NBA 2017 Draft thread. 5th pick and 10th pick.

[SacKingZZZ]

Could the Kings manipulate the draft forcing Minnesota to trade down?

First 4 goes
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Fox

At this point Minnesota is praying one of Isaac/Tatum fall. Orlando is sitting at 6 desperate for scoring.

So.... what if the Kings draft Isaac at 5, leaving Orlando to take the best scorer in Tatum at 6. Now at 7 Minnesota has no wing to pick from, a trade down to 10 should be in order. Boom. Kings move up to 7 and draft DSJ.

Oh hey SacKingzzz, I think Isaac/DSJ fit your team structure requirements haha.

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Isaac would probably have more impact as a low usage, role guy I guess, but the problem is still the PG/SG spot.

[benchmobbin02]

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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I agree, and that's my main concern with someone like DSJ, because he hasn't shown much of anything as a defender and he's a classic brickhouse stubby PG. That doesn't mean he's doomed or anything just from his physical makeup of course, he's probably somewhat similar to Kyle Lowry physically and he has had a presence defensively in his career.

Length can factor for sure, but there was a previous thread where I pointed out that excessive length isn't necessarily key, especially at SF if many of the last few years worth of defensively worthy players are considered. I think the most important factor is the ability to find defensively versatile players that can cover more than one match up. And yes, size, length and physicality will be a factor in how that would be able to play out. Which goes back to my concern with DSJ/Buddy. Buddy has some good length, size wise he's average, but I haven't seen the ability yet that says he'll be able to switch onto the ball against craftier ball handlers. We are seeing what happens when a team like Golden State just waits for the match up they want off of screens. Kyrie gets switched onto a post player because he's not a great pick and roll defender and they take the easiest route, they help, they get destroyed from outside.

The two PG's in this draft that look like ideal partners for Buddy are Mitchell and Ntilikina. I just think it might be more worth it to find the most bang for your buck as opposed to what looks best sitting on the shelf. The question would be, how much does someone like DSJ or Buddy or Tatum help your team getting 8-9 shots a game? We've seen Buddy in that situation with the Pels already. Not great so far.

I will say though, that I do think Tatum will be a solid defender eventually.

Alot if they work on their shooting efficiency. Having a games where 2 guys get 12+ shots and the other 2 ( I'm counting Skal as well) offense dominate players take under 10 shots is not a problem at all as long as they are about the team and playing team defense.

[SacKingZZZ]

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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Klay wasn't a good defender coming in the league. Just long and learned how to play with the team in group defense. Plus is switched to better length advantage matchups in many cases.

He's not that long really. He's got less length than Bogdanovic and Buddy Hield. Klay has a 6'9" wingspan to Bogdans 6'11"+. His real advantage is that he's huge and strong enough to check some PF's. That's not a feature you are likely to see with a DSJ/Buddy back court.

[City of Trees]

Could the Kings manipulate the draft forcing Minnesota to trade down?

First 4 goes
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Fox

At this point Minnesota is praying one of Isaac/Tatum fall. Orlando is sitting at 6 desperate for scoring.

So.... what if the Kings draft Isaac at 5, leaving Orlando to take the best scorer in Tatum at 6. Now at 7 Minnesota has no wing to pick from, a trade down to 10 should be in order. Boom. Kings move up to 7 and draft DSJ.

Oh hey SacKingzzz, I think Isaac/DSJ fit your team structure requirements haha.

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Isaac would probably have more impact as a low usage, role guy I guess, but the problem is still the PG/SG spot.

On a crappy team DSJ only took 3 shots more per game than Collison did this season on the Kings.

I give up with you on DSJ/Buddy. I like it. You dont. I'm cool with that.


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[SacKingZZZ]

Could the Kings manipulate the draft forcing Minnesota to trade down?

First 4 goes
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Fox

At this point Minnesota is praying one of Isaac/Tatum fall. Orlando is sitting at 6 desperate for scoring.

So.... what if the Kings draft Isaac at 5, leaving Orlando to take the best scorer in Tatum at 6. Now at 7 Minnesota has no wing to pick from, a trade down to 10 should be in order. Boom. Kings move up to 7 and draft DSJ.

Oh hey SacKingzzz, I think Isaac/DSJ fit your team structure requirements haha.

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Isaac would probably have more impact as a low usage, role guy I guess, but the problem is still the PG/SG spot.

On a crappy team DSJ only took 3 shots more per game than Collison did this season on the Kings.

I give up with you on DSJ/Buddy. I like it. You dont. I'm cool with that.


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I can respect that. I can agree that a DSJ/Tatum draft looks great on paper and I've already talked about that Smith Jr. does have some potential tools defensively, and there is one on one footage out there that might suggest he was purposely taking it easy on that end in college. It's just a gamble that you will get the most out of the players individually and as a team though. It goes back to Tatum being a volume guy on top of a volume guy. Isaac could ease the burden so I would probably suggest going with him if DSJ were the guy at 10 as a guarantee. It's more balanced at that point.

[benchmobbin02]

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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Klay wasn't a good defender coming in the league. Just long and learned how to play with the team in group defense. Plus is switched to better length advantage matchups in many cases.

He's not that long really. He's got less length than Bogdanovic and Buddy Hield. Klay has a 6'9" wingspan to Bogdans 6'11"+. His real advantage is that he's huge and strong enough to check some PF's. That's not a feature you are likely to see with a DSJ/Buddy back court.

No he doesn't have less length than Hield. They are about the same when their height and wingspans and standing reaches are equalized.

I expect if DSJ was the pick, the Kings would to the same as the Warriors. Just play solid team contest defense and switch to matchups that favor them.

[SacKingZZZ]

Klay wasn't a good defender coming in the league. Just long and learned how to play with the team in group defense. Plus is switched to better length advantage matchups in many cases.

He's not that long really. He's got less length than Bogdanovic and Buddy Hield. Klay has a 6'9" wingspan to Bogdans 6'11"+. His real advantage is that he's huge and strong enough to check some PF's. That's not a feature you are likely to see with a DSJ/Buddy back court.

No he doesn't have less length than Hield. They are about the same when their height and wingspans and standing reaches are equalized.

I expect if DSJ was the pick, the Kings would to the same as the Warriors. Just play solid team contest defense and switch to matchups that favor them.

Wingspan is the typical measurement of impact they go by for wings. And it's less than Buddy Hields. The standing reach does help him when defending post up situations for sure though. He's also much bigger which relates back to the initial concern of this team not having nearly that level of versatility on defense.

Because so many teams are able to do that? That's the problem, if you are going to say you are going to play solid team defense and relate it back to the Warriors you can't ignore the unique aspects of their team as a small ball unit that goes a long way into making them what they are.

[benchmobbin02]

He's not that long really. He's got less length than Bogdanovic and Buddy Hield. Klay has a 6'9" wingspan to Bogdans 6'11"+. His real advantage is that he's huge and strong enough to check some PF's. That's not a feature you are likely to see with a DSJ/Buddy back court.

No he doesn't have less length than Hield. They are about the same when their height and wingspans and standing reaches are equalized.

I expect if DSJ was the pick, the Kings would to the same as the Warriors. Just play solid team contest defense and switch to matchups that favor them.

Wingspan is the typical measurement of impact they go by for wings. And it's less than Buddy Hields. The standing reach does help him when defending post up situations for sure though. He's also much bigger which relates back to the initial concern of this team not having nearly that level of versatility on defense.

Because so many teams are able to do that? That's the problem, if you are going to say you are going to play solid team defense and relate it back to the Warriors you can't ignore the unique aspects of their team as a small ball unit that goes a long way into making them what they are.

By a 1/4 of an inch as measured by the combine. Haha GTFOH!

Also the other measurements have just as much impact when defending a player in game situations because players move and improvise. The Wing isn't just gonna stay on the wing.

I'm not talking about other teams. I'm talking about us and the type of team we could build and how they could play. Of course, slotting in the ideal height and weight guys would be nice. What I'm relating the solid team defense to is Joeger's defensive and player development pedigree matched with length to create a unit. I think we could achieve a very high level of defensive efficiency and cohesion with DSJ, Hield, Tatum, Skal and WCS. Adding the right pieces to the second unit along with Temple, Papa and Bogdan would be key as well.

[SacKingZZZ]

No he doesn't have less length than Hield. They are about the same when their height and wingspans and standing reaches are equalized.

I expect if DSJ was the pick, the Kings would to the same as the Warriors. Just play solid team contest defense and switch to matchups that favor them.

Wingspan is the typical measurement of impact they go by for wings. And it's less than Buddy Hields. The standing reach does help him when defending post up situations for sure though. He's also much bigger which relates back to the initial concern of this team not having nearly that level of versatility on defense.

Because so many teams are able to do that? That's the problem, if you are going to say you are going to play solid team defense and relate it back to the Warriors you can't ignore the unique aspects of their team as a small ball unit that goes a long way into making them what they are.

By a 1/4 of an inch as measured by the combine. Haha GTFOH!

Also the other measurements have just as much impact when defending a player in game situations because players move and improvise. The Wing isn't just gonna stay on the wing.

I'm not talking about other teams. I'm talking about us and the type of team we could build and how they could play. Of course, slotting in the ideal height and weight guys would be nice. What I'm relating the solid team defense to is Joeger's defensive and player development pedigree matched with length to create a unit. I think we could achieve a very high level of defensive efficiency and cohesion with DSJ, Hield, Tatum, Skal and WCS. Adding the right pieces to the second unit along with Temple, Papa and Bogdan would be key as well.

1/4 of an inch more. Math tells me when something is more, it's more. Right? Not a whole lot more of course and most likely nothing that would have great impact in Buddy's favor, but that wasn't the point anyway. Klay is another example of a player not being that long and still being a really good defender across 3 match ups.

I don't disagree that it's possible. But in a game of speculation I think it's more unlikely than if you hand picked specifically capable defensive personnel. Like the Warriors did when building their team. I look at the possible imbalance of that Kings team as similar to when the Warriors traded Monta Ellis because they had too much of one thing, and not enough of another. Or when they put David Lee to the back burner in favor of need. I don't think it's that far out of whack, but maybe 1 major piece to that starting lineup off. I think the eventual reality would be the same type of thing the Warriors figured out. The question is how much luster did it knock off in the meantime to one of your best assets?

[benchmobbin02]

Wingspan is the typical measurement of impact they go by for wings. And it's less than Buddy Hields. The standing reach does help him when defending post up situations for sure though. He's also much bigger which relates back to the initial concern of this team not having nearly that level of versatility on defense.

Because so many teams are able to do that? That's the problem, if you are going to say you are going to play solid team defense and relate it back to the Warriors you can't ignore the unique aspects of their team as a small ball unit that goes a long way into making them what they are.

By a 1/4 of an inch as measured by the combine. Haha GTFOH!

Also the other measurements have just as much impact when defending a player in game situations because players move and improvise. The Wing isn't just gonna stay on the wing.

I'm not talking about other teams. I'm talking about us and the type of team we could build and how they could play. Of course, slotting in the ideal height and weight guys would be nice. What I'm relating the solid team defense to is Joeger's defensive and player development pedigree matched with length to create a unit. I think we could achieve a very high level of defensive efficiency and cohesion with DSJ, Hield, Tatum, Skal and WCS. Adding the right pieces to the second unit along with Temple, Papa and Bogdan would be key as well.

1/4 of an inch more. Math tells me when something is more, it's more. Right? Not a whole lot more of course and most likely nothing that would have great impact in Buddy's favor, but that wasn't the point anyway. Klay is another example of a player not being that long and still being a really good defender across 3 match ups.

I don't disagree that it's possible. But in a game of speculation I think it's more unlikely than if you hand picked specifically capable defensive personnel. Like the Warriors did when building their team. I look at the possible imbalance of that Kings team as similar to when the Warriors traded Monta Ellis because they had too much of one thing, and not enough of another. Or when they put David Lee to the back burner in favor of need. I don't think it's that far out of whack, but maybe 1 major piece to that starting lineup off. I think the eventual reality would be the same type of thing the Warriors figured out. The question is how much luster did it knock off in the meantime to one of your best assets?

Yup and Klay developed that thru coaching and progression in his team defense.

The original point was that even if it was ideal to have more length i.e. Ntilikina or Mitchell, in the backcourt with Hield, having DSJ back there isn't as much of a detriment as you put on. Plus the Joeger factor would help in the execution. Maybe the mix doesn't work. That could be the case in any scenario. But I don't think that those players are as incompatible as Curry and Ellis were. Plus the majority of Curry's luster wasn't knocked off in those early years by having Ellis next to him. It was more him not having stable ankles.

[VeganKingsFan]

Watch on YouTube

#t=0.813937
I found this video of Frank Ntilikina. It doesn't just show highlights. I'm really impressed by his defense, effort and feel for the game to go with his great physical tools. He's only 18... I think the Knicks or Mavericks take him, but if not, I could see him developing really well on the Kings.

[City of Trees]

Watch on YouTube

#t=0.813937
I found this video of Frank Ntilikina. It doesn't just show highlights. I'm really impressed by his defense, effort and feel for the game to go with his great physical tools. He's only 18... I think the Knicks or Mavericks take him, but if not, I could see him developing really well on the Kings.

Ntilikina is a bit of a project. You're basically drafting his frame and wingspan, praying you can develop his skills. I think he's better served as a back up his rookie year.

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[City of Trees]

Vlade has something up his sleeve and its not cigarettes

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[benchmobbin02]

So we have to ask the question...

Would you be mad at 5th and 10th for 1st?

Obviously other things would need to be included but generally would you be ok losing 2 lotto pick to get Fultz?

In terms of a potential deal, I don't know...

Maybe

Celtics get 5th, 10th and WCS

Sacramento get 1st and a 2nd rd pick

Just spitballing

[City of Trees]

So we have to ask the question...

Would you be mad at 5th and 10th for 1st?

Obviously other things would need to be included but generally would you be ok losing 2 lotto pick to get Fultz?

In terms of a potential deal, I don't know...

Maybe

Celtics get 5th, 10th and WCS

Sacramento get 1st and a 2nd rd pick

Just spitballing

I like Fultz but man I really dont like trading both lotto picks and Willie. I've watched enough of Fultz to know he wasn't an innocent party at UW, he shares the blame for the loses. I'm going to say No because it leaves the team with more holes.

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[jazanetti]

I think Fultz for #5 and Willie is good deal. And we can pick Collins/Allen/Patton with #10.

[SacKingZZZ]

Vlade has something up his sleeve and its not cigarettes

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IIRC there was a connection to Perry somewhere in the Fultz camp so it could be tied to that. He interviewed with Sac at the combine as well.

[SacKingZZZ]

So we have to ask the question...

Would you be mad at 5th and 10th for 1st?

Obviously other things would need to be included but generally would you be ok losing 2 lotto pick to get Fultz?

In terms of a potential deal, I don't know...

Maybe

Celtics get 5th, 10th and WCS

Sacramento get 1st and a 2nd rd pick

Just spitballing

I like Fultz but man I really dont like trading both lotto picks and Willie. I've watched enough of Fultz to know he wasn't an innocent party at UW, he shares the blame for the loses. I'm going to say No because it leaves the team with more holes.

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Fultz is another guy that along with Buddy could very well form a terrible defensive duo. The potential is too high for that to be an issue if he were able to be drafted by the Kings of course, but I agree, I think it's just too much going back. I don't like the idea of the Kings moving any young core pieces right now, especially the guy that looks like the center of the future for Sac.

[dckingsfan]

You can't necessarily trust mock drafts and what GMs are saying but... I don't think there is anyway that Fox makes it to 5. I think we end up with Dennis Smith at 5 - just have this bad feeling.

[benchmobbin02]

I think Fultz for #5 and Willie is good deal. And we can pick Collins/Allen/Patton with #10.

Yeah that is more palatable for us as fans. Question is would Boston accept that?