2023-24 General Thread

[LightTheBeam]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

[FarBeyondDriven]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

yeah, it kinda sucks reading crap like that. Fox is one of maybe a dozen players in the NBA that can carry a team to a playoff victory. If he was playing in NY or LA he'd be a major star. Our fanbase definitely takes him for granted.

[typedrat]

I think it's just downstream of the years of watching him fail to magically make the rest of our terrible rosters not suck. We've been deadened to what he does because we're used to not winning while he does it, even if that's not his fault.

[BoogieTime]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

While there really isnt magic stat that encapsulates efficiency fully, most nba analysts prefer ts% to simple fg% and 3pt% lol

So go down the list https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-point-guard-tiers-2023-24 and tell me who is near Fox in the top tiers other than the young Maxey who has a better ts%

Since Fox is a neutral defender and doesn't playmaker we pay him to score, and he doesn't even do it at league average ts%

paying 50 mil a year for a volume scorer at Fox's ts% who doesn't help out much in other areas is concerning and for me a no, he needs to pick it up

[BoogieTime]

I think it's just downstream of the years of watching him fail to magically make the rest of our terrible rosters not suck. We've been deadened to what he does because we're used to not winning while he does it, even if that's not his fault.

What *Sabonis, 6th in mvp ladder at nba.com, does with the roster to make it not suck. a lot

[OxAndFox]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

Then doubles down on TS% when Fox is better! All that despite being a far, far below-average FT shooter, which people should get on Fox about. The other stuff? Nah, not so much.

[OxAndFox]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

While there really isnt magic stat that encapsulates efficiency fully, most nba analysts prefer ts% to simple fg% and 3pt% lol

So go down the list https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-point-guard-tiers-2023-24 and tell me who is near Fox in the top tiers other than the young Maxey who has a better ts%

Since Fox is a neutral defender and doesn't playmaker we pay him to score, and he doesn't even do it at league average ts%

paying 50 mil a year for a volume scorer at Fox's ts% who doesn't help out much in other areas is concerning and for me a no, he needs to pick it up

Ok, now I know where you're going wrong. Fox is getting $50m? Really? It's much closer to half that.
Doesn't help out in other areas? Dear lord.
A neutral defender? Even a Fox hater can't be serious about that.

[OxAndFox]

I think it's just downstream of the years of watching him fail to magically make the rest of our terrible rosters not suck. We've been deadened to what he does because we're used to not winning while he does it, even if that's not his fault.

What *Sabonis, 6th in mvp ladder at nba.com, does with the roster to make it not suck. a lot

Why do you have to constantly put Kings players up against other Kings players to other Kings fans?

It's like you're trying to manufacture Team Sabonis vs Team Fox here. Let me just say, the rest of Kings fans on here, from what I can gather, are Team Sacramento and are supporters of both. Same as what Fox and Sabonis are, they're all in together.
That doesn't mean any of us can't be critical of either one.

No one is suggesting you can't be critical, however it's pretty blatant at this point.

[codydaze]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

Then doubles down on TS% when Fox is better! All that despite being a far, far below-average FT shooter, which people should get on Fox about. The other stuff? Nah, not so much.

His poor free throw shooting is what pulls his TS% down so much too. If he was an 80% shooter from the line all of a sudden that efficiency jumps way up. His percentages from the field are pretty damn efficient for the volume of shots he takes and defensive attention he gets with the ball.

[BoogieTime]

It's hilarious to read people here saying the words inefficient and volume scorer next to fox name.

27pts, 47% from the field, 37% from 3.

Then the same person tries to hype up Monk. Who was 15ppg on 44% and 35%.

Like holy crap, open your eyes or something lol. We don't deserve fox man. It's pathetic

While there really isnt magic stat that encapsulates efficiency fully, most nba analysts prefer ts% to simple fg% and 3pt% lol

So go down the list https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-point-guard-tiers-2023-24 and tell me who is near Fox in the top tiers other than the young Maxey who has a better ts%

Since Fox is a neutral defender and doesn't playmaker we pay him to score, and he doesn't even do it at league average ts%

paying 50 mil a year for a volume scorer at Fox's ts% who doesn't help out much in other areas is concerning and for me a no, he needs to pick it up

Ok, now I know where you're going wrong. Fox is getting $50m? Really? It's much closer to half that.
Doesn't help out in other areas? Dear lord.
A neutral defender? Even a Fox hater can't be serious about that.

Because the steals override the fact that some of the other advanced stats I see paint him neutral and we actively try to put defenders on key offensive opposition than him?

The 50 mil is the Specter of his next contract. I haven't closed the door on him improving the ts like had in 2023. These are contract years

I don't care about the Sabonis v Fox, OP on that other post seemed to be framing it as Fox was the clear best player on the team but I may have been off

[Lost in LA]

Who runs the PR team for the Kings, one of Vivek's daughters? Why in the world make this press release?

[OxAndFox]

While there really isnt magic stat that encapsulates efficiency fully, most nba analysts prefer ts% to simple fg% and 3pt% lol

So go down the list https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-point-guard-tiers-2023-24 and tell me who is near Fox in the top tiers other than the young Maxey who has a better ts%

Since Fox is a neutral defender and doesn't playmaker we pay him to score, and he doesn't even do it at league average ts%

paying 50 mil a year for a volume scorer at Fox's ts% who doesn't help out much in other areas is concerning and for me a no, he needs to pick it up

Ok, now I know where you're going wrong. Fox is getting $50m? Really? It's much closer to half that.
Doesn't help out in other areas? Dear lord.
A neutral defender? Even a Fox hater can't be serious about that.

Because the steals override the fact that some of the other advanced stats I see paint him neutral and we actively try to put defenders on key offensive opposition than him?

The 50 mil is the Specter of his next contract. I haven't closed the door on him improving the ts like had in 2023. These are contract years

I don't care about the Sabonis v Fox, OP on that other post seemed to be framing it as Fox was the clear best player on the team but I may have been off

The $50m you're referring to is just a lie though. He has never earned $50m in a season. Not the one just gone, not next. Not even close. You can't judge someone on something that hasn't even happened.
When you have to make things up, that's how flimsy what you're pushing is.

[BoogieTime]

Ok, now I know where you're going wrong. Fox is getting $50m? Really? It's much closer to half that.
Doesn't help out in other areas? Dear lord.
A neutral defender? Even a Fox hater can't be serious about that.

Because the steals override the fact that some of the other advanced stats I see paint him neutral and we actively try to put defenders on key offensive opposition than him?

The 50 mil is the Specter of his next contract. I haven't closed the door on him improving the ts like had in 2023. These are contract years

I don't care about the Sabonis v Fox, OP on that other post seemed to be framing it as Fox was the clear best player on the team but I may have been off

The $50m you're referring to is just a lie though. He has never earned $50m in a season. Not the one just gone, not next. Not even close. You can't judge someone on something that hasn't even happened.
When you have to make things up, that's how flimsy what you're pushing is.

The entire scope of that conversation is me looking into the future, not present or past on Fox's placement on the team.

I'm saying, if he has more years like this past one, and shows repeated history, I'd like to move him for value before he is making that on this team.

He's looking to make it in 2 years time

[OxAndFox]

Because the steals override the fact that some of the other advanced stats I see paint him neutral and we actively try to put defenders on key offensive opposition than him?

The 50 mil is the Specter of his next contract. I haven't closed the door on him improving the ts like had in 2023. These are contract years

I don't care about the Sabonis v Fox, OP on that other post seemed to be framing it as Fox was the clear best player on the team but I may have been off

The $50m you're referring to is just a lie though. He has never earned $50m in a season. Not the one just gone, not next. Not even close. You can't judge someone on something that hasn't even happened.
When you have to make things up, that's how flimsy what you're pushing is.

The entire scope of that conversation is me looking into the future, not present or past on Fox's placement on the team.

I'm saying, if he has more years like this past one, and shows repeated history, I'd like to move him for value before he is making that on this team.

He's looking to make it in 2 years time

Oh I get it, let's critique a player now, but use some imaginary future figure (he might get...gasp...more than $50m) to make my already flimsy argument that little bit stronger.

This is what you wrote initially:

If Fox has another year like this last year, I will more than likely just want him traded, for value hopefully

This is just bad. The dude had career high scoring numbers, ranked #8 in the NBA, career high rebounding numbers when Brown has been calling on others to rebound, shot almost .050 above last years 3pt shooting which was also a big improvement (still wasn't anywhere close to what it should have been, but hey this is how improvement goes), while taking 2.8 more per game, all while taking on more of the scoring load for this team for some reason, led the league in steals and made a huge jump defensively.

Paying that much for a volume scorer who is inefficient and that inconsistent, is just no for me

See, I get it, this is where you're already putting the $50m price on him. These are his "contract years" as you put it.
Again, you're stretching things out to try and fit your narrative. It doesn't work that way. Let's actually look at efficiency, overall.

Players who Fox had a higher efficiency rating than and were around each other scoring load wise. Steph Curry. Tyrese Maxey. Anthony Edwards. Damian Lillard. Jaylen Brown. Demar Derozan. Zion Williamson (tied). The guys below Zion scoring wise aren't really close to the 26ppg and were below Fox anway.
The guys that were above him, were a fair way in front. Luka. Giannis. SGA. Durant. Booker. Tatum.
And he wasn't far away from Brunson. Jokic was head and shoulders above everyone.
How many of the guys mentioned is Fox getting more than?
Steph? No. Maxey? Yes. Edwards? Not next season. Lillard? No. Brown? No. Derozan Yes. Zion? No. Luka? No. Giannis? No. SGA? No. Durant? No. Booker? No. Tatum? No. Brunson? Yes. Jokic? No.
So Maxey who is just coming off a rookie deal, Brunson and Derozan are the only guys that are scoring anywhere near Fox and still aren't as efficient overall that are earning less than him.
Make it make sense?

I liked his first year under Brown, it was both offensively productive and he rose to the occasions both in the clutch/playoffs. He wasn’t productive this year and didn’t rise to any occasions - clutch or playins

I think you will find that Monk took over the "clutch" occasions this year for the most part and they were perfectly fine with it. If you ask me that is a huge tick for everyone involved. 99% of players in Fox's shoes would be kicking and screaming that he is the clutch guy after winning the award last year and he should have the ball in his hands, but you saw him defer to Monk and vice versa. Was it as good as last year? No, it absolutely wasn't. The problems with this team had NOTHING to do with clutch performance IMO as they shouldn't have been there for the most part, and yes, Fox is one of the players that should be held accountable for that.

Now, he’s improved defensively and had one not so good offensive year. But if you start seeing the consistency/efficiency issues going on for years etc.. He’s got these contract years to show what he can do. He's talented enough, we've seen it, but does he have the motor to consistently produce. Im hopeful but it needs to be on the court.

[/quote]

The guards in the all defensive team are specialists. Herb Jones, Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs and Derrick White.
Look where the top scorers ranked. Fox is with them. The highest is SGA and he finishes 3rd on his team in All NBA defensive votes, so I would suggest its more a team vote, which Fox's best defender as a teammate is Keegan in his 2nd season.
To say he was average defensively is flat out wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree because we've all seen it before and it's not going to change.

[BoogieTime]

The $50m you're referring to is just a lie though. He has never earned $50m in a season. Not the one just gone, not next. Not even close. You can't judge someone on something that hasn't even happened.
When you have to make things up, that's how flimsy what you're pushing is.

The entire scope of that conversation is me looking into the future, not present or past on Fox's placement on the team.

I'm saying, if he has more years like this past one, and shows repeated history, I'd like to move him for value before he is making that on this team.

He's looking to make it in 2 years time

Oh I get it, let's critique a player now, but use some imaginary future figure (he might get...gasp...more than $50m) to make my already flimsy argument that little bit stronger.

This is what you wrote initially:

If Fox has another year like this last year, I will more than likely just want him traded, for value hopefully

This is just bad. The dude had career high scoring numbers, ranked #8 in the NBA, career high rebounding numbers when Brown has been calling on others to rebound, shot almost .050 above last years 3pt shooting which was also a big improvement (still wasn't anywhere close to what it should have been, but hey this is how improvement goes), while taking 2.8 more per game, all while taking on more of the scoring load for this team for some reason, led the league in steals and made a huge jump defensively.

Paying that much for a volume scorer who is inefficient and that inconsistent, is just no for me

See, I get it, this is where you're already putting the $50m price on him. These are his "contract years" as you put it.
Again, you're stretching things out to try and fit your narrative. It doesn't work that way. Let's actually look at efficiency, overall.

Players who Fox had a higher efficiency rating than and were around each other scoring load wise. Steph Curry. Tyrese Maxey. Anthony Edwards. Damian Lillard. Jaylen Brown. Demar Derozan. Zion Williamson (tied). The guys below Zion scoring wise aren't really close to the 26ppg and were below Fox anway.
The guys that were above him, were a fair way in front. Luka. Giannis. SGA. Durant. Booker. Tatum.
And he wasn't far away from Brunson. Jokic was head and shoulders above everyone.
How many of the guys mentioned is Fox getting more than?
Steph? No. Maxey? Yes. Edwards? Not next season. Lillard? No. Brown? No. Derozan Yes. Zion? No. Luka? No. Giannis? No. SGA? No. Durant? No. Booker? No. Tatum? No. Brunson? Yes. Jokic? No.
So Maxey who is just coming off a rookie deal, Brunson and Derozan are the only guys that are scoring anywhere near Fox and still aren't as efficient overall that are earning less than him.
Make it make sense?

I liked his first year under Brown, it was both offensively productive and he rose to the occasions both in the clutch/playoffs. He wasn’t productive this year and didn’t rise to any occasions - clutch or playins

I think you will find that Monk took over the "clutch" occasions this year for the most part and they were perfectly fine with it. If you ask me that is a huge tick for everyone involved. 99% of players in Fox's shoes would be kicking and screaming that he is the clutch guy after winning the award last year and he should have the ball in his hands, but you saw him defer to Monk and vice versa. Was it as good as last year? No, it absolutely wasn't. The problems with this team had NOTHING to do with clutch performance IMO as they shouldn't have been there for the most part, and yes, Fox is one of the players that should be held accountable for that.

Now, he’s improved defensively and had one not so good offensive year. But if you start seeing the consistency/efficiency issues going on for years etc.. He’s got these contract years to show what he can do. He's talented enough, we've seen it, but does he have the motor to consistently produce. Im hopeful but it needs to be on the court.

The guards in the all defensive team are specialists. Herb Jones, Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs and Derrick White.
Look where the top scorers ranked. Fox is with them. The highest is SGA and he finishes 3rd on his team in All NBA defensive votes, so I would suggest its more a team vote, which Fox's best defender as a teammate is Keegan in his 2nd season.
To say he was average defensively is flat out wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree because we've all seen it before and it's not going to change.[/quote]

Ok. Your still using FG%, when as far as I’m concerned the basketball community analyzes by TS% as a more important metric. Am I wrong on that or does this need more in depth/third party discussion?

If that’s true, Fox’s TS% isn’t is not good or in Zion/DeRozan etc ball park and you can contrast that relative to the stars in the league and who is getting paid what.

Your telling me steals are a more important metric than .1 dbpm for example? Tyrese just had a lot of steals. It helps the team but…

[OxAndFox]

The entire scope of that conversation is me looking into the future, not present or past on Fox's placement on the team.

I'm saying, if he has more years like this past one, and shows repeated history, I'd like to move him for value before he is making that on this team.

He's looking to make it in 2 years time

Oh I get it, let's critique a player now, but use some imaginary future figure (he might get...gasp...more than $50m) to make my already flimsy argument that little bit stronger.

This is what you wrote initially:

If Fox has another year like this last year, I will more than likely just want him traded, for value hopefully

This is just bad. The dude had career high scoring numbers, ranked #8 in the NBA, career high rebounding numbers when Brown has been calling on others to rebound, shot almost .050 above last years 3pt shooting which was also a big improvement (still wasn't anywhere close to what it should have been, but hey this is how improvement goes), while taking 2.8 more per game, all while taking on more of the scoring load for this team for some reason, led the league in steals and made a huge jump defensively.

Paying that much for a volume scorer who is inefficient and that inconsistent, is just no for me

See, I get it, this is where you're already putting the $50m price on him. These are his "contract years" as you put it.
Again, you're stretching things out to try and fit your narrative. It doesn't work that way. Let's actually look at efficiency, overall.

Players who Fox had a higher efficiency rating than and were around each other scoring load wise. Steph Curry. Tyrese Maxey. Anthony Edwards. Damian Lillard. Jaylen Brown. Demar Derozan. Zion Williamson (tied). The guys below Zion scoring wise aren't really close to the 26ppg and were below Fox anway.
The guys that were above him, were a fair way in front. Luka. Giannis. SGA. Durant. Booker. Tatum.
And he wasn't far away from Brunson. Jokic was head and shoulders above everyone.
How many of the guys mentioned is Fox getting more than?
Steph? No. Maxey? Yes. Edwards? Not next season. Lillard? No. Brown? No. Derozan Yes. Zion? No. Luka? No. Giannis? No. SGA? No. Durant? No. Booker? No. Tatum? No. Brunson? Yes. Jokic? No.
So Maxey who is just coming off a rookie deal, Brunson and Derozan are the only guys that are scoring anywhere near Fox and still aren't as efficient overall that are earning less than him.
Make it make sense?

I liked his first year under Brown, it was both offensively productive and he rose to the occasions both in the clutch/playoffs. He wasn’t productive this year and didn’t rise to any occasions - clutch or playins

I think you will find that Monk took over the "clutch" occasions this year for the most part and they were perfectly fine with it. If you ask me that is a huge tick for everyone involved. 99% of players in Fox's shoes would be kicking and screaming that he is the clutch guy after winning the award last year and he should have the ball in his hands, but you saw him defer to Monk and vice versa. Was it as good as last year? No, it absolutely wasn't. The problems with this team had NOTHING to do with clutch performance IMO as they shouldn't have been there for the most part, and yes, Fox is one of the players that should be held accountable for that.

Now, he’s improved defensively and had one not so good offensive year. But if you start seeing the consistency/efficiency issues going on for years etc.. He’s got these contract years to show what he can do. He's talented enough, we've seen it, but does he have the motor to consistently produce. Im hopeful but it needs to be on the court.

The guards in the all defensive team are specialists. Herb Jones, Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs and Derrick White.
Look where the top scorers ranked. Fox is with them. The highest is SGA and he finishes 3rd on his team in All NBA defensive votes, so I would suggest its more a team vote, which Fox's best defender as a teammate is Keegan in his 2nd season.
To say he was average defensively is flat out wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree because we've all seen it before and it's not going to change.

Ok. Your still using FG%, when as far as I’m concerned the basketball community analyzes by TS% as a more important metric. Am I wrong on that or does this need more in depth/third party discussion?

If that’s true, Fox’s TS% isn’t is not good or in Zion/DeRozan etc ball park and you can contrast that relative to the stars in the league and who is getting paid what.

Your telling me steals are a more important metric than .1 dbpm for example? Tyrese just had a lot of steals. It helps the team but…[/quote]
I used efficiency. It doesn't just take shooting into account. I would think that is more important overall??

If you just pluck out TS% he isn't far behind Brunson and Anthony Edwards. He isn't over that 60% like the best offensive weapons in the game, but, as mentioned, he does make up for it in other areas.
Despite this, you're painting him as having a poor season. Does he have areas to improve on? Absolutely. Name a player that doesn't. I don't think any of his weaknesses are the #1 thing holding this team back either.
Fox was responsible for 29.9% of this teams points. The next best was a bench player in Monk at 24.4. To say this guy had to do most of the heavy lifting is an understatement.

The thing about his 0.1dbpm is he elevated it from -0.9. A full point better this season. And if 0.1 is bad then Monk is a terrible defender and Sabonis is rivalling Rudy Gobert, who by the way had a measly 1.7 dbpm on the #1 defensive team, by the defensive player of the year.

Keegan went from -1.0 to -0.5.
Sabonis went from 1.8 to 2.4
Barnes went from -1.5 to -1.3
Huerter went from -0.3 to -0.4
Monk went from -1.4 to -1.0

So in essence what you're suggesting is Fox's improvement on the defensive end was a catalyst for the Kings to move from what, 24th in defense to #16. It's great to see you come around.

if you want to look at the D, maybe look at the bottom 4 guys in defensive rating:
Harrison Barnes - 115.7
Domantas Sabonis - 115.2
Kevin Huerter - 115.0
Malik Monk - 115.0

And then look at the top 4 guys in defensive rating that had more than 10mpg - Maybe these dudes are doing something right:
Keon Ellis - 109.0
Trey Lyles - 110.2
Davion Mitchell 112.1
De'Aaron Fox - 112.3

We can bring out stats to try and justify our position all day long.

[OxAndFox]

The entire scope of that conversation is me looking into the future, not present or past on Fox's placement on the team.

I'm saying, if he has more years like this past one, and shows repeated history, I'd like to move him for value before he is making that on this team.

He's looking to make it in 2 years time

Oh I get it, let's critique a player now, but use some imaginary future figure (he might get...gasp...more than $50m) to make my already flimsy argument that little bit stronger.

This is what you wrote initially:

If Fox has another year like this last year, I will more than likely just want him traded, for value hopefully

This is just bad. The dude had career high scoring numbers, ranked #8 in the NBA, career high rebounding numbers when Brown has been calling on others to rebound, shot almost .050 above last years 3pt shooting which was also a big improvement (still wasn't anywhere close to what it should have been, but hey this is how improvement goes), while taking 2.8 more per game, all while taking on more of the scoring load for this team for some reason, led the league in steals and made a huge jump defensively.

Paying that much for a volume scorer who is inefficient and that inconsistent, is just no for me

See, I get it, this is where you're already putting the $50m price on him. These are his "contract years" as you put it.
Again, you're stretching things out to try and fit your narrative. It doesn't work that way. Let's actually look at efficiency, overall.

Players who Fox had a higher efficiency rating than and were around each other scoring load wise. Steph Curry. Tyrese Maxey. Anthony Edwards. Damian Lillard. Jaylen Brown. Demar Derozan. Zion Williamson (tied). The guys below Zion scoring wise aren't really close to the 26ppg and were below Fox anway.
The guys that were above him, were a fair way in front. Luka. Giannis. SGA. Durant. Booker. Tatum.
And he wasn't far away from Brunson. Jokic was head and shoulders above everyone.
How many of the guys mentioned is Fox getting more than?
Steph? No. Maxey? Yes. Edwards? Not next season. Lillard? No. Brown? No. Derozan Yes. Zion? No. Luka? No. Giannis? No. SGA? No. Durant? No. Booker? No. Tatum? No. Brunson? Yes. Jokic? No.
So Maxey who is just coming off a rookie deal, Brunson and Derozan are the only guys that are scoring anywhere near Fox and still aren't as efficient overall that are earning less than him.
Make it make sense?

I liked his first year under Brown, it was both offensively productive and he rose to the occasions both in the clutch/playoffs. He wasn’t productive this year and didn’t rise to any occasions - clutch or playins

I think you will find that Monk took over the "clutch" occasions this year for the most part and they were perfectly fine with it. If you ask me that is a huge tick for everyone involved. 99% of players in Fox's shoes would be kicking and screaming that he is the clutch guy after winning the award last year and he should have the ball in his hands, but you saw him defer to Monk and vice versa. Was it as good as last year? No, it absolutely wasn't. The problems with this team had NOTHING to do with clutch performance IMO as they shouldn't have been there for the most part, and yes, Fox is one of the players that should be held accountable for that.

Now, he’s improved defensively and had one not so good offensive year. But if you start seeing the consistency/efficiency issues going on for years etc.. He’s got these contract years to show what he can do. He's talented enough, we've seen it, but does he have the motor to consistently produce. Im hopeful but it needs to be on the court.

The guards in the all defensive team are specialists. Herb Jones, Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs and Derrick White.
Look where the top scorers ranked. Fox is with them. The highest is SGA and he finishes 3rd on his team in All NBA defensive votes, so I would suggest its more a team vote, which Fox's best defender as a teammate is Keegan in his 2nd season.
To say he was average defensively is flat out wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree because we've all seen it before and it's not going to change.

Ok. Your still using FG%, when as far as I’m concerned the basketball community analyzes by TS% as a more important metric. Am I wrong on that or does this need more in depth/third party discussion?

If that’s true, Fox’s TS% isn’t is not good or in Zion/DeRozan etc ball park and you can contrast that relative to the stars in the league and who is getting paid what.

Your telling me steals are a more important metric than .1 dbpm for example? Tyrese just had a lot of steals. It helps the team but…[/quote]
I used efficiency. It doesn't just take shooting into account. I would think that is more important overall??

If you just pluck out TS% he isn't far behind Brunson and Anthony Edwards. He isn't over that 60% like the best offensive weapons in the game, but, as mentioned, he does make up for it in other areas.
Despite this, you're painting him as having a poor season. Does he have areas to improve on? Absolutely. Name a player that doesn't. I don't think any of his weaknesses are the #1 thing holding this team back either.
Fox was responsible for 29.9% of this teams points. The next best was a bench player in Monk at 24.4. To say this guy had to do most of the heavy lifting is an understatement.

The thing about his 0.1dbpm is he elevated it from -0.9. A full point better this season. And if 0.1 is bad then Monk is a terrible defender and Sabonis is rivalling Rudy Gobert, who by the way had a measly 1.7 dbpm on the #1 defensive team, by the defensive player of the year.

Keegan went from -1.0 to -0.5.
Sabonis went from 1.8 to 2.4
Barnes went from -1.5 to -1.3
Huerter went from -0.3 to -0.4
Monk went from -1.4 to -1.0

So in essence what you're suggesting is Fox's improvement on the defensive end was a catalyst for the Kings to move from what, 24th in defense to #16. It's great to see you come around.

if you want to look at the D, maybe look at the bottom 4 guys in defensive rating:
Harrison Barnes - 115.7
Domantas Sabonis - 115.2
Kevin Huerter - 115.0
Malik Monk - 115.0

And then look at the top 4 guys in defensive rating that had more than 10mpg - Maybe these dudes are doing something right:
Keon Ellis - 109.0
Trey Lyles - 110.2
Davion Mitchell 112.1
De'Aaron Fox - 112.3

We can bring out stats to try and justify our position all day long.

[BoogieTime]

What do you mean you used efficiency? I'm not "plucking" ts%, what general stat is more respected? Do we need to get more information on this from another thread/forum, as im open to being corrected.

So, if I'm right on that, you literally just compared him to one of the few stars in his ts% neighborhood who ive told you is overrated on several occasions (Edwards) who has a better ts% than Fox.

And your not understanding the issue that Fox going from .599 to .567 ts% is not good at all, and central to Fox's game as a scorer, as you go to lengths to defend him. His scoring doesn't help if its not at a league average ts%, does it? There are really very few offensive stars in his neighborhood of ts%

[OxAndFox]

What do you mean you used efficiency? I'm not "plucking" ts%, what general stat is more respected? Do we need to get more information on this from another thread/forum, as im open to being corrected.

So, if I'm right on that, you literally just compared him to one of the few stars in his ts% neighborhood who ive told you is overrated on several occasions (Edwards) who has a better ts% than Fox.

And your not understanding the issue that Fox going from .599 to .567 ts% is not good at all, and central to Fox's game as a scorer, as you go to lengths to defend him. His scoring doesn't help if its not at a league average ts%, does it? There are really very few offensive stars in his neighborhood of ts%

HAHAHA I love it when you go out of your way to make petulant little threats. Like it means anything here anyway. Just on that, is there 1 good Sacramento Kings player?
This is how RealGM "rates" Sacramento Kings players. How many players do you see other users create trades where they are bringing in a Kings player?? This is outside of the division threads or the what should they do threads. None? Its just been an observation of mine for around a year now.

Anyway, back to the Boogie programming. Your whole argument is about efficiency shooting the ball. Right?

If you strictly use TS% then yes he had a drop and isn't up to scratch, but that is your ENTIRE argument about the game of basketball. Maybe if Fox, who should be a #2 scorer, had a player that could at least take on some of the load on a consistent basis this might not be as much of an issue for you.

The reason I showed efficiency as an offensive stat, where he is rated as good is because it encompasses the entire offense, not just shooting the ball, which when you don't have a competent #2 it puts massive pressure on and opposition teams know this. That hurt Fox immensely this season whereas the year before the offensive game plan covered up a lot of weaknesses. It's the reason why Brown has continually said the Kings need to improve on the offensive side of the ball.

More than I have mentioned FT shooting harming his TS% and he needs to get better from there, a lot better. Not only did he shoot poorly from the FT line, but he didn't get there as much as he, almost, ever has. There are reasons for that, but you know, we went through that during the season didn't we.
Instead of taking a leap with his 3pt shooting it didn't translate into the FT line. Had he made improvements to get to 80% then his TS% not only recovers, it elevates him. He absolutely should be held accountable for that, but to take that and churn out the rubbish that we get here is ridiculous.

You know what Fox will do though? Actually work on his shot this summer with an actual shooting coach. Anyone that has shown improvement like he did from the 3pt line should be applauded, particularly when he takes the odd poor one from there (grrr). Instead you want to try and poke holes in his game ad nauseam. It's annoying and it's probably why you feel I "go at lengths to defend him".
He doesn't need defending, his game is there for all to see. And it's extremely good. Don't forget, you're the only one in this world that believes he is getting paid $50m. Do you actually think you're judging him fairly when you are trying to put out there that he is making $50m.

[BoogieTime]

What do you mean you used efficiency? I'm not "plucking" ts%, what general stat is more respected? Do we need to get more information on this from another thread/forum, as im open to being corrected.

So, if I'm right on that, you literally just compared him to one of the few stars in his ts% neighborhood who ive told you is overrated on several occasions (Edwards) who has a better ts% than Fox.

And your not understanding the issue that Fox going from .599 to .567 ts% is not good at all, and central to Fox's game as a scorer, as you go to lengths to defend him. His scoring doesn't help if its not at a league average ts%, does it? There are really very few offensive stars in his neighborhood of ts%

HAHAHA I love it when you go out of your way to make petulant little threats. Like it means anything here anyway. Just on that, is there 1 good Sacramento Kings player?
This is how RealGM "rates" Sacramento Kings players. How many players do you see other users create trades where they are bringing in a Kings player?? This is outside of the division threads or the what should they do threads. None? Its just been an observation of mine for around a year now.

Anyway, back to the Boogie programming. Your whole argument is about efficiency shooting the ball. Right?

If you strictly use TS% then yes he had a drop and isn't up to scratch, but that is your ENTIRE argument about the game of basketball. Maybe if Fox, who should be a #2 scorer, had a player that could at least take on some of the load on a consistent basis this might not be as much of an issue for you.

The reason I showed efficiency as an offensive stat, where he is rated as good is because it encompasses the entire offense, not just shooting the ball, which when you don't have a competent #2 it puts massive pressure on and opposition teams know this. That hurt Fox immensely this season whereas the year before the offensive game plan covered up a lot of weaknesses. It's the reason why Brown has continually said the Kings need to improve on the offensive side of the ball.

More than I have mentioned FT shooting harming his TS% and he needs to get better from there, a lot better. Not only did he shoot poorly from the FT line, but he didn't get there as much as he, almost, ever has. There are reasons for that, but you know, we went through that during the season didn't we.
Instead of taking a leap with his 3pt shooting it didn't translate into the FT line. Had he made improvements to get to 80% then his TS% not only recovers, it elevates him. He absolutely should be held accountable for that, but to take that and churn out the rubbish that we get here is ridiculous.

You know what Fox will do though? Actually work on his shot this summer with an actual shooting coach. Anyone that has shown improvement like he did from the 3pt line should be applauded, particularly when he takes the odd poor one from there (grrr). Instead you want to try and poke holes in his game ad nauseam. It's annoying and it's probably why you feel I "go at lengths to defend him".
He doesn't need defending, his game is there for all to see. And it's extremely good. Don't forget, you're the only one in this world that believes he is getting paid $50m. Do you actually think you're judging him fairly when you are trying to put out there that he is making $50m.

what does this mean? what is "efficiency"?