RipPizzaGuy wrote:c3j3h wrote:sdballer wrote:
This argument illustrates the issues with advanced stats lacking context
Can you give me an example of another player that put up the kind of stats that Jokic just did as a rookie and turned out to be a bust? If he keeps that up he's going to be an All Star.
Perhaps that's not fair. Maybe You could just clarify what you mean. What is it that you think I'm missing here? I'm assuming by you guys thinking that this trade concept is ridiculous that you think Cousins is worth a lot more than Jokic and other pieces then, right? Even though those other pieces would include an established player like Faried and another young player? Or do you think the Nuggets would be giving up too much?
Assuming you think Jokic isn't worthy of a Cousins trade, what is it that makes you think that? It's not like he played a tiny sample size or anything, he played 1700+ minutes over 80 games, with 55 starts. His MPG were pretty low, but he still got a lot of playing time. And some of the most impressive stats he put up this season were the Win Shares, which is a stat that typically favors players that got a lot of playing time on good teams. Or do you guys just think that scoring is more important, regardless of efficiency, and that the Advanced Stats don't matter?
Tyreke Evans ring a bell? 20-5-5, id say its pretty safe to say he isn't some star. I am truly convinced you are either 12 years old, or you really hate the Kings and are just here trolling. Which is it?
BTW Sorry mods, a man can only take so much before he has to say it.
When you make an argument like that, and respond to me in such a negative manner whilst doing it, it makes me think that you don't understand what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about raw numbers here, I'm talking about efficiency. Tyreke is actually a great example to illustrate the difference. Tyreke was the best player on a truly horrible team as a rookie. He was the only guy on that roster that was worth a ****. he stepped right in as the starting PG on Day 1 and averaged 37.2 MPG, leading the team in just about every offensive category. He showed the greta deal of talent that he had back then, but never really hit his potential because he had a fatal flaw in his game, which is the fact that he can't shoot.
But take a look at their Per 36 minute numbers, and their Advanced Statistics, and try to tell me that the 2 are comparable:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=jokicni01&y2=2010&p2=evansty01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=Once again, the discrepancy between the 2 is clear: Jokic put up stats across the board that trumped even Tyrqke's historic rookie season from an efficiency standpoint. Jokic wins in:
All of the shooting categories, from every spot on the floor, including 3p range and long 2s.
Obviously rebounds and blocks, since Jokic is a big man. But Jokic also beat Tyreke in the steal categories, and was surprising not far behind in AST% (only an 8% difference between a PG and a Center).
But again, the difference is in the advanced stats: Jokic scored higher in PER, Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, Offensive and Defensive Box Plus-Minus as well as Total Box Plus-Minus, Value Over Replacement Player, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating. Jokic even scored twice as high as Tyreke in Win Shares Per 48 minutes. And he did all of this while playing 944 fewer minutes than Tyreke did in their respective rookie seasons, at the same age.
What are the weaknesses in Jokic's game that you're all seeing and I'm not? WHat's the weakness in my argument? The guy is a special all-around player no matter which way you look at it. I feel like those of you calling me an idiot, and claiming I'm "not a Kings fan" have never actually watched Jokic play, or taken the time to look into the stats that I'm talking about.
Here is Jokic vs Marc Gasol in their rookie seasons, when Gasol was 4 years older:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2009&p1=gasolma01&y2=2016&p2=jokicni01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=Or how about Jokic vs Marc Gasol's 2014-15 season, when he was an All Star and named the 1st Team All-NBA Center? On a team that took the eventual Champion Warriors to 6 games in the 2nd round, no less:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=gasolma01&y2=2016&p2=jokicni01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=What am I missing here? Are you even looking at these stats that I'm posting, or are you simply brushing off my argument as heresy because it involves trading a player that you like? I understand a lot of Kings fans don't like the idea of trading Boogie, but there's a reason why it always comes up. It is a reality. Look at what is happening with the Thunder right now. They were 1 win away from the Finals a less than a month ago, and now they just lost Kevin Durant in Free Agency and are possibly going to have to trade Russell Westbrook because he is on an expiring contract. And they were the 3rd best team in the league last year!!! You think it can happen to OKC, but it can't happen to Sacramento???
And don't worry about the insults, they don't bother me. What bothers me more is people willfully ignore a logical argument, and instead responding with blind anger and dismissal because they disagree with the concept before even looking into it.
