping. I think it might be better to be 3-4 years off like the Kings than being a team destined to peak during that domination.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#125 » by dckingsfan » Wed Aug 8, 2018 8:32 pm

SacKingZZZ wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
codydaze wrote:If Oubre were to get offered anything more than 10 million, which is very likely, there's no chance Washington would match. They'll already be paying Wall/Beal/Porter 90 million between the three of them. Washington will only match if they can trade Porter.

We will see. I think they would match up to $12M. Remember, the luxury tax goes to 130M+ next season. And he is a restricted FA, so there is that...

Yeah, it seems like teams will just eat it and do what they can to not lose talent. I don't know why sometimes. Especially teams that might miss the window of when the Warriors and Rockets start slipping. I think it might be better to be 3-4 years off like the Kings than being a team destined to peak during that domination.

Maybe they think there team is better than it really is? You pose a good question.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#126 » by dckingsfan » Wed Aug 8, 2018 11:36 pm

And since Fox is clearly the key - what improvements do you expect to see in his game first?
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#127 » by KF10 » Wed Aug 8, 2018 11:57 pm

In my opinion, Fox tends to blend in the background for most of the game last season. I think he needs to be more assertive and rely more of his talent. I believe he can be the next premier attacking (point) guard but at the same time, can provide a calm steady game play when needed. Last year, I feel he had a hard time differentiating those two things and keeping it at a balance rate. He was stuck between those things and didn't know what to do. We see him what he can do in clutch situations, so we know he has a killer instinct when the time is right.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#128 » by SacKingZZZ » Thu Aug 9, 2018 8:31 pm

KF10 wrote:In my opinion, Fox tends to blend in the background for most of the game last season. I think he needs to be more assertive and rely more of his talent. I believe he can be the next premier attacking (point) guard but at the same time, can provide a calm steady game play when needed. Last year, I feel he had a hard time differentiating those two things and keeping it at a balance rate. He was stuck between those things and didn't know what to do. We see him what he can do in clutch situations, so we know he has a killer instinct when the time is right.



More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#129 » by Sactowndog » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:53 pm

SacKingZZZ wrote:
KF10 wrote:In my opinion, Fox tends to blend in the background for most of the game last season. I think he needs to be more assertive and rely more of his talent. I believe he can be the next premier attacking (point) guard but at the same time, can provide a calm steady game play when needed. Last year, I feel he had a hard time differentiating those two things and keeping it at a balance rate. He was stuck between those things and didn't know what to do. We see him what he can do in clutch situations, so we know he has a killer instinct when the time is right.



More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#130 » by SacKingZZZ » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:58 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
KF10 wrote:In my opinion, Fox tends to blend in the background for most of the game last season. I think he needs to be more assertive and rely more of his talent. I believe he can be the next premier attacking (point) guard but at the same time, can provide a calm steady game play when needed. Last year, I feel he had a hard time differentiating those two things and keeping it at a balance rate. He was stuck between those things and didn't know what to do. We see him what he can do in clutch situations, so we know he has a killer instinct when the time is right.



More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.


I assumed all the posters here were all on board with what all the numbers meant last year. This article is something you should read if you haven't already. It explains all that needs to be explained. I'm talking in attempts as well and we've talked about this ad nauseam. Them being 27th in the league in attempts nullifies any and all positives gained from them being a great 3 point shooting team percentage wise. It's points directly back to usage when you get to the end of this line. Wall also wasn't seeing this much horn play with two bigs and a window the width of his shoulders to get through on most drives.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#131 » by dckingsfan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:57 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
KF10 wrote:In my opinion, Fox tends to blend in the background for most of the game last season. I think he needs to be more assertive and rely more of his talent. I believe he can be the next premier attacking (point) guard but at the same time, can provide a calm steady game play when needed. Last year, I feel he had a hard time differentiating those two things and keeping it at a balance rate. He was stuck between those things and didn't know what to do. We see him what he can do in clutch situations, so we know he has a killer instinct when the time is right.



More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.

So, the #1 thing you would like to see from Fox this year is to get more open attempts from the 3 point line. I can't argue with that. It is one thing to have a good shooting 3 point team, another if there is a low number of attempts.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#132 » by dckingsfan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:03 pm

SacKingZZZ wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:

More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.


I assumed all the posters here were all on board with what all the numbers meant last year. This article is something you should read if you haven't already. It explains all that needs to be explained. I'm talking in attempts as well and we've talked about this ad nauseam. Them being 27th in the league in attempts nullifies any and all positives gained from them being a great 3 point shooting team percentage wise. It's points directly back to usage when you get to the end of this line. Wall also wasn't seeing this much horn play with two bigs and a window the width of his shoulders to get through on most drives.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense

No question this will be a liability - if Joerger continues to slow down the offense, starts Randolph and tries to run an inside out game - well, end of game (and probably end of coach).
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#133 » by Sactowndog » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:06 am

SacKingZZZ wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:

More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.


I assumed all the posters here were all on board with what all the numbers meant last year. This article is something you should read if you haven't already. It explains all that needs to be explained. I'm talking in attempts as well and we've talked about this ad nauseam. Them being 27th in the league in attempts nullifies any and all positives gained from them being a great 3 point shooting team percentage wise. It's points directly back to usage when you get to the end of this line. Wall also wasn't seeing this much horn play with two bigs and a window the width of his shoulders to get through on most drives.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense


The article doesn’t dispute my point. The Kings had above average 3 point shooters. Yes Willie and ZBo did a poor job of finding perimeter shooters. It’s one reason why I think Giles and Beli get way more minutes. However, Fox was equally bad. He rarely got into the lane and passed to open 3 point shooters.

Bogdan shot while Fox was on the floor.
Left corner 3: 75%
Right corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 40.3%

But only has .5 more attempts when Fox was on the floor. I’m tired of excuses for Fox’s crap point guard play. He was 100th in offensive rating for rookies. He needs to get the ball to open shooters and stop forcing shots against a sagging defense.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#134 » by Sactowndog » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:25 am

dckingsfan wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:

More assertive and more space. They go hand in hand. If the Kings aren't one of the top 3 point shooting catch and shoot teams next year, or at least in the upper half on the league then it's time to start thinking seriously about how to rectify that.


You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.

So, the #1 thing you would like to see from Fox this year is to get more open attempts from the 3 point line. I can't argue with that. It is one thing to have a good shooting 3 point team, another if there is a low number of attempts.


No Fox is a horrible 3 point shooter but he can collapse a defense due to his quickness. I want to see Fox get a foot in the paint and kick the ball out to Bogdan, Beli and Buddy. All three are top 50 3 point shooters percentage wise for players with over 150 attempts. Beli replaces Temple who was also in that group.

I have already posted how Bogdan’s percents went way up when Fox was on the floor. Same story with Buddy.
Percent when Fox is on the floor
Right corner 3: 63.6%
Left corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 48.3

Buddy attempts when Fox on the court: minus 1 full attempt. If Fox was even a marginally intelligent point guard Buddy’s attempts should be at least 1 if not 2 attempts better than when Fox is off the court. But Fox is such a poor point guard Buddy’s percentage is much better and his attempts are down 1 full attempt!!!!
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#135 » by Sactowndog » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:39 am

Just to hammer home a point. Note the Kings shooting percentages when Fox is on the floor.
Bogdan left corner 3: 75%
Buddy Right corner 3: 63.6%

As the point guard don’t you think Fox should make sure they get more than .5 attempts a game combined from those spots? Instead Fox forces contested 2’s.

Fox data on shots in the paint (non restricted area)
Fox shots in the paint (non RA): 2.5 attempts
Percentage on those shots: 34.2%

Heck even in the restricted area
Fox has 3 attempts a game at 59.9%

So in total Fox takes 5.5 attempts a game when his foot hits the paint while his top shooters get .5 attempts from their favorite spots.

You wonder why the Kings are bad... because Fox sucks and is focused on his own scoring versus winning.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#136 » by dckingsfan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:59 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.

So, the #1 thing you would like to see from Fox this year is to get more open attempts - for his teammates - from the 3 point line. I can't argue with that. It is one thing to have a good shooting 3 point team, another if there is a low number of attempts.


No Fox is a horrible 3 point shooter but he can collapse a defense due to his quickness. I want to see Fox get a foot in the paint and kick the ball out to Bogdan, Beli and Buddy. All three are top 50 3 point shooters percentage wise for players with over 150 attempts. Beli replaces Temple who was also in that group.

I have already posted how Bogdan’s percents went way up when Fox was on the floor. Same story with Buddy.
Percent when Fox is on the floor
Right corner 3: 63.6%
Left corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 48.3

Buddy attempts when Fox on the court: minus 1 full attempt. If Fox was even a marginally intelligent point guard Buddy’s attempts should be at least 1 if not 2 attempts better than when Fox is off the court. But Fox is such a poor point guard Buddy’s percentage is much better and his attempts are down 1 full attempt!!!!


Corrected and agreed...
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#137 » by SacKingZZZ » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:56 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
SacKingZZZ wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.


I assumed all the posters here were all on board with what all the numbers meant last year. This article is something you should read if you haven't already. It explains all that needs to be explained. I'm talking in attempts as well and we've talked about this ad nauseam. Them being 27th in the league in attempts nullifies any and all positives gained from them being a great 3 point shooting team percentage wise. It's points directly back to usage when you get to the end of this line. Wall also wasn't seeing this much horn play with two bigs and a window the width of his shoulders to get through on most drives.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense


The article doesn’t dispute my point.
The Kings had above average 3 point shooters. Yes Willie and ZBo did a poor job of finding perimeter shooters. It’s one reason why I think Giles and Beli get way more minutes. However, Fox was equally bad. He rarely got into the lane and passed to open 3 point shooters.

Bogdan shot while Fox was on the floor.
Left corner 3: 75%
Right corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 40.3%

But only has .5 more attempts when Fox was on the floor. I’m tired of excuses for Fox’s crap point guard play. He was 100th in offensive rating for rookies. He needs to get the ball to open shooters and stop forcing shots against a sagging defense.


Your point is that Fox doesn't or won't kick out to open 3 point shooters and the fact that they ran as much double post, horn, and paint clogging play does dispute that to some degree because obviously that's not what they were looking for out of their offense. Unless you think that Fox was the cause of the Kings mid range and slow paced insistence? To quote the article, "Sacramento simply played slowly, no matter who was in or out of the game." They were no differences with Zbo in or out. That points directly to style of play and a quick hitting pick and roll game would obviously suit someone like Fox's game far more than having him run off screens in the mid range or space for others.

Here is the biggest indicator of what was being done:

"Sacramento moved the ball through the elbow more than anyone else, hitting that spot 20.4 times per game, blowing second place Memphis out of the water (17.3), and almost doubling the league median, 13.3."

In a driving guard/drive and dish initiated offense that area of the floor should be clear. Every team runs Princeton or Triangle sets to a degree but as it says, that ball was going to Willie most of the time and the results varied. Fox may very well have been poor even under the best of circumstances but citing what he did last year, or was allowed to do, needs to be put into some context and that context dictates that they certainly didn't put him in an offense that made sense for him as a driver or the 3 point shooters on this team if that's how you were grading them.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#138 » by SacKingZZZ » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
You do know they were already the 3rd best team in 3 point shooting percentage??? Your point makes no sense.

It doesn’t matter how well they shoot if Fox or Willie never kicks the ball out to open shooters. Fox is his own cause of lack of space. He has a poor outside shot and when he drove he rarely kicked the ball out. Defenses were free to collapse without penalty. People try to compare Fox to John Wall but Wall had double the assists of Fox his rookie year.

Fox had a terrible offensive rating last year and his inability to get in the lane and find open 3 point shooters was partly why.

So, the #1 thing you would like to see from Fox this year is to get more open attempts from the 3 point line. I can't argue with that. It is one thing to have a good shooting 3 point team, another if there is a low number of attempts.


No Fox is a horrible 3 point shooter but he can collapse a defense due to his quickness. I want to see Fox get a foot in the paint and kick the ball out to Bogdan, Beli and Buddy. All three are top 50 3 point shooters percentage wise for players with over 150 attempts. Beli replaces Temple who was also in that group.

I have already posted how Bogdan’s percents went way up when Fox was on the floor. Same story with Buddy.
Percent when Fox is on the floor
Right corner 3: 63.6%
Left corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 48.3

Buddy attempts when Fox on the court: minus 1 full attempt. If Fox was even a marginally intelligent point guard Buddy’s attempts should be at least 1 if not 2 attempts better than when Fox is off the court. But Fox is such a poor point guard Buddy’s percentage is much better and his attempts are down 1 full attempt!!!!



Welcome to the club. There are plenty of vocal members here that were saying this same thing during the games, the difference is watching it go down and looking at every play unfold told the real story. I guess it comes down to whether he simply didn't kick it out, or if that wasn't the shot they were attempting to get from their offense. I point to the latter.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#139 » by dckingsfan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:41 pm

I think with Fox - the game was moving very fast for him. I think he will be able to adapt and hit his three point shooters moving forward. I don't think he was ready to do that last season - and certainly not in the first half of last season.

But there is a second piece to this in the upcoming season and that is Joeger. Will he value the three point shot and make a point to work with Fox to get those shots? Much of this will be able to be accessed early in the season by his starting lineup(s). And if he runs an inside out game. I would like to see the Cs of this team (WCS, etc.) have their usages fall big time.

This season is key in Fox's development - and Joeger has a big hand in that.
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Re: Rotation if the season started today 

Post#140 » by dckingsfan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:46 pm

↑↑↑↑

I have always thought another trade with Washington involving Wall could be good for both teams. The odds of that happening are zero of course but I would think if you replace Wall for Fox you are an instant playoff team.

For Washington, they get to get out of cap hell and they could build around Beal, Oubre and Porter. They would need to add Mahimni to the trade and Sac would need to give up a couple of young players (FC).

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