Pre-Season: Portland @ Sacramento

[ICMTM]

As far as our bigs go Hawes doesn't have the frame for the post on a nightly basis. He'll go to town on guys that are close to his size, but his defense is questionable at best. I'm questioning his drive as well. When I went to the OKC/Kings game Hawes walked back on D A LOT giving up so many easy interior baskets.

I have to officially take myself off the Spencer Hawes bandwagon. Thompson I think it's obvious he hasn't played in the post a lot at earlier stages in his career. He doesn't seem too comfortable with his back to the basket or receiving the ball down low. I think if he can add that piece to his game he will be nasty for years. He's got freakish foot speed for a guy his size. I want to see him with the attitude that I'll rise and slam on you at will. I think he has that kind of athleticism.

[RIPskaterdude]

As far as our bigs go Hawes doesn't have the frame for the post on a nightly basis. He'll go to town on guys that are close to his size, but his defense is questionable at best. I'm questioning his drive as well. When I went to the OKC/Kings game Hawes walked back on D A LOT giving up so many easy interior baskets.

I have to officially take myself off the Spencer Hawes bandwagon. Thompson I think it's obvious he hasn't played in the post a lot at earlier stages in his career. He doesn't seem too comfortable with his back to the basket or receiving the ball down low. I think if he can add that piece to his game he will be nasty for years. He's got freakish foot speed for a guy his size. I want to see him with the attitude that I'll rise and slam on you at will. I think he has that kind of athleticism.

Welcome to the club I was against Hawes being drafted in the first place and still don't see any potential from the softest C in the league.

[ICMTM]

I still see good things, but he is a guy that doesn't have the skillset to play half-assed. Chris Webber used to take games off, but he was still productive because athletically he's a freak of nature. Hawes isn't that guy, and if he's not going to hustle then he's not going to be a good NBA player.

[cdt3]

Shareef sucked in the post, he was a jump shooting big guy. He was no better than Brad Miller becaue he did not rebound as well. I used their stats from the preseason games for their 7 games and figured adjusted them for 40 minutes. Using last years numbers Mikki Moore put up in 30 min a game last year 9 points/6 rebounds/ .5 blocks per game. I am saying he plays like a Small forward (Peja's numbers from last year 17/5/.2blocks per game. Mikki is Peja SOFT my friend.) What a stud! Did you not see how the Portland big guys lick their chops facing Moore? How many dunks will Kobe, Wade, Garnett, every NBA guard and forwrds attacking the rim on Mikki? Shelden came off the bench in the first preason game against Portland and stopped the layup drill. Until Mikki-Hawes combo got them back in trouble in that game and Oden and Aldridge got on fire. Mikki Moore is no NBA starter unless at SF or SG that's all his stats justify. This team has enough offense it needs defense. Read Charley Rosen's Fox Kings preview about agreement on Mikki's softness. The only reason we didn't finish .500 last year because the interior d sucked. Miller had 14/10/1blk in 34 min and is a solid post defender as long as he is not the #1 big guy. Which was why Artest and Miller didn't work together they were both compliment guys. Spencer last year averaged 5/3/.5blk in 13 min. With starter minutes (36ish) he would be close to 15/10/1.5blk. Shelden last year were 4/3/.3 in 12 min so with 36 minutes a game he would average 12/10/1. Moore per 36 from last year 11/7/.6blk. Mikki Moore is by far the least productive, worst defending PF or C in the league and even on this team. Thompson production in the preseason was close to Hawes with less blocks. Shelden did average 15/10/1 in Summer league in 36 min so he can play big minutes if he is asked. If you need any more lessons about the Kings, I am available for classes. I have listened to or watched at least 20 games a year since the Kings moved to Sacramento in 1985. They should combine Hawes and Shelden minutes together (go with the hot hand that day) as the C and play with Brad as PF and bring Mikki and Thompson off the bench.

[Cruel_Ruin]

As far as our bigs go Hawes doesn't have the frame for the post on a nightly basis. He'll go to town on guys that are close to his size, but his defense is questionable at best. I'm questioning his drive as well. When I went to the OKC/Kings game Hawes walked back on D A LOT giving up so many easy interior baskets.

I have to officially take myself off the Spencer Hawes bandwagon. Thompson I think it's obvious he hasn't played in the post a lot at earlier stages in his career. He doesn't seem too comfortable with his back to the basket or receiving the ball down low. I think if he can add that piece to his game he will be nasty for years. He's got freakish foot speed for a guy his size. I want to see him with the attitude that I'll rise and slam on you at will. I think he has that kind of athleticism.

After two bad games against Oden? Seriously?

It's obvious that Spencer has to get better defensively. I'd attribute his bad defense more to being really young over anything else, not a lack of effort. He's been more and more active defensively as the preseason has gone along. Not necessarily more effective, just more active. When he gets more experience and more coaching on how to use his size and length effectively. What really took him out last night was foul trouble. The strength mismatch against Oden was obvious. How about let's wait until he matures a bit before jumping off the bandwagon? Not many 20 year olds play defense like veterens.

And what's with the double-standard with Thompson and Hawes? Thompson grew up playing as a guard, so therefore he become more comfortable with his back to the basket game at age 22, but Hawes who also grew up playing as a guard can't become more comfortable with his postgame at age 20? Hawes doesn't have the frame to be a good post player, but Thompson does?

[pillwenney]

Shareef sucked in the post, he was a jump shooting big guy. He was no better than Brad Miller becaue he did not rebound as well. I used their stats from the preseason games for their 7 games and figured adjusted them for 40 minutes. Using last years numbers Mikki Moore put up in 30 min a game last year 9 points/6 rebounds/ .5 blocks per game. I am saying he plays like a Small forward (Peja's numbers from last year 17/5/.2blocks per game. Mikki is Peja SOFT my friend.) What a stud! Did you not see how the Portland big guys lick their chops facing Moore? How many dunks will Kobe, Wade, Garnett, every NBA guard and forwrds attacking the rim on Mikki? Shelden came off the bench in the first preason game against Portland and stopped the layup drill. Until Mikki-Hawes combo got them back in trouble in that game and Oden and Aldridge got on fire. Mikki Moore is no NBA starter unless at SF or SG that's all his stats justify. This team has enough offense it needs defense. Read Charley Rosen's Fox Kings preview about agreement on Mikki's softness. The only reason we didn't finish .500 last year because the interior d sucked. Miller had 14/10/1blk in 34 min and is a solid post defender as long as he is not the #1 big guy. Which was why Artest and Miller didn't work together they were both compliment guys. Spencer last year averaged 5/3/.5blk in 13 min. With starter minutes (36ish) he would be close to 15/10/1.5blk. Shelden last year were 4/3/.3 in 12 min so with 36 minutes a game he would average 12/10/1. Moore per 36 from last year 11/7/.6blk. Mikki Moore is by far the least productive, worst defending PF or C in the league and even on this team. Thompson production in the preseason was close to Hawes with less blocks. Shelden did average 15/10/1 in Summer league in 36 min so he can play big minutes if he is asked.

That is just factually incorrect. SAR's biggest strength was always his post game, and largely so because of his skill.

And you simply can not extrapolate stats the way you have and hope to have a viable argument. It just doesn't work--especially with preseason games. That's just ridiculous. Your argument about Shelden against Portland holds some weight, but none of the extrapolated stats you've used do. The fact of the matter is that we don't really know what a lot of our young guys would do if given consistent starter's minutes.

If you need any more lessons about the Kings, I am available for classes. I have listened to or watched at least 20 games a year since the Kings moved to Sacramento in 1985.

[cdt3]

A little more info on the Kings Bigs, in addition to the Kings being outrebounded in most games, they also only have averaged 15 assists a game in the preseason. Last year they averaged 19. The Webber-Vlade Kings averaged 26 assist a game. The Lakers last year averaged 25. Our team so far is a bad rebounding, low assist and no defensive team, so far. Not going to add up to a lot of wins unless there is a change in the starting lineup with Hawes or Shelden and Miller.

By the way SG Kevin Durant had 20/5/1blk. We found Mikki's spot (Mikki averaged 9/6/.5blocks last year), the guy is a shooting guard or small forward in the NBA. His rebounding numbers are equal to Durant/Peja/Jason Kidd/any generic guard. Kenny Thomas at 6'7" (Kenny's career numbers 10/7/.5blk in 30min) is no better a big guy than 7'0" Mikki Moore (9/6.4/.8blk in 30min per game in his career). Miller is a career 12/8/.8 per 30min, Webber was a career 20/10/1.5 in 37min. Hawes will up 15/10/1.5blk this year if they stick with him.

[SacKingZZZ]

There is no question. You watch this team play and Spencer has the most potential out of any of the "bigs" on our team. He needs to be used properly. I just wish they'd let Spencer go back at Oden. It's like they were afraid to test him. Yet, when they did he picked up a couple of quick fouls.

Jason could turn into something but just watching him, even this early, he looks to be exactly what he was labled as: average. Still, he could turn into a very solid player and if he learns to harness his speed and the talent he does have he could be a very solid NBA player.

[_SRV_]

A little more info on the Kings Bigs, in addition to the Kings being outrebounded in most games, they also only have averaged 15 assists a game in the preseason. Last year they averaged 19. The Webber-Vlade Kings averaged 26 assist a game. The Lakers last year averaged 25. Our team so far is a bad rebounding, low assist and no defensive team, so far. Not going to add up to a lot of wins unless there is a change in the starting lineup with Hawes or Shelden and Miller.

By the way SG Kevin Durant had 20/5/1blk. We found Mikki's spot (Mikki averaged 9/6/.5blocks last year), the guy is a shooting guard or small forward in the NBA. His rebounding numbers are equal to Durant/Peja/Jason Kidd/any generic guard. Kenny Thomas at 6'7" (Kenny's career numbers 10/7/.5blk in 30min) is no better a big guy than 7'0" Mikki Moore (9/6.4/.8blk in 30min per game in his career). Miller is a career 12/8/.8 per 30min, Webber was a career 20/10/1.5 in 37min. Hawes will up 15/10/1.5blk this year if they stick with him.

Mikki Moore sucks, he was a terrible mistake, a terrible terrible mistake, why do use him as reference to top draft picks, SGs/SFs? He is what he is a 3rd string PF, who found himself battling Kenny freaking Thomas and Shelden heavy Williams for the starting spot.

[pillwenney]

A little more info on the Kings Bigs, in addition to the Kings being outrebounded in most games, they also only have averaged 15 assists a game in the preseason. Last year they averaged 19. The Webber-Vlade Kings averaged 26 assist a game. The Lakers last year averaged 25. Our team so far is a bad rebounding, low assist and no defensive team, so far. Not going to add up to a lot of wins unless there is a change in the starting lineup with Hawes or Shelden and Miller.

By the way SG Kevin Durant had 20/5/1blk. We found Mikki's spot (Mikki averaged 9/6/.5blocks last year), the guy is a shooting guard or small forward in the NBA. His rebounding numbers are equal to Durant/Peja/Jason Kidd/any generic guard. Kenny Thomas at 6'7" (Kenny's career numbers 10/7/.5blk in 30min) is no better a big guy than 7'0" Mikki Moore (9/6.4/.8blk in 30min per game in his career). Miller is a career 12/8/.8 per 30min, Webber was a career 20/10/1.5 in 37min. Hawes will up 15/10/1.5blk this year if they stick with him.

Mikki Moore sucks, he was a terrible mistake, a terrible terrible mistake, why do use him as reference to top draft picks, SGs/SFs? He is what he is a 3rd string PF, who found himself battling Kenny freaking Thomas and Shelden heavy Williams for the starting spot.

Let's not go crazy here. Mikki isn't a special player but he did help us out last year in many respects--most notably that he's a far better finisher from the PF or center spot than anyone we've had since Keon Clark or a pre-injury Webber, and that was helpful to our team last year. None of our other bigs would have been nearly as effective in those situations offensively.

I'm not saying others shouldn't be getting minutes over him right now for whatever reason, but he at least scores with the efficiency of a big, and isn't a really bad defender in the right matchup. His rebounding is certainly week, but Spencer hasn't proven to be much better. As far as pure team success there are debatable ups and downs for everybody.

[ICMTM]

As far as our bigs go Hawes doesn't have the frame for the post on a nightly basis. He'll go to town on guys that are close to his size, but his defense is questionable at best. I'm questioning his drive as well. When I went to the OKC/Kings game Hawes walked back on D A LOT giving up so many easy interior baskets.

I have to officially take myself off the Spencer Hawes bandwagon. Thompson I think it's obvious he hasn't played in the post a lot at earlier stages in his career. He doesn't seem too comfortable with his back to the basket or receiving the ball down low. I think if he can add that piece to his game he will be nasty for years. He's got freakish foot speed for a guy his size. I want to see him with the attitude that I'll rise and slam on you at will. I think he has that kind of athleticism.

After two bad games against Oden? Seriously?

It's obvious that Spencer has to get better defensively. I'd attribute his bad defense more to being really young over anything else, not a lack of effort. He's been more and more active defensively as the preseason has gone along. Not necessarily more effective, just more active. When he gets more experience and more coaching on how to use his size and length effectively. What really took him out last night was foul trouble. The strength mismatch against Oden was obvious. How about let's wait until he matures a bit before jumping off the bandwagon? Not many 20 year olds play defense like veterens.

And what's with the double-standard with Thompson and Hawes? Thompson grew up playing as a guard, so therefore he become more comfortable with his back to the basket game at age 22, but Hawes who also grew up playing as a guard can't become more comfortable with his postgame at age 20? Hawes doesn't have the frame to be a good post player, but Thompson does?

I'm basing my opinion mostly in the game against OKC, where he actually played well in the post against Joe Smith, but do we have to exclude good centers to make an opinion on Hawes?

[_SRV_]

Let's not go crazy here. Mikki isn't a special player but he did help us out last year in many respects--most notably that he's a far better finisher from the PF or center spot than anyone we've had since Keon Clark or a pre-injury Webber, and that was helpful to our team last year. None of our other bigs would have been nearly as effective in those situations offensively.

I'm not saying others shouldn't be getting minutes over him right now for whatever reason, but he at least scores with the efficiency of a big, and isn't a really bad defender in the right matchup. His rebounding is certainly week, but Spencer hasn't proven to be much better. As far as pure team success there are debatable ups and downs for everybody.

Saying Mikki Moore is a terrible mistake is crazy? Take off your rose coloured glasses and face the reality, the silver lining of being a good finisher doesn't shine on the very Grey cloud that is Mikki Moore starting for our beloved team.
No one is debating who should start, people before me presented the case of how useless it's to start Mikki, I can't insert any more logic to that argument other than shaking my head at the moronic notion of suggesting we are actually gaining from playing him ahead of Hawes/Williams/Thompson, I'm saying Mikki shouldn't have been here is the 1st place, he is the journey man who made it from partially guaranteed/minimum vet contracts along all of his career and was brought to Sacramento as the starting PF for the MLE, that is the terrible mistake that is Mikki Moore.

[pillwenney]

Let's not go crazy here. Mikki isn't a special player but he did help us out last year in many respects--most notably that he's a far better finisher from the PF or center spot than anyone we've had since Keon Clark or a pre-injury Webber, and that was helpful to our team last year. None of our other bigs would have been nearly as effective in those situations offensively.

I'm not saying others shouldn't be getting minutes over him right now for whatever reason, but he at least scores with the efficiency of a big, and isn't a really bad defender in the right matchup. His rebounding is certainly week, but Spencer hasn't proven to be much better. As far as pure team success there are debatable ups and downs for everybody.

Saying Mikki Moore is a terrible mistake is crazy? Take off your rose coloured glasses and face the reality, the silver lining of being a good finisher doesn't shine on the very Grey cloud that is Mikki Moore starting for our beloved team.
No one is debating who should start, people before me presented the case of how useless it's to start Mikki, I can't insert any more logic to that argument other than shaking my head at the moronic notion of suggesting we are actually gaining from playing him ahead of Hawes/Williams/Thompson, I'm saying Mikki shouldn't have been here is the 1st place, he is the journey man who made it from partially guaranteed/minimum vet contracts along all of his career and was brought to Sacramento as the starting PF for the MLE, that is the terrible mistake that is Mikki Moore.

It would have been a terrible mistake if he weren't useful last year and if his contract were immovable now--neither of which are true.

If you want to complain about him starting, that's one thing, but that's a separate issue.

[_SRV_]

Movable or not we overpaid for an irrelevant player, the way I see it we spent 18 millions on something very close to nothing, that's a terrible mistake in my eyes.

[ICMTM]

Mikki Moore has been a good addition to the Kings and we are not paying him that much to compare him with other PF's stat wise. He isn't the best PF, but we:

a. Don't have a better option

b. For his salary you won't find anything better

Is Mikki Moore the NBA's prototype of what you want out of a PF...heck no. He is a guy who can fill a void until we are able to move into a different direction.

[_SRV_]

The fact you won't find anything better doesn't justify bringing him, it's the question whether he brings improvements necessary, I didn't see it last season, Kenny Thomas might suck but but so does Mikki Moore and the upgrade isn't all that big, he could've been replaced with KT, and extra minutes for Hawes and other fillers that came along (Sheldon and Justin Williams).
And what void exactly does Moore fill? catching half of the passes thrown at him for mid range jumpers and dunks while providing little defense and no rebounding? a lot of guys can do that, hell, Hawes could do that last year.
If he was brought for what he's worth, fine, but no, he was brought for a lot more.

[pillwenney]

Movable or not we overpaid for an irrelevant player, the way I see it we spent 18 millions on something very close to nothing, that's a terrible mistake in my eyes.

Is it your money? No. Did it affect our ability to make any important moves in free agency? No. So where is this "terrible mistake"?

Also, it's probably going to be closer to 14mil considering that I doubt we keep him around right now. And he's not irrelevant. He was very relevant for us last year and may continue to be on the court this year. And he'll always been a good locker room vet.

I personally don't think we need him any more, but a "terrible mistake" would be if we couldn't trade him. We can easily trade him right now. A "terrible mistake" is only terrible if it has some kind of lasting negative affect on the team. The Moore signing will have no such affect. At all.

[cdt3]

I respect Mikki Moore, he is the Forward equivalent of Bobby Jackson. All offense, not great def. Put him in for a few minutes against the scrubs and score a lot of point. I think using a lot of minutes from him takes away from the young guys that could develop. I am just stating a fact, this team does no better or worse with no Mikki Moore. If we are winning and we need a veteran help it may be a different story. Mikki is just not and NBA starter. There are just too many good NBA PF and C and guards attack the basket with the Moore-Miller combo. Miller should never be the number #1 option as a big on a team, but Brad is better than Mikki. Even though he is a finisher no NBA Forward or Center is afraid of getting dunked on by Mikki or Brad. Hawes and has very good post moves and is a good jump shooter and plays solid defense. He showed he can score 15/10/1.5blks in Summer League. Mikki best college average was 12/7 a game. Miller's best college year was 17/9. So your college stats are a pretty good indicator to the type of NBAer you will be if you get the minutes. Hawes best year was 15/10. And Shelden's was 21/11/4 blocks. Miller showed up 10 lbs lighter last year and had a better year, Shelden does the same and improved in Summer league and playing 36 min (15/10) and still gets no respect. Shelden had very similar college stats to David West and a pretty similar slow NBA start but developed into a monster. What exactly is Mikki ceiling, we know what Miller and he bring? I know Reggie thinks they will win more with Moore talks a good game, but this preseason is showing you can't even stay close with Moore-Miller combo. I think Reggie should play Hawes and Shelden with Miller and see where they develop, and I think he will feel the same after a few ugh regular season games. I do really like Greene and Thompson also. I like the future of the Kings. If I were a team with Dwight Howard I would like Mikki Moore playing next to him. Moore and Miller, no thank you.

[pillwenney]

The fact you won't find anything better doesn't justify bringing him, it's the question whether he brings improvements necessary, I didn't see it last season, Kenny Thomas might suck but but so does Mikki Moore and the upgrade isn't all that big, he could've been replaced with KT, and extra minutes for Hawes and other fillers that came along (Sheldon and Justin Williams).
And what void exactly does Moore fill? catching half of the passes thrown at him for mid range jumpers and dunks while providing little defense and no rebounding? a lot of guys can do that, hell, Hawes could do that last year.
If he was brought for what he's worth, fine, but no, he was brought for a lot more.

He was brought in to be a decent stop gap. I'm not sure what you were expecting out of him.

And no, Spencer could not have filled Mikki's role at all last year because Spencer is no where near the finisher that Mikki is. Mikki's hands are a legitimate criticism, but when he does catch it within a couple feet of the basket, he dunks it. When Spencer catches it, he ends up hurrying himself into an off balance hook shot from 10 feet out.

Mikki didn't suddenly become a worse rebounder and defender when he got here, he was the same as he always was. And like I said, he's not even a bad defender. Sure he'll struggle against the strength of centers but he ranges from below-average-pretty damn good against PFs, depending on the matchup IMO.

The one thing I can see people complaining about are his hands. That's legitimate because he would have been more useful last year if that hadn't been a problem. But that's hardly any reason to call the signing a disaster.

And yes, Kenny would have been much worse last year. Mikki was a low level starter, but he wasn't completely out of place as a starter. He just wasn't that bad. Kenny was downright horrid last year when he played.

[cdt3]

I'm sorry about continuing the Mikki Moore scab, but here are his rankings from last year. #51 in the NBA in rebounding beaten by rebounding legends Vince Carter, Darko (tied with unfilled potential), Luis Scola, M. Miller, and Rudy Gay. #63 in the NBA in block shots beaten by shot blocking monsters Hawes (playing half the minutes Mikki played last year), Josh Childress (not important enough to be resigned), Johan Petro, Joe Smith, and Francisco Garcia (WTF?). #130 in the NBA in scoring by such scoring icons as Steve Blake, Keith Bogans, Sasha Vujasic, and Boris Diaw (loses all scoring to Shaq and Stoudy). You go Mikki. Who does this guy have naked pictures of? Lets look at the man in action. The only win Mikki led us to in preseason against the worst team in the league, lets look at that winning line: 4 points/2 rebounds/0block in 20 min. What a force?! We don't need Webber with finishers like this guy. The closest loss in preseason we had was to the Clips w/no Mikki in Uni. Leadership... I can't believe you people still can't say get out there Hawes and Shelden, show us what you've got (it has to be better than MM). But I know you say Mikki can dunk once a game, really only with no defenders around despite being is 7 foot tall. I'm just saying moving MM to the bench is not really losing Shaq in his prime.