Players' roles in upcoming season

[pillwenney]

I didn't. I do however think he is what he is, that he can be very successful at it, and it may be counterproductive to try to turn him into something else. The Tim Duncan comparison is a good one, and is the guy Spencer has patterned his game after. He is going to get position in the post by outmaneuvering his man. Sure he needs to get stronger, and that will help, once again my argument is that he needs to be as lean and athletic as possible. That will help him in the long run. I have already seen it, he looks much better at 240-245 than he does at 250-260. Spencer will be able to overpower smaller players eventually and outmaneuver the stronger ones.

Well Spencer was never around 250-260 to my knowledge.

Regardless, I'm simply saying that priority number 1 should be gaining the necessary strength to hold position down low, which he doesn't have right now. Athleticism is nice, but Spencer will never be a super-athlete, and because of his skills, he won't need to be. But he has to be able to hold position well enough to use those skills. It's not about overpowering or outmaneuvering anyone--it's about being big enough to hang with the big boys, and Spencer just isn't right now.

I think the validity of these listings is very questionable, I really don't have link to show, but I beg to differ at anyone saying Dampier has only 5 pounds on Duncan, besides I've read in a lot of places that Duncan's listed were generous so that he can fit with the big men in the league, because I think we can all agree that AI is not 6 feet, Ben Wallace is not 6'9 and Shaq has passed the 360 over his career, and is probably above 325, star listings aren't very reliable.

I've never read that before although it is true for some players. But Duncan is so nondescript that it seems like it would be pretty silly to do that here--whereas Shaq, Ben and AI are all at extremes for their positions. Regardless there are plenty of other guys at 260 who aren't stars and don't look any bigger than Duncan (Brad, for one).

But you also have to consider that Dampier looks bigger than he is. He's got this big upper body, but by comparison, his legs aren't particularly strong.



And I agree with basically everything CR said. Adding strength doesn't mean that Spencer won't be a finesse post player, but you have to be strong enough to actually play down there first.

[_SRV_]

Dampier defended Shaq in the post the best among current players , you're not gonna be able to do that when you're giving 80 lbs, he's definitely bigger than Duncan, and regrading the Duncan comments, there was a thread on the GB about KGs measurements, where Spurs mod said that Duncan measurements were generous that's one of the places I remember reading it you can look it up if you want.
And Duncan's legs don't look that much stronger than Dampier, let alone being big enough to compensate on the huge difference in upper body.
http://rawsportsblog.com/wp-content/upl ... duncan.jpg

[pillwenney]

Dampier defended Shaq in the post the best among current players , you're not gonna be able to do that when you're giving 80 lbs, he's definitely bigger than Duncan, and regrading the Duncan comments, there was a thread on the GB about KGs measurements, where Spurs mod said that Duncan measurements were generous that's one of the places I remember reading it you can look it up if you want.
And Duncan's legs don't look that much stronger than Dampier, let alone being big enough to compensate on the huge difference in upper body.
http://rawsportsblog.com/wp-content/upl ... duncan.jpg

We could probably go all day trying to find different pictures to support our arguments, and we can argue over how heavy players are forever and probably won't come to an agreement. So this is probably too subjective to argue about--especially when we're looking at legs, since half of them are covered by shorts usually. But I do know that supposedly KG is really 7' 1", but he chose to be listed as shorter to stay as more of a legit PF or something like that. And if Duncan isn't 260, then neither is Brad, or Bogut, or (insert center of choice). What I do know is that going purely off of a player's upper body is foolish--I mean that's skipping over a big percentage of where a player's weight may lie.

Regardless, I was always was under the impression that Damp typically struggled against Shaq. Regardless, it kind of depends on the time frame you're talking about--the last couple of years is pretty irrelevant, and if you're looking at the finals, well that's not very fair either, all things considered.

Anyway, the point is that regardless of how you score in the post, you have to be able to stay in the post first. Personally, for me, all I have to do is watch Spencer to realize that he needs to get stronger to really reach his full potential down low. Regardless of weight, you can look at Spencer and see how skinny his legs are. Regardless of exactly how big Duncan's legs are (and I still think they are bigger than you give them credit for) their strength makes it possible for him to hold position down low. CR's example of Maxiell and Howard in the playoffs and Barkley's analysis is a perfect example of how important this can be.

[SacKingZZZ]

There was an article, I can't remember when or where exactly but Brad said he bulked up and was at around 270 the season before last. The season he missed a lot of with foot problems BTW. He then got down to around 240 last year I remember hearing, and no surprise, he looked a lot better.

[KF10]

There was an article, I can't remember when or where exactly but Brad said he bulked up and was at around 270 the season before last. The season he missed a lot of with foot problems BTW. He then got down to around 240 last year I remember hearing, and no surprise, he looked a lot better.

Bulked up? I think he was just overweight IMO...Thus slimming down to 240...That is why we saw the improve Brad last year.

[pillwenney]

There was an article, I can't remember when or where exactly but Brad said he bulked up and was at around 270 the season before last. The season he missed a lot of with foot problems BTW. He then got down to around 240 last year I remember hearing, and no surprise, he looked a lot better.

The only reason I even brought up Brad was as a weight comparison--how effective he is is with or without his weight is rather irrelevant because we're talking about post play, which obviously doesn't pertain to Brad.

[_SRV_]

Dampier defended Shaq in the post the best among current players , you're not gonna be able to do that when you're giving 80 lbs, he's definitely bigger than Duncan, and regrading the Duncan comments, there was a thread on the GB about KGs measurements, where Spurs mod said that Duncan measurements were generous that's one of the places I remember reading it you can look it up if you want.
And Duncan's legs don't look that much stronger than Dampier, let alone being big enough to compensate on the huge difference in upper body.
http://rawsportsblog.com/wp-content/upl ... duncan.jpg

We could probably go all day trying to find different pictures to support our arguments, and we can argue over how heavy players are forever and probably won't come to an agreement. So this is probably too subjective to argue about--especially when we're looking at legs, since half of them are covered by shorts usually. But I do know that supposedly KG is really 7' 1", but he chose to be listed as shorter to stay as more of a legit PF or something like that. And if Duncan isn't 260, then neither is Brad, or Bogut, or (insert center of choice). What I do know is that going purely off of a player's upper body is foolish--I mean that's skipping over a big percentage of where a player's weight may lie.

Regardless, I was always was under the impression that Damp typically struggled against Shaq. Regardless, it kind of depends on the time frame you're talking about--the last couple of years is pretty irrelevant, and if you're looking at the finals, well that's not very fair either, all things considered.

Anyway, the point is that regardless of how you score in the post, you have to be able to stay in the post first. Personally, for me, all I have to do is watch Spencer to realize that he needs to get stronger to really reach his full potential down low. Regardless of weight, you can look at Spencer and see how skinny his legs are. Regardless of exactly how big Duncan's legs are (and I still think they are bigger than you give them credit for) their strength makes it possible for him to hold position down low. CR's example of Maxiell and Howard in the playoffs and Barkley's analysis is a perfect example of how important this can be.

Yes we can go all day looking at pictures that's why I didn't use them in the first place, neither are listings that are proven to be unreliable and are adjusted so that the player fit his category.
Personally when I look at Dampier Vs Duncan, I see very apparent difference in size, and I don't see this big supposed difference in legs' strength, so I don't think Spencer's issues with shooting % aare with his strength, I think it'll come to him eventually with experience, and playing against NBA big men, and improve the accuracy of his shot (both facing up or post related shots) which is off a lot of times.

[SacKingZZZ]

There was an article, I can't remember when or where exactly but Brad said he bulked up and was at around 270 the season before last. The season he missed a lot of with foot problems BTW. He then got down to around 240 last year I remember hearing, and no surprise, he looked a lot better.

The only reason I even brought up Brad was as a weight comparison--how effective he is is with or without his weight is rather irrelevant because we're talking about post play, which obviously doesn't pertain to Brad.

Very true. But I'm talking about athleticism which pertains to everyone. Spencer at 250-260 isn't going to be as mobile as a lighter Spencer no matter how you slice it. Now there are ways to add power without gaining too much muscle mass it's a slippery slope, and one that I predict could greatly effect Spencers game as it did Brads.

[pillwenney]

Yes we can go all day looking at pictures that's why I didn't use them in the first place, neither are listings that are proven to be unreliable and are adjusted so that the player fit his category.
Personally when I look at Dampier Vs Duncan, I see very apparent difference in size, and I don't see this big supposed difference in legs' strength, so I don't think Spencer's issues with shooting % aare with his strength, I think it'll come to him eventually with experience, and playing against NBA big men, and improve the accuracy of his shot (both facing up or post related shots) which is off a lot of times.

But that's just the thing--leg strength is so hard to kind of gauge--especially with shorts on. But the fact of the matter is, while they may not be 5 lbs apart, it's probably closer than you think. Dampier looks a lot bigger because of his upper body, but the size difference over all still isn't that big--and you have to look to the lower body to see that IMO. I mean that's just kind of process of elimination.

And don't get me wrong--I think Spencer's percentages are a combination of things. They have to be when they are this horrible. I agree that he needs to be less anxious down low and I also think that, in the summer league in particular he was drifting out to the perimeter. But I also think this has a lot to do with his strength. This is very typical--most 20-year-olds simply don't have the body to play with NBA big men. I think it's just foolish to say that when he's constantly being nudged out of position on his shots in the post that adding strength for him won't be an absolute necessity in the future.

[

Very true. But I'm talking about athleticism which pertains to everyone. Spencer at 250-260 isn't going to be as mobile as a lighter Spencer no matter how you slice it. Now there are ways to add power without gaining too much muscle mass it's a slippery slope, and one that I predict could greatly effect Spencers game as it did Brads.

But he doesn't need to be as mobile. Spencer's strength will never be his athleticism. His strength will be post play. He has so many moves that he can't use yet because he's not strong enough to hold his ground down low. Once he is strong enough, he'll be an infinitely more valuable player.

And the main difference that I see is that Brad didn't really have any kind of added benefit to the extra weight (especially since very little of the weight that he lost was muscle). With Spencer it will be the key to unlocking perhaps the most important part of his game. It's not about Spencer becoming a "bulky" player at all. I agree that that wouldn't be ideal. It's about him gaining enough strength to be a real center in this league. He's not there yet.

[_SRV_]

But that's just the thing--leg strength is so hard to kind of gauge--especially with shorts on. But the fact of the matter is, while they may not be 5 lbs apart, it's probably closer than you think. Dampier looks a lot bigger because of his upper body, but the size difference over all still isn't that big--and you have to look to the lower body to see that IMO. I mean that's just kind of process of elimination.

What you're not getting is that leg strength is single factor among others, and it's not even the strongest consideration, and while there aren't noticable differences, Dampier does look as stronger man and much more bruiser than Duncan, so even if legs are close their physical contest is no match in my eyes (feel free to disagree, but my mind is set on this one), and Duncan is getting his points simply bu experience, skill and accuracy.

And don't get me wrong--I think Spencer's percentages are a combination of things. They have to be when they are this horrible. I agree that he needs to be less anxious down low and I also think that, in the summer league in particular he was drifting out to the perimeter. But I also think this has a lot to do with his strength. This is very typical--most 20-year-olds simply don't have the body to play with NBA big men. I think it's just foolish to say that when he's constantly being nudged out of position on his shots in the post that adding strength for him won't be an absolute necessity in the future.

That's exactly why I'm still skeptical about him and not rushing to conclusion, Hawes is the best person to gauge what exactly is causing him to shoot in a D-leaguer %s, and if he was blowing us away with scoring in other area we could draw our own conclusions, but he's simply isn't and until we can limit his minuses to small spots concluding he should add wait is definitely premature, and wrong in my personal opnion.
The stronger you are, the better post player you are, but adding strength (which equals adding weight most of the time) has hurt so many players (mostly guards but still), I'd wait before jumping the gun on it.

[pillwenney]

What you're not getting is that leg strength is single factor among others, and it's not even the strongest consideration, and while there aren't noticable differences, Dampier does look as stronger man and much more bruiser than Duncan, so even if legs are close their physical contest is no match in my eyes (feel free to disagree, but my mind is set on this one), and Duncan is getting his points simply bu experience, skill and accuracy.

No, legs are the most important part of post position. Players don't usually push their arms--at least not at all literally. It comes from leg strength. That's what is most relevant here, and that's why Dampier's superior upper body strength just doesn't matter all that much. Duncan's main strength as a player isn't his over all strength, and Spencer's doesn't have to be either--I never said that. But it's common knowledge that you have to be strong enough to hold position down low before you can use your skill. I mean honestly, how far could we take this premise you're relying on. If Duncan had Mikki Moore's body, do you really think he would be as dominant in the post? Hell Chris Bosh is a perfect example. He's not strong enough to play in the post because he's not strong enough--but he's extremely quick for a PF and that gives him a devastating face-up game.

And of course, it's also important to note that Duncan also does often score with a face up game, especially against, stronger opponents. He has an awesome face-up game--something that we really haven't seen from Spencer yet.

That's exactly why I'm still skeptical about him and not rushing to conclusion, Hawes is the best person to gauge what exactly is causing him to shoot in a D-leaguer %s, and if he was blowing us away with scoring in other area we could draw our own conclusions, but he's simply isn't and until we can limit his minuses to small spots concluding he should add wait is definitely premature, and wrong in my personal opnion.

But the thing is that we have other big man to compare. No big man as weak as Spencer is successful in the post in the modern day NBA. Gasol is the closest example you'll find, but when he is against a particularly strong defender, he has a face-up game to go to. Spencer hasn't been able to get near his full post potential yet--not even close. To say that that is not at all about strength when he is constantly being pushed out of position and coming up short on all of his baby hooks and constantly taking shots at weird angles from farther away than any post player should be playing is to deny what is right in front of you IMO.

The stronger you are, the better post player you are, but adding strength (which equals adding weight most of the time) has hurt so many players (mostly guards but still), I'd wait before jumping the gun on it.

No, not "but still". That doesn't really work here. We are talking about post play. You said yourself that better strength means being a better post player (while that's not even quite always true, I'd say it is here for sure). This is what we're talking about--post play. It is Spencer's most valuable skill. His athleticism perhaps makes him a more bouncy defender and rebounder (but not necessarily a better one) and it helps him run the floor really well, but none of these things are as important as having a post player of Spencer's caliber. When you have the potential to have somebody that may be able to dominate down low like Spencer could, you would have to be completely foolish to pass that up. That would be like getting an oreo and just eating the cookies.

I'm personally not too worried about it because I know he'll add weight naturally as his body matures (as I've said time and time again, most guys his age don't have NBA-ready bodies--he's no exception). And if he just continues to put in a decent amount of work, he'll be in good shape to show his stuff.

[_SRV_]

No, legs are the most important part of post position. Players don't usually push their arms--at least not at all literally. It comes from leg strength. That's what is most relevant here, and that's why Dampier's superior upper body strength just doesn't matter all that much. Duncan's main strength as a player isn't his over all strength, and Spencer's doesn't have to be either--I never said that. But it's common knowledge that you have to be strong enough to hold position down low before you can use your skill. I mean honestly, how far could we take this premise you're relying on. If Duncan had Mikki Moore's body, do you really think he would be as dominant in the post? Hell Chris Bosh is a perfect example. He's not strong enough to play in the post because he's not strong enough--but he's extremely quick for a PF and that gives him a devastating face-up game.

No, sorry, but this is just a load of crap, players don't use their arms to position themselves, but they are pushed with their backs, to say that upper body strength doesn't matter is just absurd, I didn't play in the NBA, but I've been playing a center since the age of 14, your legs are as strong as your body mass is, and the heavier you the strongest legs you have.
And my point is that Duncan and Hawes are very close in their bodies, are you looking for a more successful post play than Duncan's?

And of course, it's also important to note that Duncan also does often score with a face up game, especially against, stronger opponents. He has an awesome face-up game--something that we really haven't seen from Spencer yet.

That's not really relevant, because we're talking about position, even when Duncan spins and faces up, or takes his man off the dribble, he usually it does from the block, especially in the POs.

No, not "but still". That doesn't really work here. We are talking about post play. You said yourself that better strength means being a better post player (while that's not even quite always true, I'd say it is here for sure). This is what we're talking about--post play. It is Spencer's most valuable skill. His athleticism perhaps makes him a more bouncy defender and rebounder (but not necessarily a better one) and it helps him run the floor really well, but none of these things are as important as having a post player of Spencer's caliber. When you have the potential to have somebody that may be able to dominate down low like Spencer could, you would have to be completely foolish to pass that up. That would be like getting an oreo and just eating the cookies.

Gaining weight will damage muscle memory while shooting, and of course hurt your speed, I don't know about you but for me this looks like setback.

[pillwenney]

No, sorry, but this is just a load of crap, players don't use their arms to position themselves, but they are pushed with their backs, to say that upper body strength doesn't matter is just absurd, I didn't play in the NBA, but I've been playing a center since the age of 14, your legs are as strong as your body mass is, and the heavier you the strongest legs you have.
And my point is that Duncan and Hawes are very close in their bodies, are you looking for a more successful post play than Duncan's?

Any my point is that they aren't really. Upper body strength isn't completely useless--and I certainly never said that. But it isn't as important with regards to holding position. The strength of most everything that somebody does (if they do it correctly) comes from their legs naturally because leg muscles are much stronger than upper body muscles.

And you seem to be implying that leg strength is always proportional to size, when this just isn't true. If you focus on a certain part of your body, it's not like it's not going to improve because the rest of your body isn't getting stronger.

Duncan and Spencer may have similar body types (naturally speaking) but Duncan is much stronger right now--Duncan was once skinny too. And the difference between then and now isn't huge but it's visible, and I'm not talking about Spencer adding a ton of weight.

That's not really relevant, because we're talking about position, even when Duncan spins and faces up, or takes his man off the dribble, he usually it does from the block, especially in the POs.

It's very relevant because facing up and posting up are very different things. Strength is much less important for a face-up game (again, look at a Bosh or Gasol), and if I thought Spencer had a legitimate face-up game, I would be more open to other options here, but I've never really seen any kind of face-up game from him.

[/quote]Gaining weight will damage muscle memory while shooting, and of course hurt your speed, I don't know about you but for me this looks like setback.[/quote]

First off saying that it "will" as if it's a definite is a little hasty (not everyone is Mike Bibby). Secondly, I'm talking more about leg strength, which, while important to shooting, won't have quite as big of an effect here as it would in other ways.

Regardless, even if it does both of those things (and this is of course assuming that Spencer, at his young age just can't ever find a way to adjust)--what a tragedy. Seriously, having a center that can shoot and run the floor affectively is nice, but it's also kind of a luxury more than anything. I'm not saying that a setback here isn't possible, but I am saying that it would be worth it to have a legitimate post option. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have (insert almost any legitimate low post option) over Brad Miller.

[SacKingZZZ]

Physical post play isn't just about physicality, it's about attitude as well. I just think Spencer isn't the type to turn into some kind of physical post player. Now being able to hold position is one thing., sure, that would be great. I just think that Spencer should keep his weight down to instead maximize his stamina and mobility.

[pillwenney]

Physical post play isn't just about physicality, it's about attitude as well. I just think Spencer isn't the type to turn into some kind of physical post player. Now being able to hold position is one thing., sure, that would be great. I just think that Spencer should keep his weight down to instead maximize his stamina and mobility.

Well I'm not talking about particularly physical post play--I'm talking about regular post play.

I just think that being able to hold position should be priority number 1. Extra mobility is nice. Being able to use one's many skills in the post is essential.

[_SRV_]

And you seem to be implying that leg strength is always proportional to size, when this just isn't true. If you focus on a certain part of your body, it's not like it's not going to improve because the rest of your body isn't getting stronger.

Legs are what holds your body, If you get lighter they will eventually get weaker, and if you get heavier, they'll adjust and get stronger, there is no amount of gym work that will get close to carrying the body, walking, running and jumping, so yes, they are proportional to size.

Duncan and Spencer may have similar body types (naturally speaking) but Duncan is much stronger right now--Duncan was once skinny too. And the difference between then and now isn't huge but it's visible, and I'm not talking about Spencer adding a ton of weight.

I really don't think Spencer will stay in this body, he will evolve just like any other player who came to this league or any other person for that matter, but the change will be small, he won't become a bruiser, and won't get much stronger, I'm saying the problems with his percentages aren't from his size, Duncan dominated college and came out ready with the same physique, Spencer had issues against summer league players.

It's very relevant because facing up and posting up are very different things. Strength is much less important for a face-up game (again, look at a Bosh or Gasol), and if I thought Spencer had a legitimate face-up game, I would be more open to other options here, but I've never really seen any kind of face-up game from him.

I'm sorry, but are we comparing Chris Bosh face up game to Duncan's face up game? Chris Bosh mostly starts on the perimeter and drives or pulls up for mid range jumpers, Duncan does that much less than Bosh, Duncan's main face up game is spinning on the block close to the basket after the post, and starting from there or getting the ball 10 feet at most from the basket, in both cases he needs to be already positioned down low.

[/quote]
First off saying that it "will" as if it's a definite is a little hasty (not everyone is Mike Bibby). Secondly, I'm talking more about leg strength, which, while important to shooting, won't have quite as big of an effect here as it would in other ways.
[/quote]
Kirk Heinrich? Why don't you give example for a player who had a good shot and bulked up, but didn't slow down?
And regardless, it would still hurt the mobility.

[sackings916]

Hawes' body definitely needs work. However it is possible he can stay at the same weight while improving his strength and conditioning. If he eats at maintenance calories while on a high weight/low rep training his muscle fibers will get more dense but he wont add new muscle. Or he can put on lean mass then shed body fat but still stay at the same weight he is now. But either way IMO he is nowhere near where he needs to be physically. But what 20 y/o in the NBA is? He already has the skills if he had the body he'd be an all star already.

[pillwenney]

Legs are what holds your body, If you get lighter they will eventually get weaker, and if you get heavier, they'll adjust and get stronger, there is no amount of gym work that will get close to carrying the body, walking, running and jumping, so yes, they are proportional to size.

So then what's the point of working one's legs out? Why don't athletes just work on their upper bodies and let their legs adjust?

I really don't think Spencer will stay in this body, he will evolve just like any other player who came to this league or any other person for that matter, but the change will be small, he won't become a bruiser, and won't get much stronger, I'm saying the problems with his percentages aren't from his size, Duncan dominated college and came out ready with the same physique, Spencer had issues against summer league players.

He will get considerably stronger. Almost every fully grown player does in comparison to where they were at age 20. Duncan came into the league at the age Spencer will be next year (having turned 21 the previous April), so it really wasn't the same. I never said that Spencer would become a bruiser, and I don't expect him to. I expect him to gain adequate weight so that he is able to hold position down low.

I'm sorry, but are we comparing Chris Bosh face up game to Duncan's face up game? Chris Bosh mostly starts on the perimeter and drives or pulls up for mid range jumpers, Duncan does that much less than Bosh, Duncan's main face up game is spinning on the block close to the basket after the post, and starting from there or getting the ball 10 feet at most from the basket, in both cases he needs to be already positioned down low.

No, Bosh is usually around 15 feet. And they use the same principle--quickness. Duncan is maybe a little closer, but it's not a huge difference, and it works the same way. In both cases it's a matter of using their quickness to get by their defender--much more so than strength. And Duncan's main face up game is based off of the threat of his mid-range bank shot--bigs have to step out on that, and Duncan makes them pay.

Kirk Heinrich? Why don't you give example for a player who had a good shot and bulked up, but didn't slow down?
And regardless, it would still hurt the mobility.

Duncan adding weight naturally as he got older didn't seem to hurt his shot. Josh Smith actually seems to have a jumper now after adding some bulk. Chris Bosh has added some weight throughout his career and his shot seemed to only improve. There have been lots of guys who have come into the league, added around 15 lbs naturally and haven't had it really affect their shots, and that's all I'm talking about, really. It would be one thing if Spencer was a shooting specialist, but that's not his game, and it shouldn't be. It's a little tough to find examples because I can't seem to find players' weight when they were in college, but the point is that most players add some bulk when they first enter the league and/or are around Spencer's age, and most of them don't lose their jumpers.

[_SRV_]

So then what's the point of working one's legs out? Why don't athletes just work on their upper bodies and let their legs adjust?

You work out to strengthen your legs, but I'm saying that this work out doesn't come close to having 30-40 lbs more on your body while running and jumping which is daily workout you live with, a 200 lbs guy who works out on his legs has stronger legs than 200 lbs who doesn't, but a 240 lbs guy has stronger legs than the 200 lbs, it's really very simple, go to your nearest gym, and watch guys work out and you will see that people can carry weight proportional to their body weight, some do 120% some do 80%, but the bias point is their body mass.

He will get considerably stronger. Almost every fully grown player does in comparison to where they were at age 20. Duncan came into the league at the age Spencer will be next year (having turned 21 the previous April), so it really wasn't the same. I never said that Spencer would become a bruiser, and I don't expect him to. I expect him to gain adequate weight so that he is able to hold position down low.

I know he will change, I don't know how much he will change, and if you claim you do, quite honestly you're talking out of your ass, Duncan has a similar build, and we saw what change he did and it's not that big of a change, that's one reference model, another one for example, is a guy like LeBron James who just exploded size wise in is 1st year.
And you keep drifting away from the main point, Duncan was a great player in college also, Hawes is having trouble now against summer league competition, you're claiming his missing shots in the post because he's not positioned where he's supposed to, but he's also missing mid range shots, Duncan and Gasol, had thin bodies when they came to the league but performed much better than him, and Duncan dominated college before coming to the league, so I disagree with the notion that strength is his issue.

No, Bosh is usually around 15 feet. And they use the same principle--quickness. Duncan is maybe a little closer, but it's not a huge difference, and it works the same way. In both cases it's a matter of using their quickness to get by their defender--much more so than strength. And Duncan's main face up game is based off of the threat of his mid-range bank shot--bigs have to step out on that, and Duncan makes them pay.

I disagree, Bosh takes his to the perimeter and leaves him there, Duncan goes around his man and usually finishes with his away arm, and in many times takes a contact, they really aren't close.

Duncan adding weight naturally as he got older didn't seem to hurt his shot. Josh Smith actually seems to have a jumper now after adding some bulk. Chris Bosh has added some weight throughout his career and his shot seemed to only improve. There have been lots of guys who have come into the league, added around 15 lbs naturally and haven't had it really affect their shots, and that's all I'm talking about, really. It would be one thing if Spencer was a shooting specialist, but that's not his game, and it shouldn't be. It's a little tough to find examples because I can't seem to find players' weight when they were in college, but the point is that most players add some bulk when they first enter the league and/or are around Spencer's age, and most of them don't lose their jumpers.

Duncan and Bosh added their qeight slowly along the season with time to adjust themselves, they didn't turn into Michelin boys over short period, and notice that the 2 guys you brought are still thin PFs after adding the weight.

[pillwenney]

You work out to strengthen your legs, but I'm saying that this work out doesn't come close to having 30-40 lbs more on your body while running and jumping which is daily workout you live with, a 200 lbs guy who works out on his legs has stronger legs than 200 lbs who doesn't, but a 240 lbs guy has stronger legs than the 200 lbs, it's really very simple, go to your nearest gym, and watch guys work out and you will see that people can carry weight proportional to their body weight, some do 120% some do 80%, but the bias point is their body mass.

Sure it can't stray too far away, but that still leaves some definite room for a difference. I'm just saying that I think that Duncan, for instance, has stronger legs than his upper body might indicate--and they are especially strong in comparison to Spencer.

I know he will change, I don't know how much he will change, and if you claim you do, quite honestly you're talking out of your ass, Duncan has a similar build, and we saw what change he did and it's not that big of a change, that's one reference model, another one for example, is a guy like LeBron James who just exploded size wise in is 1st year.
And you keep drifting away from the main point, Duncan was a great player in college also, Hawes is having trouble now against summer league competition, you're claiming his missing shots in the post because he's not positioned where he's supposed to, but he's also missing mid range shots, Duncan and Gasol, had thin bodies when they came to the league but performed much better than him, and Duncan dominated college before coming to the league, so I disagree with the notion that strength is his issue.

Never claimed I did know anything exact. And I never claimed that Spencer is going to get massively stronger.

Summer league>college in terms of size and strength. It's not by a whole lot, but there is a difference just by virtue of the age difference. And like I said, looking just at his shooting percentage, poor shot selection certainly is an issue, but when you look at his struggles to score in the post, it's a different story. Spencer looked pretty good in college, when healthy, as well (just in his freshman year). But it's not the same. There have been a ton of guys who were dominant in college and struggled in the summer league.
And with Gasol, it's certainly a different story because of the face-up games. Gasol had a great one coming into the league. Spencer doesn't. And like I said before, Duncan was older when he came into the league than Spencer was.

I disagree, Bosh takes his to the perimeter and leaves him there, Duncan goes around his man and usually finishes with his away arm, and in many times takes a contact, they really aren't close.

There is a difference of a few feet, but the principle is still the same of it being about quickness. I'm just saying that it's much easier to get position for a close-in face up game than it is to get and hold post position. And it most certainly is.

Duncan and Bosh added their qeight slowly along the season with time to adjust themselves, they didn't turn into Michelin boys over short period, and notice that the 2 guys you brought are still thin PFs after adding the weight.

When did I say Spencer would do that? That's the opposite of what I've been saying the whole time. Of course it's gradual. But at the same time, if you go off of listings, Bosh has added 20 lbs since entering the league, and Gasol has added 30.