2024-25 General Thread

[LightTheBeam]

I want to add to my post above.

Going into last year the NBA landscape was also much different.

Thunder were going to significantly improve, and we still expect them to this year.
Timberwolves were going to see progression from Ant, and more meshing from the whole team.
Nuggets were coming off a title and still have the best player in the world.
Clippers had added Harden to an already existing 50 win team.
Mavs were going to get a full year from Kyrie, added Grant Williams, DJJ, and Lively.
Suns were getting the first year of the "big 3" plus Nurkic and Grayson Allen.
Pelicans were getting older, more experienced and Zion was finally healthy
Rockets made some huge moves to rebuild the entire roster
Warriors still had their top 4, internal improvement from the kids, and better culture with Poole gone/CP3 in.
Grizzlies had added some kids + Marcus Smart. (Injuries/suspensions obviously de-railed)

This was the west landscape going into last year. Almost every team in the top 11 was expecting pretty massive improvement. The Kings had come off the healthiest year and a 1st round exit and decided to run it back.

Fast forward a year.

Thunder/Wolves/Mavs will all still be better than us. Denver as well, but they did just lose KCP.

Clippers lost PG13 and are attempting to replace with DJJ. Kawhi can't stay healthy.
Suns flamed out, could still be good, but the depth sucks and the 2 old vets can't stay healthy.
Warriors lost Klay and are replacing with Buddy Hield lol.
Lakers are a year older and coming off the healthiest season in forever.
Rockets didn't do anything and are just expecting internal improvement. NO new FVV/Brooks, etc..

Yes we should expect Grizzlies to be healthy. That team is a defensive juggernaut, but outside of Ja who can create offense? They still have some question marks.

Pelicans probably got better overall adding Dejounte, although I think we match up better now as they have no real center, lost a ton of length (Val, Nance, Dyson) and we no longer need to see JVal body Sabonis. I still would bet Ingram gets moved for a center, not sure how different that team will be.

Spurs baring Wemby becoming the best player in the league year 2 are probably still a few years away. Jazz/Portland are still not real threats.

Meanwhile the Kings may have had the single biggest offseason upgrade in the entire west (arguable, but its in the top 3).

Long post, but to say this year feels different, the west didn't get significantly better like the year before. I have us in the playoff tier with Memphis/Pelicans fighting for 5/6 (on paper, injuries happen).

Suns, Clippers, Warriors, Lakers are all comfortable healthy cruising in the regular season and fighting it out in the play-in.

We will see!

I think the Kings gotten better but I remember we all said that this team was a top-6 lock last season. Auto-playoff team we said! lol

The Kings fallen from 3rd to 9th (tied with Warriors at 46 wins). If I had to guess for this season, I think they are at least a play-in team for sure. More towards the upper half of the play-in team level (7th/8th) rather than last season's (9th/10th). This doesn't mean they can't be fighting for the 5/6 seeds (just like you wrote in your post) but I have to see this team in action before believing in that.

I'm not even trying to pretend. I wasn't on that wave. You can go back in last off-season. I thought it was clear we would regress while the league would progress. I had us as a play-in team from day 1 last year. But i also hated the off-season more than I think anyone I know.

You aren't wrong though. The west is so tight. People penciling Denver/Dallas/Minnesota in like its set in stone. They forget Dallas missed the playoffs the year before and is a Luka injury away from being a non play-in team. Minnesota struggles to score in closing outside Ant and didn't address that. Denver is very thin, Jamal/MPJ have dealt with injuries and they clearly don't have the depth to deal with that.

I see a range of outcome for Sac anywhere from 2nd seed to 10th. The difference between 4th and 10th seed was 5 games! 5 games! That's nothing. If the Kings hit fts and don't blow bad games to Chicago, Detroit, Charlotte, while winning at least 1-2 from houston/pelicans we are there! Nothing would surprise me, but today on paper I feel good about 5th-6th seed and we match up okay with all the top teams!

[OxAndFox]

Is it though?

Barnes ---> Derozan
Huerter ---> Keon
Duarte ---> Huerter
Mitchell ---> Carter/Mclaughlin

Seems like 4 pretty big rotation spot upgrades from last year.

I'd love us to still sign some forward depth. Not sure what's there.

Is Robert covington completely cooked? I'd be pretty happy giving him a 1 year deal.

Agree with the upgrades.
I would prefer to go with a Gordon Hayward and trade Huerter near the deadline for forward depth.
Think Hayward can handle 18-20mpg as the backup 3 and maybe even small ball 4. Maybe you can trade him at the deadline too.

Before TDL
Fox/Huerter/DDR/Keegan/Sabonis
Monk/Keon/Hayward/Lyles/Len

After TDL
Fox/DDR/Keegan/PF Upgrade/Sabonis
Monk/Keon/Carter/Hayward/Lyles/Len

OR
After TDL
Fox/Keon/DDR/Keegan/Sabonis
Monk/Carter/Hayward/combo F upgrade/Lyles/Len

I know people won't like Huerter starting again, but this is thinking long term. I don't want Brown to BS this pre-season. If Huerter's shoulder is good and he is FIT (this is another issue I have with a few of the players) then just come out and let everyone know this is his spot. That's the way to raise his trade value.

I don't think the team can afford to start Huerter to try and raise trade value. End of the day, most important are W/L. Keon took us from a bottom 10 defense to a top 10 defense. He makes everyone's life easier in the starting lineup. Everyone hyper focuses on blocks, fox/Keon create a ton of extra possessions with steals and deflections.

If huerter is right, he will prove that in 20mpg off the bench. If his shooting is there, some team will want him.

As for Hayward I'm Meh about him. He looked bad in okc, and he provides no defense. His game was always about being another facilitator. I don't think we need that but that's just my opinion. Monk/Huerter is the scoring off the bench.

Another interesting name to me is Chuma Okeke. He's probably a nothing, but he got buried in Orlando and always played good defense. Could be worth looking at. Have a nesmith type breakout on another team.

It's not as if Huerter wasn't the starting SG on the team that made the POs with a worse defensive cast. He also was 2nd behind Fox in deflections with 2.1 in the PO year.
Last year was 1.7 to Keon 1.8.

He isn't as bad as people want to make him out on D.

[LightTheBeam]

Agree with the upgrades.
I would prefer to go with a Gordon Hayward and trade Huerter near the deadline for forward depth.
Think Hayward can handle 18-20mpg as the backup 3 and maybe even small ball 4. Maybe you can trade him at the deadline too.

Before TDL
Fox/Huerter/DDR/Keegan/Sabonis
Monk/Keon/Hayward/Lyles/Len

After TDL
Fox/DDR/Keegan/PF Upgrade/Sabonis
Monk/Keon/Carter/Hayward/Lyles/Len

OR
After TDL
Fox/Keon/DDR/Keegan/Sabonis
Monk/Carter/Hayward/combo F upgrade/Lyles/Len

I know people won't like Huerter starting again, but this is thinking long term. I don't want Brown to BS this pre-season. If Huerter's shoulder is good and he is FIT (this is another issue I have with a few of the players) then just come out and let everyone know this is his spot. That's the way to raise his trade value.

I don't think the team can afford to start Huerter to try and raise trade value. End of the day, most important are W/L. Keon took us from a bottom 10 defense to a top 10 defense. He makes everyone's life easier in the starting lineup. Everyone hyper focuses on blocks, fox/Keon create a ton of extra possessions with steals and deflections.

If huerter is right, he will prove that in 20mpg off the bench. If his shooting is there, some team will want him.

As for Hayward I'm Meh about him. He looked bad in okc, and he provides no defense. His game was always about being another facilitator. I don't think we need that but that's just my opinion. Monk/Huerter is the scoring off the bench.

Another interesting name to me is Chuma Okeke. He's probably a nothing, but he got buried in Orlando and always played good defense. Could be worth looking at. Have a nesmith type breakout on another team.

It's not as if Huerter wasn't the starting SG on the team that made the POs with a worse defensive cast. He also was 2nd behind Fox in deflections with 2.1 in the PO year.
Last year was 1.7 to Keon 1.8.

He isn't as bad as people want to make him out on D.

IDK man. This team cant afford weak links and the day Keon came in for Huerter the defense changed over night. That was no coincidence literally nothing else changed. It's not all about counting stats, deflections, steals, blocks.. Huerter and Barnes are two guys who are incapable of staying in front of offensive players. They just aren't laterally quick enough.

[OxAndFox]

Don't forget guys. This team was in 6th place on March 20. 3 games back from 4th and 2 from 5th. They could go either way.

Instead of propelling forward with momentum the Kings go and lose to the Wizards on the road, and after their great offensive output against the Raptors in the previous game, the Kings score more than 110 only 4 more times for the entire season and go 6-8 to end the season and drop to 9th.

That's why Monte went and got DDR. It was clear when Monk and Huerter wasn't there the offense was putrid. Absolutely putrid and was completely reliant on Fox.
Domas had his worst stint for the team. Best rebounding numbers mind you.
Keegan raised his game, but efficiency went into the ground.
Lyles shot about as poorly as he ever has
Keon shot the ball well but can't handle a heavier load on offense which is understandable.
Barnes was still the same.

The other guys that got minutes shouldn't be asked to do more than they did anyway.

[OxAndFox]

I don't think the team can afford to start Huerter to try and raise trade value. End of the day, most important are W/L. Keon took us from a bottom 10 defense to a top 10 defense. He makes everyone's life easier in the starting lineup. Everyone hyper focuses on blocks, fox/Keon create a ton of extra possessions with steals and deflections.

If huerter is right, he will prove that in 20mpg off the bench. If his shooting is there, some team will want him.

As for Hayward I'm Meh about him. He looked bad in okc, and he provides no defense. His game was always about being another facilitator. I don't think we need that but that's just my opinion. Monk/Huerter is the scoring off the bench.

Another interesting name to me is Chuma Okeke. He's probably a nothing, but he got buried in Orlando and always played good defense. Could be worth looking at. Have a nesmith type breakout on another team.

It's not as if Huerter wasn't the starting SG on the team that made the POs with a worse defensive cast. He also was 2nd behind Fox in deflections with 2.1 in the PO year.
Last year was 1.7 to Keon 1.8.

He isn't as bad as people want to make him out on D.

IDK man. This team cant afford weak links and the day Keon came in for Huerter the defense changed over night. That was no coincidence literally nothing else changed. It's not all about counting stats, deflections, steals, blocks.. Huerter and Barnes are two guys who are incapable of staying in front of offensive players. They just aren't laterally quick enough.

And as I mentioned in the last post. The Kings were in 6th place on March 20. When did Keon come into the starting line-up for Huerter? March 20.
They thumped Toronto on the road with Keon in the starting line-up and then lost to the Wizards. From there it all fell apart.
I'm not suggesting it's because of Keon. I would rather him in the SL too. But Huerter isn't nothing, and that is what is often missed. He is a large part of that offense, which if it stays the same is going to be about as clunky as any NBA offense has looked. Who takes the hit from that? Domas? Because he can't play the same role with DDR on the team. More of a different subject, but hey.

The reason why the defense improved in the latter stages of the season was because the NBA allowed more physical style of play. It was obvious and coach Brown spoke on this and pointed to it as a reason for the improvement. That's not to suggest Keon didn't have an impact. He did.

[OxAndFox]

I don't think the team can afford to start Huerter to try and raise trade value. End of the day, most important are W/L. Keon took us from a bottom 10 defense to a top 10 defense. He makes everyone's life easier in the starting lineup. Everyone hyper focuses on blocks, fox/Keon create a ton of extra possessions with steals and deflections.

If huerter is right, he will prove that in 20mpg off the bench. If his shooting is there, some team will want him.

As for Hayward I'm Meh about him. He looked bad in okc, and he provides no defense. His game was always about being another facilitator. I don't think we need that but that's just my opinion. Monk/Huerter is the scoring off the bench.

Another interesting name to me is Chuma Okeke. He's probably a nothing, but he got buried in Orlando and always played good defense. Could be worth looking at. Have a nesmith type breakout on another team.

It's not as if Huerter wasn't the starting SG on the team that made the POs with a worse defensive cast. He also was 2nd behind Fox in deflections with 2.1 in the PO year.
Last year was 1.7 to Keon 1.8.

He isn't as bad as people want to make him out on D.

IDK man. This team cant afford weak links and the day Keon came in for Huerter the defense changed over night. That was no coincidence literally nothing else changed. It's not all about counting stats, deflections, steals, blocks.. Huerter and Barnes are two guys who are incapable of staying in front of offensive players. They just aren't laterally quick enough.

All teams except Boston are filled with weak links.

And I will say you can have Huerter in the starting line-up and win. They did. All year in the PO year and most of this past season. And with Huerter sucking shooting the ball this past season the Kings were in 4th place in the "bloodbath and boogey man" West on Xmas day. It was all before them and they dropped the ball.

Are changes required? Absolutely. I'm more of the opinion to trade him now or at the deadline. If you go deadline it's to raise his value and IMO he won't raise it off the bench and you know the team operates well with him as a starter.

[LightTheBeam]

It's not as if Huerter wasn't the starting SG on the team that made the POs with a worse defensive cast. He also was 2nd behind Fox in deflections with 2.1 in the PO year.
Last year was 1.7 to Keon 1.8.

He isn't as bad as people want to make him out on D.

IDK man. This team cant afford weak links and the day Keon came in for Huerter the defense changed over night. That was no coincidence literally nothing else changed. It's not all about counting stats, deflections, steals, blocks.. Huerter and Barnes are two guys who are incapable of staying in front of offensive players. They just aren't laterally quick enough.

All teams except Boston are filled with weak links.

And I will say you can have Huerter in the starting line-up and win. They did. All year in the PO year and most of this past season. And with Huerter sucking shooting the ball this past season the Kings were in 4th place in the "bloodbath and boogey man" West on Xmas day. It was all before them and they dropped the ball.

Are changes required? Absolutely. I'm more of the opinion to trade him now or at the deadline. If you go deadline it's to raise his value and IMO he won't raise it off the bench and you know the team operates well with him as a starter.

That year was a down year for the West tbh. OKC/Minnesota hadn't ascended yet. Clippers/Warriors/Lakers were all injured and still finished 5-7. We got lucky tbh and fortunate our health was awesome.

Kevin had a decent November, but October/December was awful for him. We were in 4th despite him not because of him, Fox was playing at an MVP level which we saw isn't reliable or sustainable through an entire season.

IDK man... I'm not a believer in sabotaging the team to raise trade values. If hes worth a damn he will improve his value with minutes not because hes propped into a spot he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. Keon Ellis is the future, he's got the capability of being this Kings version of Doug Christie, a true utility swiss army knife kind of guy. I'm not messing with that so that we can dump Huerter.

Best case Huerter becomes a reliable bench player who can then fetch us a forward. Worst case he sulks on the bench next year playing until Carter is healthy and then we trade his salary as an expiring after the season.

As for other teams having weak links. Sure. But the teams that are good and have weak links also have paint enforcers and we do not. Towns is meh defensively (although he's actually improved) but behind him is Gobert and Naz to shore up the paint.

Dallas has tons of weak links, but they have the best offensive player in the world and Lively/Gafford holding down the interior.

I'm not expecting us to be a favorite or serious contender, but if I build my team I want to look at the best teams not say well the Suns get away with it so we can to. That's not my mission. With Sabonis IMO its important not to have many weak links. Especially guys who are flat footed and allow blow bys.

[OxAndFox]

.

.

That year was a down year for the West tbh. OKC/Minnesota hadn't ascended yet. Clippers/Warriors/Lakers were all injured and still finished 5-7. We got lucky tbh and fortunate our health was awesome.

Kevin had a decent November, but October/December was awful for him. We were in 4th despite him not because of him, Fox was playing at an MVP level which we saw isn't reliable or sustainable through an entire season.

IDK man... I'm not a believer in sabotaging the team to raise trade values. If hes worth a damn he will improve his value with minutes not because hes propped into a spot he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. Keon Ellis is the future, he's got the capability of being this Kings version of Doug Christie, a true utility swiss army knife kind of guy. I'm not messing with that so that we can dump Huerter.

Best case Huerter becomes a reliable bench player who can then fetch us a forward. Worst case he sulks on the bench next year playing until Carter is healthy and then we trade his salary as an expiring after the season.

As for other teams having weak links. Sure. But the teams that are good and have weak links also have paint enforcers and we do not. Towns is meh defensively (although he's actually improved) but behind him is Gobert and Naz to shore up the paint.

Dallas has tons of weak links, but they have the best offensive player in the world and Lively/Gafford holding down the interior.

I'm not expecting us to be a favorite or serious contender, but if I build my team I want to look at the best teams not say well the Suns get away with it so we can to. That's not my mission. With Sabonis IMO its important not to have many weak links. Especially guys who are flat footed and allow blow bys.

So in the down year of the West and the best year of the West the Kings had 2 fewer wins while shooting the worst FT% in the NBA and Huerter started both years. That just proves what I'm saying, unless you're saying Keon elevates the Kings to a much higher win total.
I also never mentioned the Kings were in 4th because of him. What it shows is this team is the sum of all its parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by he hasn't earned it. Training camp hasn't even started yet. At this point Huerter is the starting SG for the Kings.
We can all like the shiny new toy, I do too, but the fact is Huerter
And I will go further, if you really drill down into his defensive numbers they aren't that bad.
Have a look at his defensive numbers in isolation and PnR ball handler. They aren't terrible by any means.
His spotup numbers were down last year.

[OxAndFox]

Just to point out Huerter's defensive numbers.
Kings defensive PPP
Isolation: 0.9 (42.2 Efg%)
PNR Ball Handler: 0.94 (53.4 Efg%)
PNR Roll Man: 1.12 (58.7 Efg%)
Post Up: 0.98 (49.4 Efg%)
Spotup: 1.09 (55.9 Efg%)
Handoff: 0.98 (49.3 Efg%)
Off Screen: 1.04 (52.6 Efg%)

Huerter
Isolation: 0.95 (35.7 Efg%) Low Volume
PNR Ball Handler: 0.94 (48.0 Efg%)
PNR Roll Man: No Stat
Post Up: 1.29 (65.5 Efg%) Low Volume
Spotup: 1.11 (56.9 Efg%)
Handoff: No Stat
Off Screen: 0.94 (46.7 Efg%)

This isn't to suggest Huerter is a good defender. That's not what I'm suggesting. He's just not as bad as what many make him out to be.

[OGSactownballer]

Just to point out Huerter's defensive numbers.
Kings defensive PPP
Isolation: 0.9 (42.2 Efg%)
PNR Ball Handler: 0.94 (53.4 Efg%)
PNR Roll Man: 1.12 (58.7 Efg%)
Post Up: 0.98 (49.4 Efg%)
Spotup: 1.09 (55.9 Efg%)
Handoff: 0.98 (49.3 Efg%)
Off Screen: 1.04 (52.6 Efg%)

Huerter
Isolation: 0.95 (35.7 Efg%) Low Volume
PNR Ball Handler: 0.94 (48.0 Efg%)
PNR Roll Man: No Stat
Post Up: 1.29 (65.5 Efg%) Low Volume
Spotup: 1.11 (56.9 Efg%)
Handoff: No Stat
Off Screen: 0.94 (46.7 Efg%)

This isn't to suggest Huerter is a good defender. That's not what I'm suggesting. He's just not as bad as what many make him out to be.

What it boils down to is that each of the guys has their own particular defensive pluses and minuses.

Guerrero is taller and longer. This gives him advantage over smaller SG’s that aren’t particularly strong shooters and allows him to flex to SF in three guard lineups without giving up size and rebounding. He’s actually a very good positional rebounder but being 6’8” at the SG he should be. It does go back to the “when does a defensive possession end” question that is constantly brought up about Domas. Obviously when you secure the defensive rebound or the opponent scores. My personal sense is that being as he is still pretty young it will be interesting to see if like a lot of tall SG’s in the past who are superior shooters he muscles up as he fills out in his later twenties and ultimately shifts to SF full time. His lateral speed is his biggest defensive deficiency but I feel like there is room for improvement because it’s not an offensive issue in the DHO - which absolutely depends on lateral speed and reactivity.

Keon is obvious quite different. Not as tall at 6’5”/6’6” (depends on whose info you read) but a HUGE arm span, insane lateral speed and reactivity and that innate sense and ability to understand exactly where his opponent is GOING TO and beating that man there. A lot of this is not teachable but coaching can fine tune that image ability to a sharp edge of All NBA level defense. And it makes him a prototypical modern POA defender which showed in the night and day difference in the team’s defense with him starting. The two things that make Keon the obvious choice going forward over Huerter (eventually) are that he is younger and WAY cheaper now (and probably still on his next contract too) and his shooting is on par and very consistent. It’s not as effortless and he doesn’t have quite the unlimited type range at this point that Huerter does, but I believe he is going to get there and maintain better consistency and a higher overall constant percentage. He also is going to give you just as much in more limited minutes off the bench and we don’t know yet what will happen with Hunter in that situation over the course of a season.

[LightTheBeam]

.

That year was a down year for the West tbh. OKC/Minnesota hadn't ascended yet. Clippers/Warriors/Lakers were all injured and still finished 5-7. We got lucky tbh and fortunate our health was awesome.

Kevin had a decent November, but October/December was awful for him. We were in 4th despite him not because of him, Fox was playing at an MVP level which we saw isn't reliable or sustainable through an entire season.

IDK man... I'm not a believer in sabotaging the team to raise trade values. If hes worth a damn he will improve his value with minutes not because hes propped into a spot he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. Keon Ellis is the future, he's got the capability of being this Kings version of Doug Christie, a true utility swiss army knife kind of guy. I'm not messing with that so that we can dump Huerter.

Best case Huerter becomes a reliable bench player who can then fetch us a forward. Worst case he sulks on the bench next year playing until Carter is healthy and then we trade his salary as an expiring after the season.

As for other teams having weak links. Sure. But the teams that are good and have weak links also have paint enforcers and we do not. Towns is meh defensively (although he's actually improved) but behind him is Gobert and Naz to shore up the paint.

Dallas has tons of weak links, but they have the best offensive player in the world and Lively/Gafford holding down the interior.

I'm not expecting us to be a favorite or serious contender, but if I build my team I want to look at the best teams not say well the Suns get away with it so we can to. That's not my mission. With Sabonis IMO its important not to have many weak links. Especially guys who are flat footed and allow blow bys.

So in the down year of the West and the best year of the West the Kings had 2 fewer wins while shooting the worst FT% in the NBA and Huerter started both years. That just proves what I'm saying, unless you're saying Keon elevates the Kings to a much higher win total.
I also never mentioned the Kings were in 4th because of him. What it shows is this team is the sum of all its parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by he hasn't earned it. Training camp hasn't even started yet. At this point Huerter is the starting SG for the Kings.
We can all like the shiny new toy, I do too, but the fact is Huerter
And I will go further, if you really drill down into his defensive numbers they aren't that bad.
Have a look at his defensive numbers in isolation and PnR ball handler. They aren't terrible by any means.
His spotup numbers were down last year.

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

[BoogieTime]

That year was a down year for the West tbh. OKC/Minnesota hadn't ascended yet. Clippers/Warriors/Lakers were all injured and still finished 5-7. We got lucky tbh and fortunate our health was awesome.

Kevin had a decent November, but October/December was awful for him. We were in 4th despite him not because of him, Fox was playing at an MVP level which we saw isn't reliable or sustainable through an entire season.

IDK man... I'm not a believer in sabotaging the team to raise trade values. If hes worth a damn he will improve his value with minutes not because hes propped into a spot he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. Keon Ellis is the future, he's got the capability of being this Kings version of Doug Christie, a true utility swiss army knife kind of guy. I'm not messing with that so that we can dump Huerter.

Best case Huerter becomes a reliable bench player who can then fetch us a forward. Worst case he sulks on the bench next year playing until Carter is healthy and then we trade his salary as an expiring after the season.

As for other teams having weak links. Sure. But the teams that are good and have weak links also have paint enforcers and we do not. Towns is meh defensively (although he's actually improved) but behind him is Gobert and Naz to shore up the paint.

Dallas has tons of weak links, but they have the best offensive player in the world and Lively/Gafford holding down the interior.

I'm not expecting us to be a favorite or serious contender, but if I build my team I want to look at the best teams not say well the Suns get away with it so we can to. That's not my mission. With Sabonis IMO its important not to have many weak links. Especially guys who are flat footed and allow blow bys.

So in the down year of the West and the best year of the West the Kings had 2 fewer wins while shooting the worst FT% in the NBA and Huerter started both years. That just proves what I'm saying, unless you're saying Keon elevates the Kings to a much higher win total.
I also never mentioned the Kings were in 4th because of him. What it shows is this team is the sum of all its parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by he hasn't earned it. Training camp hasn't even started yet. At this point Huerter is the starting SG for the Kings.
We can all like the shiny new toy, I do too, but the fact is Huerter
And I will go further, if you really drill down into his defensive numbers they aren't that bad.
Have a look at his defensive numbers in isolation and PnR ball handler. They aren't terrible by any means.
His spotup numbers were down last year.

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

I think it will be Keon, and defensively took the pressure of Fox by covering the best guard. To boot, Huerter's best minutes in Atlanta were at SF. He will get more of a chance to play that off the bench

[OxAndFox]

That year was a down year for the West tbh. OKC/Minnesota hadn't ascended yet. Clippers/Warriors/Lakers were all injured and still finished 5-7. We got lucky tbh and fortunate our health was awesome.

Kevin had a decent November, but October/December was awful for him. We were in 4th despite him not because of him, Fox was playing at an MVP level which we saw isn't reliable or sustainable through an entire season.

IDK man... I'm not a believer in sabotaging the team to raise trade values. If hes worth a damn he will improve his value with minutes not because hes propped into a spot he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. Keon Ellis is the future, he's got the capability of being this Kings version of Doug Christie, a true utility swiss army knife kind of guy. I'm not messing with that so that we can dump Huerter.

Best case Huerter becomes a reliable bench player who can then fetch us a forward. Worst case he sulks on the bench next year playing until Carter is healthy and then we trade his salary as an expiring after the season.

As for other teams having weak links. Sure. But the teams that are good and have weak links also have paint enforcers and we do not. Towns is meh defensively (although he's actually improved) but behind him is Gobert and Naz to shore up the paint.

Dallas has tons of weak links, but they have the best offensive player in the world and Lively/Gafford holding down the interior.

I'm not expecting us to be a favorite or serious contender, but if I build my team I want to look at the best teams not say well the Suns get away with it so we can to. That's not my mission. With Sabonis IMO its important not to have many weak links. Especially guys who are flat footed and allow blow bys.

So in the down year of the West and the best year of the West the Kings had 2 fewer wins while shooting the worst FT% in the NBA and Huerter started both years. That just proves what I'm saying, unless you're saying Keon elevates the Kings to a much higher win total.
I also never mentioned the Kings were in 4th because of him. What it shows is this team is the sum of all its parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by he hasn't earned it. Training camp hasn't even started yet. At this point Huerter is the starting SG for the Kings.
We can all like the shiny new toy, I do too, but the fact is Huerter
And I will go further, if you really drill down into his defensive numbers they aren't that bad.
Have a look at his defensive numbers in isolation and PnR ball handler. They aren't terrible by any means.
His spotup numbers were down last year.

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

That is the thing, the only area we're not on the same page is in the belief that a player can raise their value and then get traded, making room for the guy the team wants in the starting line-up.

You're of the opinion cut your losses. I'm of the opinion the Kings are a good team regardless so it's in their best interests long term to start Huerter and trade him by the deadline, potentially for much much more than we think he could be traded for.

That's the only subject here. This isn't a Keon vs Huerter thing.

[OxAndFox]

Just to point out Huerter's defensive numbers.

This isn't to suggest Huerter is a good defender. That's not what I'm suggesting. He's just not as bad as what many make him out to be.

What it boils down to is that each of the guys has their own particular defensive pluses and minuses.

Guerrero is taller and longer. This gives him advantage over smaller SG’s that aren’t particularly strong shooters and allows him to flex to SF in three guard lineups without giving up size and rebounding. He’s actually a very good positional rebounder but being 6’8” at the SG he should be. It does go back to the “when does a defensive possession end” question that is constantly brought up about Domas. Obviously when you secure the defensive rebound or the opponent scores. My personal sense is that being as he is still pretty young it will be interesting to see if like a lot of tall SG’s in the past who are superior shooters he muscles up as he fills out in his later twenties and ultimately shifts to SF full time. His lateral speed is his biggest defensive deficiency but I feel like there is room for improvement because it’s not an offensive issue in the DHO - which absolutely depends on lateral speed and reactivity.

Keon is obvious quite different. Not as tall at 6’5”/6’6” (depends on whose info you read) but a HUGE arm span, insane lateral speed and reactivity and that innate sense and ability to understand exactly where his opponent is GOING TO and beating that man there. A lot of this is not teachable but coaching can fine tune that image ability to a sharp edge of All NBA level defense. And it makes him a prototypical modern POA defender which showed in the night and day difference in the team’s defense with him starting. The two things that make Keon the obvious choice going forward over Huerter (eventually) are that he is younger and WAY cheaper now (and probably still on his next contract too) and his shooting is on par and very consistent. It’s not as effortless and he doesn’t have quite the unlimited type range at this point that Huerter does, but I believe he is going to get there and maintain better consistency and a higher overall constant percentage. He also is going to give you just as much in more limited minutes off the bench and we don’t know yet what will happen with Hunter in that situation over the course of a season.

Completely agree here.
Also I will say, and this is a question that I think potentially we all have, is what is the offense going to look like?
I don't think it's out of the question the coaching staff asks Fox to become the defender everyone knows he is and allow DDR to be the #1 option.
Fox will still get his, don't get me wrong.

Keon might also be better with Monk. The bench defense last season was bad and the main reason leads were given up.
Then you would have Fox/Monk/DDR/Keegan/Sabonis finishing the game where you have 3 elite game closers on the floor.

There are 1000 ways to put together this squad right now. There should be some tactics used to get the Kings better by the deadline.

[LightTheBeam]

So in the down year of the West and the best year of the West the Kings had 2 fewer wins while shooting the worst FT% in the NBA and Huerter started both years. That just proves what I'm saying, unless you're saying Keon elevates the Kings to a much higher win total.
I also never mentioned the Kings were in 4th because of him. What it shows is this team is the sum of all its parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by he hasn't earned it. Training camp hasn't even started yet. At this point Huerter is the starting SG for the Kings.
We can all like the shiny new toy, I do too, but the fact is Huerter
And I will go further, if you really drill down into his defensive numbers they aren't that bad.
Have a look at his defensive numbers in isolation and PnR ball handler. They aren't terrible by any means.
His spotup numbers were down last year.

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

That is the thing, the only area we're not on the same page is in the belief that a player can raise their value and then get traded, making room for the guy the team wants in the starting line-up.

You're of the opinion cut your losses. I'm of the opinion the Kings are a good team regardless so it's in their best interests long term to start Huerter and trade him by the deadline, potentially for much much more than we think he could be traded for.

That's the only subject here. This isn't a Keon vs Huerter thing.

Huerter has a big enough body of work that teams know what they are getting. Sure maybe he has a hot streak and teams get desperate. But idk.. I just don't think this kinda player is worth too much in today's landscape. He's not worth his contract on the open market. I don't see any realistic path for him to play his way there.

Another pt here. Let's say your theory is correct.. Huerter does play good, the kings are playing good, you really think Monte would mess with that and trade him while the team is rolling? No.. so now you've committed to starting him and moving him to the bench to get ready for the playoffs screws his confidence and he goes into a tailspin.

I heard the same trash last few years. With mitchell, buddy, huerter, Barnes, "we are trying to raise their trade value".. at this point I need one example when that had ever been a reality that paid off in Sacramento.

[OxAndFox]

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

That is the thing, the only area we're not on the same page is in the belief that a player can raise their value and then get traded, making room for the guy the team wants in the starting line-up.

You're of the opinion cut your losses. I'm of the opinion the Kings are a good team regardless so it's in their best interests long term to start Huerter and trade him by the deadline, potentially for much much more than we think he could be traded for.

That's the only subject here. This isn't a Keon vs Huerter thing.

Huerter has a big enough body of work that teams know what they are getting. Sure maybe he has a hot streak and teams get desperate. But idk.. I just don't think this kinda player is worth too much in today's landscape. He's not worth his contract on the open market. I don't see any realistic path for him to play his way there.

Another pt here. Let's say your theory is correct.. Huerter does play good, the kings are playing good, you really think Monte would mess with that and trade him while the team is rolling? No.. so now you've committed to starting him and moving him to the bench to get ready for the playoffs screws his confidence and he goes into a tailspin.

I heard the same trash last few years. With mitchell, buddy, huerter, Barnes, "we are trying to raise their trade value".. at this point I need one example when that had ever been a reality that paid off in Sacramento.

Yes he will. And he would get great value. That's the whole point.

And let's say your theory is correct... The Kings are playing well, Huerter is playing well and rolling and decide to keep Huerter. Why are you against the Kings doing well?

And let's say both are correct in some way. The Pacers aren't shooting the ball well, but Siakam, Walker, Turner, Jackson is more than enough in the big man front and the Kings/Pacers work out a deal of Huerter for Toppin. Does that make the team better than currently constructed? I would say yes, by a decent margin.

[OxAndFox]

Ya I dont know man, we can agree to disagree here. I think Keon did enough to end last year to earn that role. The last 25ish games when he started playing 25+mpg.

Huerter on the season
10ppg
3.5rbs
2.6 assists
44% from the field
36% from 3
-.5 OBPM
-.4 DBPM
-.8 BPM

I just can't look at his body of work and consider him the starter. Not after how Keon ended the year, and what hes doing in summer league right now.

What Keon showed in the play-in game against GS, vs Huerter being unplayable the year before when we faced GS in round 1. That alone is enough for me to make a decision.

Maybe I'm just irrationally high on Keon, but IMO you cant squander what we have here. This is a guy who can be a secondary ball handler, play elite defense, shoot elite from the 3pt line, and IMO has the makings of a guy who can go get a bucket. What is the best case for Huerter, a guy who stretches the floor and plays average-slightly below average defense. Even in your defending Huerter you admit hes not a good defender, just not as bad as hes made out to be.

Go a step further. Our starting lineup features Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, Keegan. 4 of our 5 best offensive players. If we assume shooting wise Huerter = Keon, what else does he bring to that lineup that's more important than Keon's defense?

All things considered Keon is just a better fit for the starting lineup, and Huerter is actually a better fit for the bench. Stretch shooter for Monk, will get easier defensive assignments, can be more of a focal point on offense. I'm just not seeing any argument for starting Huerter other than "increasing his trade value" which I just can't get behind.

That is the thing, the only area we're not on the same page is in the belief that a player can raise their value and then get traded, making room for the guy the team wants in the starting line-up.

You're of the opinion cut your losses. I'm of the opinion the Kings are a good team regardless so it's in their best interests long term to start Huerter and trade him by the deadline, potentially for much much more than we think he could be traded for.

That's the only subject here. This isn't a Keon vs Huerter thing.

Huerter has a big enough body of work that teams know what they are getting. Sure maybe he has a hot streak and teams get desperate. But idk.. I just don't think this kinda player is worth too much in today's landscape. He's not worth his contract on the open market. I don't see any realistic path for him to play his way there.

Another pt here. Let's say your theory is correct.. Huerter does play good, the kings are playing good, you really think Monte would mess with that and trade him while the team is rolling? No.. so now you've committed to starting him and moving him to the bench to get ready for the playoffs screws his confidence and he goes into a tailspin.

I heard the same trash last few years. With mitchell, buddy, huerter, Barnes, "we are trying to raise their trade value".. at this point I need one example when that had ever been a reality that paid off in Sacramento.

But yes. Agree to disagree on this one.

[Lost in LA]

I support the idea of Keon starting and Huerter working as a seventh man scorer. Keon is the only really high level defender in the guard group, and more balance is needed against the league's better guards, of which there are many in the West. DeMar is not a great defender either, and Murray will disappear if he is not seeing the ball and defending the 4 when he needs to expand his role as he gains experience.

Huerter has not done anything to deserve the start, whereas Keon has.

[LightTheBeam]

That is the thing, the only area we're not on the same page is in the belief that a player can raise their value and then get traded, making room for the guy the team wants in the starting line-up.

You're of the opinion cut your losses. I'm of the opinion the Kings are a good team regardless so it's in their best interests long term to start Huerter and trade him by the deadline, potentially for much much more than we think he could be traded for.

That's the only subject here. This isn't a Keon vs Huerter thing.

Huerter has a big enough body of work that teams know what they are getting. Sure maybe he has a hot streak and teams get desperate. But idk.. I just don't think this kinda player is worth too much in today's landscape. He's not worth his contract on the open market. I don't see any realistic path for him to play his way there.

Another pt here. Let's say your theory is correct.. Huerter does play good, the kings are playing good, you really think Monte would mess with that and trade him while the team is rolling? No.. so now you've committed to starting him and moving him to the bench to get ready for the playoffs screws his confidence and he goes into a tailspin.

I heard the same trash last few years. With mitchell, buddy, huerter, Barnes, "we are trying to raise their trade value".. at this point I need one example when that had ever been a reality that paid off in Sacramento.

Yes he will. And he would get great value. That's the whole point.

And let's say your theory is correct... The Kings are playing well, Huerter is playing well and rolling and decide to keep Huerter. Why are you against the Kings doing well?

And let's say both are correct in some way. The Pacers aren't shooting the ball well, but Siakam, Walker, Turner, Jackson is more than enough in the big man front and the Kings/Pacers work out a deal of Huerter for Toppin. Does that make the team better than currently constructed? I would say yes, by a decent margin.

I'm not against them playing well. I'm against pretending that Huerter can hang with starting level offenses. And I don't want a repeat of GS where he was getting switched on and abused.

I think you are way to optimistic my man lol. I need a track record to believe things will happen, Montes track record suggests the opposite. Therefore I'm going to be skeptical until I see it.

And even in the world where Huerter is shooting 50% from 3, Indiana doesn't consider that lol. They have nesmith, sheppard, mathurin, nembhard, Furphy all at that same spot.

I've spent hours looking for a fit. When it's this hard to place one, it's because the player just isn't that good ;(

[Jkam31]

I support the idea of Keon starting and Huerter working as a seventh man scorer. Keon is the only really high level defender in the guard group, and more balance is needed against the league's better guards, of which there are many in the West. DeMar is not a great defender either, and Murray will disappear if he is not seeing the ball and defending the 4 when he needs to expand his role as he gains experience.

Huerter has not done anything to deserve the start, whereas Keon has.

This shouldn’t even be discussed to be honest ellis starts I don’t care if it hurts monk/huerter feelings

Monk/huerter off the bench is gonna be explosive defense really doesn’t matter on the second unit as much as well. Hopefully we can trade Luke’s and a pick for Stewart we need a big and Stewart can defend centers/big wings