NBA 2017 Draft thread. 5th pick and 10th pick.

[dozencousins]

When are you going to give up? If people question you just ignore them. I don't believe you know anything more than any of us or that is out there on the internet. A lot of what you post is opinion and that is fine. Just post what you want and stop getting offended by what other people think.

Doubting me as you do does not bother me . It is offensive when somebody speaks as if they know I don't have a source .
I don't claim to know anymore than anyone else . I don't care if I do or don't at all . If I felt I did though I would in most cases keep that to myself as I do not come here for nonsense .
I see posts were I think an opinion etc. makes no sense etc. but I keep all that to myself as to me it is childish to make statements that are in bad taste . I cannot claim to be perfect about that but I really try .

I will say things I post about rumors trade & draft are not made up . These are things I know for a fact . As all rumors , talks between teams etc. most all of what is talked about does not end up happening . That does not make me out to be a liar at all .
I have been proven correct a number of times . Most rumors I post won't happen as 99.5 % or higher of all rumors true rumors or not do not happen . Their is no way I or anyone else can be right all the time . Woj as everyone knows is the most reliable and accurate reporter about the NBA more than anyone . I don't claim to be anywhere's close to his level . I have 1 source he has tons of sources.
My recent reports of rumors are true . Yes some info I Provide is already known about or has been released however I have provided information many of times that has not been reported or was reported after I posted information here .

Look I don't really care. I'm just telling you to stop posting posts like the one you just replied to me. Whether I or others in this forum believe you who cares. You have the right to post what you want and people can agree or disagree with it. The thing that gets old is the type of post you just replied to me trying to validate yourself and justify "most trades won't occur, etc....blah blah blah. You're stating the obvious. At this point you're so far deep whether you're lying or not you almost have to continue on with this source thing or otherwise you might as well delete your handle and start fresh as someone new.

With all that being said...don't get defensive, continue to post basketball related thoughts, opinions or rumors. Contribute to the forum but stop justifying and trying to validate yourself. It derails thread whether you initiate or respond to someone else.

Worry about yourself . You do not need to tell me or anyone else what to say or not say etc.
You can stay out of it . Enough said .

[benchmobbin02]

Doubting me as you do does not bother me . It is offensive when somebody speaks as if they know I don't have a source .
I don't claim to know anymore than anyone else . I don't care if I do or don't at all . If I felt I did though I would in most cases keep that to myself as I do not come here for nonsense .
I see posts were I think an opinion etc. makes no sense etc. but I keep all that to myself as to me it is childish to make statements that are in bad taste . I cannot claim to be perfect about that but I really try .

I will say things I post about rumors trade & draft are not made up . These are things I know for a fact . As all rumors , talks between teams etc. most all of what is talked about does not end up happening . That does not make me out to be a liar at all .
I have been proven correct a number of times . Most rumors I post won't happen as 99.5 % or higher of all rumors true rumors or not do not happen . Their is no way I or anyone else can be right all the time . Woj as everyone knows is the most reliable and accurate reporter about the NBA more than anyone . I don't claim to be anywhere's close to his level . I have 1 source he has tons of sources.
My recent reports of rumors are true . Yes some info I Provide is already known about or has been released however I have provided information many of times that has not been reported or was reported after I posted information here .

Look I don't really care. I'm just telling you to stop posting posts like the one you just replied to me. Whether I or others in this forum believe you who cares. You have the right to post what you want and people can agree or disagree with it. The thing that gets old is the type of post you just replied to me trying to validate yourself and justify "most trades won't occur, etc....blah blah blah. You're stating the obvious. At this point you're so far deep whether you're lying or not you almost have to continue on with this source thing or otherwise you might as well delete your handle and start fresh as someone new.

With all that being said...don't get defensive, continue to post basketball related thoughts, opinions or rumors. Contribute to the forum but stop justifying and trying to validate yourself. It derails thread whether you initiate or respond to someone else.

Worry about yourself . You do not need to tell me or anyone else what to say or not say etc.
You can stay out of it . Enough said .

A few questions you may or may not have answered already...I just don't remember

Does your source know you are posting this info on message boards and is that the reason they are giving it to you(to be posted for fans and whoever else to see)?

Do they tell you all this over the phone, in emails or in person?

[rpa]

We didn't skip on Lillard because we had a point guard, we passed on him because the player at one time predicted to go #1 (Thomas Robinson) dropped to #5. For those there to witness it they said Lillard had the best workout ever and made nearly every shot and they were prepared to draft him then Robinson drops and they chose him instead. Following year they were prepared to draft CJ McCollum at #7 and one time predicted #1 Ben McLemore drops. I wonder if they ever thought "Hmm I wonder why these other teams are passing on this guy?" Bad drafting has put this team in the position they're in and it's not like they've drafted guys that were good just not as good as others they could've drafted. We're talking non-NBA players selected versus All-Stars. This draft is huge, can't miss on these picks this year.

That's not entirely true.

We picked Thomas Robinson because Petrie was scared we'd lose Thompson in free agency and be left without a PF.

We picked McLemore because we liked him (for the record I remember watching one of his college games late in the tournament and wondered why anyone would consider him a lottery pick other than the fact that his form looked good). Apparently we even considered moving up to pick him.


I generally agree, though. The Kings have been pretty God-awful when it comes to catching a falling knife. The irony, of course, is that the Kings wanted to catch another falling knife (Kawhi) and didn't. Look how that turned out.

[Crimson King]

Look I don't really care. I'm just telling you to stop posting posts like the one you just replied to me. Whether I or others in this forum believe you who cares. You have the right to post what you want and people can agree or disagree with it. The thing that gets old is the type of post you just replied to me trying to validate yourself and justify "most trades won't occur, etc....blah blah blah. You're stating the obvious. At this point you're so far deep whether you're lying or not you almost have to continue on with this source thing or otherwise you might as well delete your handle and start fresh as someone new.

With all that being said...don't get defensive, continue to post basketball related thoughts, opinions or rumors. Contribute to the forum but stop justifying and trying to validate yourself. It derails thread whether you initiate or respond to someone else.

Worry about yourself . You do not need to tell me or anyone else what to say or not say etc.
You can stay out of it . Enough said .

A few questions you may or may not have answered already...I just don't remember

Does your source know you are posting this info on message boards and is that the reason they are giving it to you(to be posted for fans and whoever else to see)?

Do they tell you all this over the phone, in emails or in person?

I would add a couple of questions.

1. The source utterly maintained that Cousins value was 'MASSIVE' during all season and that people would be surprised if traded of this 'MASSIVE' value. Is there an explanation for what happened? Why was this measure so deviated?

2. Something like 200 players, every expiring and every logical combination were reported as a rumor from the source during all season, but if I remember correctly nothing not obvious was predicted. You said that 99.5% of rumors don't happen, but what percentage of credibility would you give to your source? 50%? 10%? 0.1%? Sorry, but the typical 'not saying this is going to happen, but...' from your posts is not serious in my humble opinion anymore.

Thank you.

[kalenclayton]

Breaking news: Sacramento Kings trade Willie Cauley-Stein for Evan Turner and and the 15th, 20th and 26th picks in the 2017 NBA draft, according to sources. The Trailblazers are happy to have unloaded the albatross contract of Turner while acquiring a young big who can help them win now while growing with the young team. The Kings may look to package some picks to move up, but they are said to be content with filling the roster with young talent. Kosta Koufos is said to be on the trade block.

Source?

Don't tell me you thought that was real lol

Dude... c'mon. Do not do this type of crap!

[VeganKingsFan]

3 way trade:
Lakers give: Luol Deng, Timofey Mozgov, Julius Randle, 2nd pick
Lakers receive: Paul George, Kosta Koufos
Pacers give: Paul George, 18th pick
Pacers Receive: Luol Deng, 2nd pick, Julius Randle
Kings give: Kosta Koufos
Kings receive: Timofey Mozgov, 18th pick

Lakers likely try to field a decent team since they have Paul George by trading D'Angelo Russell and others for vets. They would also be out from their bad contracts so they would be free agency players. Maybe the Kings can get a little more for taking Mozgov's salary and giving up Koufos (maybe a future pick), but I really like a few players in that 18 range.

[PetrieUnderstudy]

Doubting me as you do does not bother me . It is offensive when somebody speaks as if they know I don't have a source .
I don't claim to know anymore than anyone else . I don't care if I do or don't at all . If I felt I did though I would in most cases keep that to myself as I do not come here for nonsense .
I see posts were I think an opinion etc. makes no sense etc. but I keep all that to myself as to me it is childish to make statements that are in bad taste . I cannot claim to be perfect about that but I really try .

I will say things I post about rumors trade & draft are not made up . These are things I know for a fact . As all rumors , talks between teams etc. most all of what is talked about does not end up happening . That does not make me out to be a liar at all .
I have been proven correct a number of times . Most rumors I post won't happen as 99.5 % or higher of all rumors true rumors or not do not happen . Their is no way I or anyone else can be right all the time . Woj as everyone knows is the most reliable and accurate reporter about the NBA more than anyone . I don't claim to be anywhere's close to his level . I have 1 source he has tons of sources.
My recent reports of rumors are true . Yes some info I Provide is already known about or has been released however I have provided information many of times that has not been reported or was reported after I posted information here .

Look I don't really care. I'm just telling you to stop posting posts like the one you just replied to me. Whether I or others in this forum believe you who cares. You have the right to post what you want and people can agree or disagree with it. The thing that gets old is the type of post you just replied to me trying to validate yourself and justify "most trades won't occur, etc....blah blah blah. You're stating the obvious. At this point you're so far deep whether you're lying or not you almost have to continue on with this source thing or otherwise you might as well delete your handle and start fresh as someone new.

With all that being said...don't get defensive, continue to post basketball related thoughts, opinions or rumors. Contribute to the forum but stop justifying and trying to validate yourself. It derails thread whether you initiate or respond to someone else.

Worry about yourself . You do not need to tell me or anyone else what to say or not say etc.
You can stay out of it . Enough said .

I was going to take the high road but f it...panties in a bunch yet again. Now...enough said.

[Tzar]

3 way trade:
Lakers give: Luol Deng, Timofey Mozgov, Julius Randle, 2nd pick
Lakers receive: Paul George, Kosta Koufos
Pacers give: Paul George, 18th pick
Pacers Receive: Luol Deng, 2nd pick, Julius Randle
Kings give: Kosta Koufos
Kings receive: Timofey Mozgov, 18th pick

Lakers likely try to field a decent team since they have Paul George by trading D'Angelo Russell and others for vets. They would also be out from their bad contracts so they would be free agency players. Maybe the Kings can get a little more for taking Mozgov's salary and giving up Koufos (maybe a future pick), but I really like a few players in that 18 range.

Lakers say no. While dumping Deng and Moz is great, two factors lean against this ever happening. First, the Lakers can try to sign George in 2018. No need to give up an asset like the 2nd pick in a relatively strong draft to try and get him a season earlier. Also, if the Lakers do trade for him, and they don't make the playoffs (likely), George could still walk (even though he stated that he wants to play in LA, there are still no guarantees). Second, even if the Lakers do land George and free up cap space to land another "star," they are still not even close to sniffing the Warriors. George and another "star" (whoever that may be) would be, what, a 5-6 seed in west? No need to be in hurry in this current NBA milieu. The Warriors are just too dominate to try to "win now." Luke Walton even admitted this in a recent interview. "'I joke a lot. I said ‘if there's a time to be rebuilding, this is the time to do it.’ The Warriors don't look like they're going anywhere for a while. They're pretty darn good right now,' Walton said."

Lakers: hard hard pass.

[Tzar]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

[jazanetti]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

It's really big ?) I see more chances to get franchise in Tatum or Jackson. With 2 potentially great scorers Hield and Skal and all-around man between them we just need not a star but a solid defending PG (Ntilikina can still be available at #10).

[Tzar]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

It's really big ?) I see more chances to get franchise in Tatum or Jackson. With 2 potentially great scorers Hield and Skal and all-around man between them we just need not a star but a solid defending PG (Ntilikina can still be available at #10).

Perhaps I'm a little too high on DSJ, but I think he's the second best player in this draft. I think there's a good chance that he will end up being the best player in this draft. If you can get Tatum at 5 (Jackson is not falling out of the top three) and DSJ at 10. omg. that would probably, at least to me, be one of the greatest drafts for any NBA team in recent memory.

[jazanetti]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

It's really big ?) I see more chances to get franchise in Tatum or Jackson. With 2 potentially great scorers Hield and Skal and all-around man between them we just need not a star but a solid defending PG (Ntilikina can still be available at #10).

Perhaps I'm a little too high on DSJ, but I think he's the second best player in this draft. I think there's a good chance that he will end up being the best player in this draft. If you can get Tatum at 5 (Jackson is not falling out of the top three) and DSJ at 10. omg. that would probably, at least to me, be one of the greatest drafts for any NBA team in recent memory.

Yeah, Tatum+Smith is a dream.

[dckingsfan]

I agree we need to sit on our two picks and not trade up - we will get either Fox or DSJ at 5.

The rumor mill right now is hilarious!

[RIPskaterdude]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

Not sure Skal can play C yet, maybe in a few years.

[dckingsfan]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

Not sure Skal can play C yet, maybe in a few years.

I wouldn't mess with our FC. Just leave it as Cauley-Stein, Papagiannis, Koufos, Tolliver & Labissiere and see how they develop. I am not sold on Markkanen's defensive potential.

Bring in Fox or DSJ. Try to get the best wing you can get.

My two cents.

[VeganKingsFan]

You know what's funny? Most people on the Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers boards would love to trade down from their respective 1,2, and 3 picks for the Kings' 5 and 10. All this means to me is that Kings have two great assets in a really deep draft. Keep the picks. Try to get DJS (bam your franchise PG for the next 10-15yrs. smart people think he may be the best player in this draft) and Markkanen (pick and pop big). done and done. Kings have one of the quickest rebuilds ever. surround DSJ with shooters, give him space to eat up defenders with his blazing quickness in the pick and roll. Hield is a player. Skal is a player.

DSJ
Heild
?
Markkanen
Skal

This is an exciting/NBA league pass team.

Not sure Skal can play C yet, maybe in a few years.

I wouldn't mess with our FC. Just leave it as Cauley-Stein, Papagiannis, Koufos, Tolliver & Labissiere and see how they develop. I am not sold on Markkanen's defensive potential.

Bring in Fox or DSJ. Try to get the best wing you can get.

My two cents.

You obviously haven't gotten the news that Tolliver was waived. Koufos is likely on the trading block. We will have 3 frontcourt players, and if we're getting rid of our vets that have good leadership, there's no way they plan on replacing those vacancies with other vets. That means we are likely to draft at least one big man.

[kingjawn100]

Just to summarize and put a name to the some of these rumors...this is what's been reported...

CHAD FORD (ESPN): a GM told him "I'm convinced they'll (celtics) take Jackson No. 1."

(NBADRAFT.NET): APPARENTLY BOUGHT IN ON FORD REPORT ^ AND HAS JACKSON GOING #1 IN LATEST MOCK

JORDAN SCHULTZ (HUFFPOST): LAKERS LIKELY TO PASS ON LONZO (he's been reporting this for last couple weeks)

JORDAN SCHULTZ (HUFFPOST): KINGS TRYING TO TRADE 5+10 FOR 3 OR 4 (he walked that one back and said nothing seems imminent)

KEITH POMPEY (PHILLY ENQUIRER): KINGS SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING TRADING 5+10 FOR 3

JORDAN SCHULTZ (HUFFPOST): KNICKS VERY HIGH ON LUKE KENNARD

JOHN GAMBADORO (98.7 PHOENIX): JOSH JACKSON GOT PROMISE FROM MOST LIKELY THE LAKERS

MARK MEDINA (LA DAILY NEWS): DENNIS SMITH HAD 48 INCH VERTICAL IN LAKERS WORKOUT

FRANK ISOLA (NY DAILY NEWS): "THE KNICKS HAVE HAD A SCOUT IN EUROPE BABYSITTING FRANK NTILIKINA. AS OF NOW, HE'S THEIR MAN"

STEVE KYLER (BASKETBALL INSIDERS): WOLVES AND PISTONS ARE MOST LIKELY LOTTERY TEAMS TO TRADE THEIR PICK

ALSO SOMEONE REPORTED (i forget who) THAT ISSAC HAS A PROMISE FROM PHOENIX

to me i don't really trust any of this information. There's a reason some of the more reputable guys (Woj, Stein, Amick) haven't put their names on any of these rumors. A lot of reporters are just relaying info that teams want them to get out. Whetherr the info is true or false, the exposure only helps these reporters. Do you know how many people have now heard of Schultz who would have had no idea how he was a month ago?!

[blind prophet]

We didn't skip on Lillard because we had a point guard, we passed on him because the player at one time predicted to go #1 (Thomas Robinson) dropped to #5. For those there to witness it they said Lillard had the best workout ever and made nearly every shot and they were prepared to draft him then Robinson drops and they chose him instead. Following year they were prepared to draft CJ McCollum at #7 and one time predicted #1 Ben McLemore drops. I wonder if they ever thought "Hmm I wonder why these other teams are passing on this guy?" Bad drafting has put this team in the position they're in and it's not like they've drafted guys that were good just not as good as others they could've drafted. We're talking non-NBA players selected versus All-Stars. This draft is huge, can't miss on these picks this year.

That's not entirely true.

We picked Thomas Robinson because Petrie was scared we'd lose Thompson in free agency and be left without a PF.

We picked McLemore because we liked him (for the record I remember watching one of his college games late in the tournament and wondered why anyone would consider him a lottery pick other than the fact that his form looked good). Apparently we even considered moving up to pick him.


I generally agree, though. The Kings have been pretty God-awful when it comes to catching a falling knife. The irony, of course, is that the Kings wanted to catch another falling knife (Kawhi) and didn't. Look how that turned out.

Scared to lose Thompson?



That 5 year horrible contract?

Plenty of us groaned when he signed it.

Petrie wasn't scared we'd lose him.

I don't think we worked out Robinson either. I've always suspected the Maloofs told Geoff what to do in that draft.

[rpa]

Scared to lose Thompson?



That 5 year horrible contract?

Plenty of us groaned when he signed it.

Petrie wasn't scared we'd lose him.

I don't think we worked out Robinson either. I've always suspected the Maloofs told Geoff what to do in that draft.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/01/03/golden-state-warriors-joe-lacob-los-angeles-clippers-new-york-knicks-iman-shumpert-damian-lillard/1806185/

It's been ugly on that front for quite some time, largely because of the drastic decline in the spending habits of the Maloof family that owns the team. While there was a recent increase in the price tag of this team (from minimum payroll the last two seasons to a 2012-13 payroll that is at the salary cap), the penny-pinching precedent came with a cost during the summer. According to three people with knowledge of the situation who spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, part of the reason the Kings drafted forward Thomas Robinson fifth overall out of Kansas in June instead of Rookie of the Year frontrunner and Weber State point guard Damian Lillard (who went sixth to Portland) was because of internal doubt about ownership's ability or willingness to pony up for restricted free agent forward Jason Thompson.

There was strong support for Lillard among the team's front-office and scouting staff, but the unexpected chance to grab Robinson when he slid was seen as a safer option in case the Maloofs didn't pay the market price for Thompson and the team was left with Cousins and veteran forward Chuck Hayes on the frontline. The Kings were legitimately excited to take Robinson, who was seriously considered as high as No. 2 (Charlottte), but Thompson's situation was a factor.

[dckingsfan]

Not sure Skal can play C yet, maybe in a few years.

I wouldn't mess with our FC. Just leave it as Cauley-Stein, Papagiannis, Koufos, Tolliver & Labissiere and see how they develop. I am not sold on Markkanen's defensive potential.

Bring in Fox or DSJ. Try to get the best wing you can get.

My two cents.

You obviously haven't gotten the news that Tolliver was waived. Koufos is likely on the trading block. We will have 3 frontcourt players, and if we're getting rid of our vets that have good leadership, there's no way they plan on replacing those vacancies with other vets. That means we are likely to draft at least one big man.

Nope, I did see that Tolliver was waived, and didn't expect that either - thanks for that. If Koufos isn't on the block - which is likely - then that those 4 would be fine as well. Play the youngsters to see which pan out.

Assume they will waive or trade Afflalo by 6/23/17 as well.

Code: Select all

Player         2017-18
Koufos         $8,393,000
Temple         $8,000,000
Galloway       $5,430,000
Cauley-Stein   $3,704,160
Hield          $3,675,480
Papagiannis    $2,301,360
Richardson     $1,504,560
Labissiere     $1,312,611
   
Barnes         $6,400,625
Butler           $517,220
Afflalo        $1,500,000
Tolliver       $2,000,000
              $44,739,016


Code: Select all

PG                  Temple    
SG   Hield          Galoway       Richardson
SF         
PF   Labissiere     Koufos   
C    Cauley-Stein   Papagiannis   


So, I think that the biggest holes are at PG and SF. But given the rebuild - BPA. Still puzzled about Tolliver unless there is a large trade coming. Also, if the Kings FO had thought to have Toliver's guarantee be after the draft - that potentially could have been helpful.