Rotation if the season started today

[dckingsfan]

Dude... the Kings shot the third highest 3 point percentage in the league!!! Our lack of attempts had nothing to do with Fox’s lack of 3 point shooting. It had everything to do with Fox’s inability ( and WCS’s) to kick the ball out to open shooters once they collapsed the defense. I can’t count the times Bogdan stood at the 3 point line, no one within 6 ft of him, screaming for the ball.

The man averaged 8.4 drives a game and averaged 2.6 shots at the rim. Hes basically passing out 70% of the time. As you said, the stats are there. I can't blame the guy from driving into the paint and passing it out to a wide open JJ to hesitate on a shot or brick.

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

[LightTheBeam]

Dude... the Kings shot the third highest 3 point percentage in the league!!! Our lack of attempts had nothing to do with Fox’s lack of 3 point shooting. It had everything to do with Fox’s inability ( and WCS’s) to kick the ball out to open shooters once they collapsed the defense. I can’t count the times Bogdan stood at the 3 point line, no one within 6 ft of him, screaming for the ball.

The man averaged 8.4 drives a game and averaged 2.6 shots at the rim. Hes basically passing out 70% of the time. As you said, the stats are there. I can't blame the guy from driving into the paint and passing it out to a wide open JJ to hesitate on a shot or brick.

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

I got my numbers by calculating the amount of drives he takes and the amount of shots at the rim. I didnt account for the dribble out. That said, are you really going to sit there and blame us being a bad 3pt shooting team because fox averages 1 less assist on the drive than Simmons? Give me a break my dude.

If you compare fox to a top 5 player at the position you're going to be disappointed. The kid was a 19 year old rookie, stats (advanced stats) are all irrelevant. He proved he has the ability to beat anyone down the floor, hes clutch, he can finish around the rim, and his shot isnt as bad as we thought it was.

I'm excited and I disagree he was the reason. We can have different opinions, I think the overall issue was playing Randolph and Koufos extended minutes to sit in the paint all game. Time will tell over the next few years.

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[LightTheBeam]

Another thing that amazes me, if you look at the analytics the lineups that features Buddy/Bogdan together had the most success.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2018/lineups/

Joerger needs to be fired ASAP. Enough about hearing those 2 cant co-exist on the floor. Its a **** joke if anyone believes that.

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

Fox/buddy/bogdan should be the lineup? What are you saying..?

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[codydaze]

Another thing that amazes me, if you look at the analytics the lineups that features Buddy/Bogdan together had the most success.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2018/lineups/

Joerger needs to be fired ASAP. Enough about hearing those 2 cant co-exist on the floor. Its a **** joke if anyone believes that.

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

The point guard on the floor for us?

[codydaze]

The man averaged 8.4 drives a game and averaged 2.6 shots at the rim. Hes basically passing out 70% of the time. As you said, the stats are there. I can't blame the guy from driving into the paint and passing it out to a wide open JJ to hesitate on a shot or brick.

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

[dckingsfan]

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

Of course - and yes, you need to see quick improvement and judge all of the youngsters that way. That is part of the rebuilding process. And last year you wouldn't be comparing him to the elite PGs, you would be comparing him to the 2nd/3rd string PGs - and he doesn't look good in that comparison as well.

But he has talent - you don't think he will make a substantial jump this year? I do. But nothing progresses very far on this team until that happens.

[Sactowndog]

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

No we are just using them as reference points so you can put the numbers in context. If you go to the link I posted their are 5 pages of players who have a higher points per drive. In terms of passes and assists per drive other rookies like Simmons and Ball are also far more advanced than Fox.

[Sactowndog]

Another thing that amazes me, if you look at the analytics the lineups that features Buddy/Bogdan together had the most success.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2018/lineups/

Joerger needs to be fired ASAP. Enough about hearing those 2 cant co-exist on the floor. Its a **** joke if anyone believes that.

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

The point guard on the floor for us?

If you are playing Buddy and Bogi they are going to have match up problems for many quicker NBA point guards.

[Sactowndog]

Another thing that amazes me, if you look at the analytics the lineups that features Buddy/Bogdan together had the most success.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2018/lineups/

Joerger needs to be fired ASAP. Enough about hearing those 2 cant co-exist on the floor. Its a **** joke if anyone believes that.

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

Fox/buddy/bogdan should be the lineup? What are you saying..?

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Got it. Thought you were saying Buddy and Bogi in the back court. Yes that will work as a small ball line-up but it will struggle guarding larger front courts.

[LightTheBeam]

Fox makes passes but he makes bad passes. That is why his assist to pass is only 8.6% versus most top point guards are in the 10% range.

Not sure where you get your pass numbers on drives.
http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PASSES_PCT&dir=1

Fox only passes 28.3% of the time on drives for a grand total of 1 assist per game. By comparison Chris Paul and Ben Simmons are at 38% for 2 assists a game. Fox does however have a high number of turnovers at .6 a game.

If he were a super efficient scorer that would be one thing but his points per is 45.6% which is is the bottom half of the league. For comparison Kyrie Irving also only passes 26.4% and 1 assist a game but Kyrie’s points per is 68.5%.

There are real statistical reasons Fox didn’t make an all rookie team. He’s a bad player. Maybe he gets better but currently we have great shooters in Buddy, Beli and Bogi and an inefficient chucker at the point who fails to get them the ball.

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

He was a 19 year old rookie on a team that brought in a vet pg to split the handling duties with him. Then instead of running a fast pace they went at a snails pace which is the exact opposite system that he would thrive in.

If Fox doesn't succeed its strictly because the situation we put him in. The kid has stud written all over him and if Joerger can't run a system to help in succeed he needs to go.

IMO aside from the Stauskas trade and signing ZBo, Vlade has done a good job. Now its time to put those pieces into motion.

[dckingsfan]

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

The point guard on the floor for us?

If you are playing Buddy and Bogi they are going to have match up problems for many quicker NBA point guards.

You are going to be playing one of Fox, Ferrell or Mason. I think the questions you should be asking is what will be the defensive schema(s) and who (and how effective) will be your rim protector(s)?

[codydaze]

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

No we are just using them as reference points so you can put the numbers in context. If you go to the link I posted their are 5 pages of players who have a higher points per drive. In terms of passes and assists per drive other rookies like Simmons and Ball are also far more advanced than Fox.

Simmons and Ball are also quite differently than Fox stylistically. Fox is not the distributor type PG those two are so the numbers need to be taken into that context as well. Fox is more of a score first point guard and that's okay, you don't have to be the type of PG Simmons and Ball are to be successful. I think he'll be fine this year, he looks to have added a bit of size, he'll likely be more acclimated to the NBA game and will be given the reigns from game 1.

[Sactowndog]

You hit the nail on the head. And if he doesn't get better quickly - the Kings need to move in a different direction. Let's hope he makes the jump this season...

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

He was a 19 year old rookie on a team that brought in a vet pg to split the handling duties with him. Then instead of running a fast pace they went at a snails pace which is the exact opposite system that he would thrive in.

If Fox doesn't succeed its strictly because the situation we put him in. The kid has stud written all over him and if Joerger can't run a system to help in succeed he needs to go.

IMO aside from the Stauskas trade and signing ZBo, Vlade has done a good job. Now its time to put those pieces into motion.

Whether we run a fast pace or slow pace is irrelevant to his ability to find open 3 point shooters when he penetrates.

I get you have a Fox man crush but he right now is a very poor point guard in the half court....
1) poor three point shooter
2) poor distributor off the drive

[dckingsfan]

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

He was a 19 year old rookie on a team that brought in a vet pg to split the handling duties with him. Then instead of running a fast pace they went at a snails pace which is the exact opposite system that he would thrive in.

If Fox doesn't succeed its strictly because the situation we put him in. The kid has stud written all over him and if Joerger can't run a system to help in succeed he needs to go.

IMO aside from the Stauskas trade and signing ZBo, Vlade has done a good job. Now its time to put those pieces into motion.

Whether we run a fast pace or slow pace is irrelevant to his ability to find open 3 point shooters when he penetrates.

I get you have a Fox man crush but he right now is a very poor point guard in the half court....
1) poor three point shooter
2) poor distributor off the drive

John Wall was the same way in his first year... I know it is anecdotal and Wall was better than Fox as a rookie - but I think there are some parallels there...

[Sactowndog]

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

No we are just using them as reference points so you can put the numbers in context. If you go to the link I posted their are 5 pages of players who have a higher points per drive. In terms of passes and assists per drive other rookies like Simmons and Ball are also far more advanced than Fox.

Simmons and Ball are also quite differently than Fox stylistically. Fox is not the distributor type PG those two are so the numbers need to be taken into that context as well. Fox is more of a score first point guard and that's okay, you don't have to be the type of PG Simmons and Ball are to be successful. I think he'll be fine this year, he looks to have added a bit of size, he'll likely be more acclimated to the NBA game and will be given the reigns from game 1.

We shall see. That was way I included the points per drive stat. Given our strong 3 point shooting, being able to drive and kick out would help the team greatly.

[Sactowndog]

He was a 19 year old rookie on a team that brought in a vet pg to split the handling duties with him. Then instead of running a fast pace they went at a snails pace which is the exact opposite system that he would thrive in.

If Fox doesn't succeed its strictly because the situation we put him in. The kid has stud written all over him and if Joerger can't run a system to help in succeed he needs to go.

IMO aside from the Stauskas trade and signing ZBo, Vlade has done a good job. Now its time to put those pieces into motion.

Whether we run a fast pace or slow pace is irrelevant to his ability to find open 3 point shooters when he penetrates.

I get you have a Fox man crush but he right now is a very poor point guard in the half court....
1) poor three point shooter
2) poor distributor off the drive

John Wall was the same way in his first year... I know it is anecdotal and Wall was better than Fox as a rookie - but I think there are some parallels there...

Yep. It’s still just his second year. He has the physical talent. We shall see if he chooses to find his teammates or force up tough shots.

[SacKingZZZ]

Agreed, and as I said in a previous post - nothing happens until Fox develops - and it might be two more years until he figures it out.

Or until his coach puts him in the right sets. With that lineup it's right there. You spread the floor run a pick and roll, let him drive, then dish out if there isn't a shot at the rim. I do believe quite a few players have made a decent career doing that. They threw a lot of complicated motion sets at them last year, now it's time to balance it out a bit with what they can do well. Spreading the floor is crucial and if summer league was any indication it might be a tough go early. This playing fast bit has hit full on so if they come out dragging up the rear in pace again some questions will have to be answered.

Fox repeatedly drove to the hoop last year and forced contested shots instead of kicking it out to open 3 point shooters. He was a primary reason why the Kings were 28th in 3 point attempts.

Just to slam on from the posts above I also saw quite a bit of him driving while two bigs were stationed in the high post or low post (the system BTW). That's not how you run a drive and dish offense. The spacing was horrible and not because of the players. They also stuck him off the ball a lot, especially early in the year in those two PG lineups. Not to mention how many lineups didn't feature reliable shooters around him. Zbo/Kosta/Willie with JJ not having a real NBA 3 point shot won't cut it. He wasn't perfect as the drive and dish player we expect but lets not pretend like he was used in that fashion in any sensible way.

[SacKingZZZ]

Another thing that amazes me, if you look at the analytics the lineups that features Buddy/Bogdan together had the most success.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2018/lineups/

Joerger needs to be fired ASAP. Enough about hearing those 2 cant co-exist on the floor. Its a **** joke if anyone believes that.

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

You switch like most teams do and help like Kings do anyway. Buddy and Bogdan on the floor together must be utilized, this either/or crap is so Kangz it's nearly infuriating.

[SacKingZZZ]

Who plays defense on the opposing point guard in that line up? If the opposing point guard is getting into the lane at will and unlike Fox knows what he is doing when he gets there.....

In some cases that line-up will work. If Ball is playing point for example Bogi can match up. But for others Bogi can’t.

The point guard on the floor for us?

If you are playing Buddy and Bogi they are going to have match up problems for many quicker NBA point guards.

Are we under the assumption that defense in any way shaped the Kings successes last year? It couldn't because they were at such a disadvantage talent wise at any given moment due to Joerger attempting to piecemeal a classic lineup together over going with his real capable players. It's been the guys MO from day 1. The problem is now he doesn't have the type of team he did in the past. They are much closer to a Golden State or run and gun guard team than the grit and grind he's known for. Next year will be the last step to see if he can augment his system to fit his players. I think he can.

[LightTheBeam]

Wait, so we're comparing Fox rookie numbers on a bad team to the league's elite point guards and saying if this 20 year old doesn't get better quickly that we need to move on from him? How does that work?

He was a 19 year old rookie on a team that brought in a vet pg to split the handling duties with him. Then instead of running a fast pace they went at a snails pace which is the exact opposite system that he would thrive in.

If Fox doesn't succeed its strictly because the situation we put him in. The kid has stud written all over him and if Joerger can't run a system to help in succeed he needs to go.

IMO aside from the Stauskas trade and signing ZBo, Vlade has done a good job. Now its time to put those pieces into motion.

Whether we run a fast pace or slow pace is irrelevant to his ability to find open 3 point shooters when he penetrates.

I get you have a Fox man crush but he right now is a very poor point guard in the half court....
1) poor three point shooter
2) poor distributor off the drive

Its not about a man crush. Its about realistic expectations for a 19 year old being placed into a dysfunctional coaching system.

I don't think he was blowing anyone out of the water last year but if your example was that Simmons averages 1 more assist off the drive than Fox and thats a HUGE insurmountable difference than IDK what to tell you.