Darrell Arthur....a King?

[deNIEd]

The way I see it.

Alexander will be a legitimate NBA starter.
Westbrook good very well be a borderline star, but most likely a starter.

Speights and Arthur are borderline starters, could become bench players, but could be rotational guys (Haslem type player).

Give me the sure things.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Alexander isn't a sure fire anything in my opnion. He's definetly being blown way out of proportion the last few weeks.

[Dustin5566]

I guess I could live with Arthur, a couple weeks ago the guyu I wanted was Speights because I think they need a strong, physical power forward. However, the more I read about Speights and his lack of a work ethic the more I was turned off.

I really started to like Westbrook, but he will be gone and D.J will be picked at the latest 11.

How about Randolph if he slips? Athletic with a high ceiling, could be an odom/bosh type of player! But could also be the next marcus fizer.

[Krle_12]

Links to posts on another forum are hardly credible.

I find them more credible than burrying head in the sand and not believing anything that challenges your way of thinking

[Ballings7]

Alexander will be a legitimate NBA starter.

I don't think you've seen or read enough on Alexander to say that, because it goes against what's there.

Will be a legit starter? No, not at all, because of the significant questionability whether he'll be able to play SF (which from all that I've read, and to a lesser degree seen, is not favoring) in the NBA. Will be too small to play PF regardless, unless it's on a small-ball, running system based team. Which gets you success, but only a limited amount of it.

The more favorable scenrario right now and possibly for the long-term, is him being a 6th man hybrid foward off the bench. Which isn't bad at all, it's still turning out well and being a significant player.

He has to prove in the NBA he can be consistently effective as a SF. Defensive quickness is what could well be the determining factor there, as well as maybe not developing enough into a 3PT threat (which he isn't one at this point).

Generally (putting the speed-ball PF play aside), he's either a SF, or he's a 6th man unique big foward.

Speights and Arthur are borderline starters, could become bench players, but could be rotational guys (Haslem type player).

With us, I don't know how long Arthur would start, I think he would for some time at least, as a back-up PF in general, he would be great, and one of the best in the league, 6th man level. I think long-term he may be a better starter with a different kind of big man, but time will tell that. Regardless, starting or off the bench, he's going to be an above-average player with his ability on both sides of the ball. I'll gladly take that turn out at #12, in this draft. Especially with how Arthur would improve our team in various ways where we have been and are, weak. Picking Arthur, we would get significantly better as a team because of the improvement in certain areas.

[OGSactownballer]

Alexander will be a legitimate NBA starter.

I don't think you've seen or read enough on Alexander to say that, because it goes against what's there.

Will be a legit starter? No, not at all, because of the significant questionability whether he'll be able to play SF (which from all that I've read, and to a lesser degree seen, is not favoring) in the NBA. Will be too small to play PF regardless, unless it's on a small-ball, running system based team. Which gets you success, but only a limited amount of it.

The more favorable scenrario right now and possibly for the long-term, is him being a 6th man hybrid foward off the bench. Which isn't bad at all, it's still turning out well and being a significant player.

He has to prove in the NBA he can be consistently effective as a SF. Defensive quickness is what could well be the determining factor there, as well as maybe not developing enough into a 3PT threat (which he isn't one at this point).

Generally (putting the speed-ball PF play aside), he's either a SF, or he's a 6th man unique big foward.

Speights and Arthur are borderline starters, could become bench players, but could be rotational guys (Haslem type player).

With us, I don't know how long Arthur would start, I think he would for some time at least, as a back-up PF in general, he would be great, and one of the best in the league, 6th man level. I think long-term he may be a better starter with a different kind of big man, but time will tell that. Regardless, starting or off the bench, he's going to be an above-average player with his ability on both sides of the ball. I'll gladly take that turn out at #12, in this draft. Especially with how Arthur would improve our team in various ways where we have been and are, weak. Picking Arthur, we would get significantly better as a team because of the improvement in certain areas.

I would like to see what people said about Kevin Martin before his draft. I would venture to believe that NBA starter/soon-to-be All-Star at SG were not in the reports.

[Ballings7]

I don't think that's a credible comparison, assuming that's in reference to Alexander and Kevin, for NBA starter. Two completely different prospects coming into the NBA, and Kevin had more room to become one.

I don't care if Alexander couldn't be a starter on a traditional-style NBA team - because he'd still be a nice player as a 6th man, speciality starter, small-ball line-up PF.

[_SRV_]

Why is Arthur fit for traditional PF and Alexander not When they are very close physically and athletically? And why can't he be a SF? his profile is similar to Thaddeus Young from the Sixers.

[Ballings7]

Because they're just not if you've seen some games of both, or at least read decent reports/out-looks on them. Arthur is definitely a PF and only a PF (or center when going small, of course), and Alexander, you can't justify putting him primarily, starting, at either foward spot yet, generally. That being because of his defensive quickness question and issue guarding SFs in the NBA, lacking 3PT range as a whole (11/40 3P in college) and being a question if he'll ever be a respectable threat, and at PF I doubt he'll be big enough overall (at least on a convential team).

Myself, that doesn't matter to me because he's still going to be a legit player off the bench.

Actually, poster ss1986v2 did a good write-up about Alexander in the NBA, I can look for it, or you can go ask about Alexander on the draft board.

[_SRV_]

DraftExpress the consensus top scouting site says:

Joe Alexander strength:
Size
• Frame
• Length
• Athleticism

Darrel Arthur strength:
Athleticism

Darrel Arthur weakness:
• Ball-handling/Perimeter shooting polish
• Finishing strong/Not fading away
• Strength

So according to draftexpress:
Joe Alexander is strong, athletic and long
Darell Arthur is athletic, not strong and has no perimeter skills and weak finisher under the basket.

And I ask again, why is Arthur more fitting for the PF than Joe Alexander?

[Ballings7]

Going off what I've seen, Arthur actually does have perimeter skills. His mid-range shot is decent, but can and should improve that, his turn-around jumpshot is above-average, isn't a bad passer, and can defend out on the perimeter in certain game to game situations. I also wouldn't say he's really a weak finisher under the basket.

Arthur was a PF in college and will be in the NBA. I can't explain it really in-depth for you, it's just from watching and reading about him significantly, he's a PF. Arthur, like any player, is going to get stronger and add mass to his frame.

Everybody else feels the same about Arthur being a PF in general.

I don't see Alexander being a regular starting PF in the NBA, considering his physical appearance, my and others out-look on him, and his game. Whereas Arthur's combination of size, athleticism, ability on both ends, and body maturation, will allow him to be a starting PF (for how long that depends).

Also I think those strengths for Alexander are under the case of him being more of a SF because of his game and size for the time being, and when that section, page was made.

Arthur's definitely a PF, Alexander is definitely a foward, but what will he be more of, at least? Can't quite say that right now.

DX lists Arthur as a PF in current, NBA, and possible.

DX lists Alexander currently as a SF/PF, NBA SF (again, I think because of going off his physical appearance and how he played in college), and possible SF/PF. Can't quite put him at either position.

I think you probably have to gain a lot more familarity with both players, from then and for how you feel about the future.

When I've seen Alexander play (5 times, and various highlights), I don't come away with the impression, that he's a SF or PF. Rather a big athletic foward who has to continue to mold his game to dicate what kind of foward he'll be... more of a SF, more of a PF, or just a tweener? Most importantly, will he be quick enough or big enough to start at SF or PF, respectively? I can't legitimately say whether he'll be a SF or PF, from what I've gathered. I don't know if anybody else can, either. But there are problems and questions present, relating to being either a SF or PF, and starting. Right now, to take a position, I'm thinking he's a tweener foward who's going to better off the bench (like Al Harrington and Hakim Warrick have proven to be).

When I've seen Arthur, consistently, since January 2007, I came in and came away knowing Arthur is a tradtional style of PF.

[BMiller52]

DraftExpress the consensus top scouting site says:

Joe Alexander strength:
Size
• Frame
• Length
• Athleticism

Darrel Arthur strength:
Athleticism

Darrel Arthur weakness:
• Ball-handling/Perimeter shooting polish
• Finishing strong/Not fading away
• Strength

So according to draftexpress:
Joe Alexander is strong, athletic and long
Darell Arthur is athletic, not strong and has no perimeter skills and weak finisher under the basket.

And I ask again, why is Arthur more fitting for the PF than Joe Alexander?

Then draft express is wrong lol. I've watched both players and I can safely say Arthur is a PF for sure. He's actually a good shooter and has a VERY good post game, as well as having just as much length as Alexander and 1 more inch of standing reach. He has just as much athleticism(go look up his youtube highlites if you want) as Alexander. He's a better offensive player.

Alexander can't handle the ball and he's a worse rebounder than Arthur. Alexander gets the same/less RPG(a bit less I think) in 31 MPG, Arthur got those 6-7 rebounds playing 23 MPG on a team with better rebounders. Arthur got .02 less of a blocked shot, but again that was in 8 less minutes. Arthur consistently went up against good PFs and generally played well against them. Vs Joseph Jones+DeAndre Jordan he had a 16/9 game, he had no trouble scoring on Memphis's frontline of Dorsey+Dozier(which gave K. Love a lot of problems), he shut down Tyler Hansbrough, and also had other decent-good results vs good PFs.

Alexander did pick up his rebounding during the tournament but in each game he played over 30 minutes and in 1 he played all 40. He didn't score particularly well in any of the tournament games like people say he did(he consistently did badly from the field and had a hard time scoring on Josh Duncan who is not exactly a defensive terror). He also had some decent-good games vs louisville, georgetown, etc. but never really did a great job rebounding vs them(IIRC he DID do a nice job rebounding vs UConn though).

If Arthur plays the same minutes that Alexander does he probably averages 8-9 rebounds and he probably averages 2+ blocks. That's playing on a better team fighting with other big men(Jackson and 7 footer Kaun, not to mention Aldrich who had some bright spots towards the end of the year for KU) for those rebounds.

I have watched pretty much every nationally televised KU game during the last 2 years, I can pretty much break down Arthur's game for you if you want(he did have consistency issues tho I'll give a critic that) bro.

I'm not saying Alexander won't be good but right now I think a lot of it is potential. DArthur has a better post game, mid range J, and plays better D. Joe is mainly a potential guy IMO because of his athleticism, and the thing is before the combine he was thought of as a 20-30 area guy. After he puts up real good numbers he's thought of as a top 10 pick. He's definitely not a polished player. His skillset itself is the skillset of a tweener. Not a good enough shooter/ball handler for a SF, not a good enough rebounder/post scorer for a PF. He could be a Shawn Marion type for someone and I think that's where a lot of the hype from like ESPN comes from, because Marion is definitely a good player after all. I'm just not sure that type of player wins you anything, because Marion basically gets empty points, his rebounds don't come battling the big guys like Duncan, a lot of them are offensive putbacks off of a missed 3 pointer where he kinda sneaks in there, etc.

Arthur is a lot bouncier and has a stronger base. He plays better post D and he is a lot like Justin Williams on D(he actually knows what he's doing though, he has much better awareness because he's an intelligent player). He might not be the biggest, but height wise he's about the same as Justin was or Josh Smith is right now. He has the same standing reach as Al Horford and he is a good athlete. Offensively he sets good screens, he's good at rolling to the basket, he's got a very nice mid range J(even took a couple college 3s because his mid range J is so good), he's got a good post game and can score with either hand, he doesn't finish softly either. When he is by the basket you know he is going to dunk it. He can take bigger guys off the dribble also, a lot like a Josh Smith can.

Hope that helps

[BMiller52]

DraftExpress the consensus top scouting site says:

Joe Alexander strength:
Size
• Frame
• Length
• Athleticism

Darrel Arthur strength:
Athleticism

Darrel Arthur weakness:
• Ball-handling/Perimeter shooting polish
• Finishing strong/Not fading away
• Strength

So according to draftexpress:
Joe Alexander is strong, athletic and long
Darell Arthur is athletic, not strong and has no perimeter skills and weak finisher under the basket.

And I ask again, why is Arthur more fitting for the PF than Joe Alexander?

Then draft express is wrong lol. I've watched both players and I can safely say Arthur is a PF for sure. He's actually a good shooter and has a VERY good post game, as well as having just as much length as Alexander and 1 more inch of standing reach. He has just as much athleticism(go look up his youtube highlites if you want) as Alexander. He's a better offensive player.

Alexander can't handle the ball and he's a worse rebounder than Arthur. Alexander gets the same/less RPG(a bit less I think) in 31 MPG, Arthur got those 6-7 rebounds playing 23 MPG on a team with better rebounders. Arthur got .02 less of a blocked shot, but again that was in 8 less minutes. Arthur consistently went up against good PFs and generally played well against them. Vs Joseph Jones+DeAndre Jordan he had a 16/9 game, he had no trouble scoring on Memphis's frontline of Dorsey+Dozier(which gave K. Love a lot of problems), he shut down Tyler Hansbrough, and also had other decent-good results vs good PFs.

Alexander did pick up his rebounding during the tournament but in each game he played over 30 minutes and in 1 he played all 40. He didn't score particularly well in any of the tournament games like people say he did(he consistently did badly from the field and had a hard time scoring on Josh Duncan who is not exactly a defensive terror). He also had some decent-good games vs louisville, georgetown, etc. but never really did a great job rebounding vs them(IIRC he DID do a nice job rebounding vs UConn though).

If Arthur plays the same minutes that Alexander does he probably averages 8-9 rebounds and he probably averages 2+ blocks. That's playing on a better team fighting with other big men(Jackson and 7 footer Kaun, not to mention Aldrich who had some bright spots towards the end of the year for KU) for those rebounds.

I have watched pretty much every nationally televised KU game during the last 2 years, I can pretty much break down Arthur's game for you if you want(he did have consistency issues tho I'll give a critic that) bro.

I'm not saying Alexander won't be good but right now I think a lot of it is potential. DArthur has a better post game, mid range J, and plays better D. Joe is mainly a potential guy IMO because of his athleticism, and the thing is before the combine he was thought of as a 20-30 area guy. After he puts up real good numbers he's thought of as a top 10 pick. He's definitely not a polished player. His skillset itself is the skillset of a tweener. Not a good enough shooter/ball handler for a SF, not a good enough rebounder/post scorer for a PF. He could be a Shawn Marion type for someone and I think that's where a lot of the hype from like ESPN comes from, because Marion is definitely a good player after all. I'm just not sure that type of player wins you anything, because Marion basically gets empty points, his rebounds don't come battling the big guys like Duncan, a lot of them are offensive putbacks off of a missed 3 pointer where he kinda sneaks in there, etc.

Arthur is a lot bouncier and has a stronger base. He plays better post D and he is a lot like Justin Williams on D(he actually knows what he's doing though, he has much better awareness because he's an intelligent player). He might not be the biggest, but height wise he's about the same as Justin was or Josh Smith is right now. He has the same standing reach as Al Horford and he is a good athlete. Offensively he sets good screens, he's good at rolling to the basket, he's got a very nice mid range J(even took a couple college 3s because his mid range J is so good), he's got a good post game and can score with either hand, he doesn't finish softly either. When he is by the basket you know he is going to dunk it. He can take bigger guys off the dribble also, a lot like a Josh Smith can.

Hope that helps

[_SRV_]

Ballings
I've never watched Alexander, I was actually amazed to learn he is white, and more amazed when I watched his youtube highlights, and I watched a grand total of one game of Arthur.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I really don't know, but you claim that from what you read you see a PF in Arthur and a SF in Alexander, I don't read that from draft express, which is according to many the best draft site, in fact what I read there favours Alexander for both forward positions.

BMiller:
Thanks for the in depth analysis

[Ballings7]

I've never watched Alexander, I was actually amazed to learn he is white, and more amazed when I watched his youtube highlights, and I watched a grand total of one game of Arthur.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I really don't know, but you claim that from what you read you see a PF in Arthur and a SF in Alexander, I don't read that from draft express, which is according to many the best draft site, in fact what I read there favours Alexander for both forward positions.

That's your problem here, like I said, you don't have much familarity with either player. If you're interested in more, go get more around the 'net. I posted a link to where you can watch full games online from the tournament in one of the draft threads here.

I never said I see Alexander as a SF, in the NBA. So far, he's played more like a SF, yes. But in the NBA it is not clear at all of his position, or if he'll actually have any definition because of the issues and questions that are present relating to that. Which on a conventially-built team, would force him to the bench.

Arthur's a PF, no doubt about it. Anybody who thinks he's a SF or a combo foward are just off.

Alexander is a big foward who has played more like a SF, with no defined position for the NBA.

I don't know if you missed my edit, but aside from reading, I have also seen enough of each player where I'm familiar with their games. Arthur moreso than Alexander.

[BMiller52]

I've never watched Alexander, I was actually amazed to learn he is white, and more amazed when I watched his youtube highlights, and I watched a grand total of one game of Arthur.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I really don't know, but you claim that from what you read you see a PF in Arthur and a SF in Alexander, I don't read that from draft express, which is according to many the best draft site, in fact what I read there favours Alexander for both forward positions.

Eh to be honest I think Alexander will go higher but I think Arthur will be the better player. I think Milwaukee takes Alexander at 8 and I guess he would fit well with them since they need an athletic and tough small forward to go with Yi and Bogut.

Arthur is a more natural scorer, his only problems were that his team was so talented he hardly got the ball and his intensity drifts a bit at times. But he called for the ball in the post all the time, when he got it he usually scored, but they played with 3 guards(Chalmers/Russ Robinson/Brandon Rush) and all those guys were good players, 2 are first rounders. THen you add Darnell Jackson who's a 2nd rounder and that is a lot of talent. If you can, go watch the national championship game again where Arthur played very well vs a very tough front line.

I know draft express is considered to be really good, I think they are good, but I disagree with them on a few things at the same time. I've watched Arthur probably 20-30 times in the last 2 years. I saw him play vs Durant in his freshman year, I saw him go vs Horford and Noah in that year and do quite well, I've seen him go up against Memphis this year, I've seen him do quite well defensively vs Tyler Hansbrough, I've seen him do a lot of things so I know what he can do. Ability is not his issue, it's consistency(but in college big men hardly ever see the ball anyway).

I've seen Joe Alexander 5-10 times, probably 7 or 8. I saw him play vs georgetown, vs duke and arizona in the tournament(probably the only time I was mad Duke lost since I had them going to the sweet 16 in my tournament bracket), and vs xavier. I watched a couple other WVU games in the last year or 2 but to be honest before earlier this year I hadn't really made it an effort to pay special attention to him because he wasn't on anyone's draft radar. Then he has a decent end to his season and people think he's a 1st rounder, then after that he has a ridiculously good combine. He definitely has a lot more skills to work on than Arthur though.

edit: No problem also, if you have any questions about a player you might not have gotten to watch much of just ask. I watched more college basketball last year than I had in the last 4 or 5 years before that, so my mind at the moment is like a draft encyclopedia.

[Ballings7]

I could have supplied more information about Arthur, but honestly I'm just not up for it (tired, and needing to go to bed quite soon). So kept it pretty simple.

Good job from what I've skimmed, BMiller.

Actually, poster ss1986v2 did a good write-up about Alexander in the NBA

To follow-up on that...

i have issues with alexander. he has no range outside of 18 ft or so (11/40 from the college 3 this year). while a gifted athlete, his body type lends itself to a high center of gravity and low foot speed. those things usually lead to poor perimeter defense against smaller, quicker players (which he is very likely to find from nba small forwards). i dont hate alexander, and i think he would make a fine pick, but he isnt one of my favorite players.
theres still a fair bit of unknown about the kid, mainly because hes been such a late bloomer. didnt start playing organized ball until his junior year of high school where he couldnt get off the bench, and averaged about 1 point in about 3 minutes per game his freshman year. so in that respect, there is a bit of upside to him than others in his class.

this summer, he put on a good bit of weight (was in the 200-210 lbs range, now is around 230 lbs). he has a rather high center of gravity, which is usually a bad thing when it comes to perimeter defense (harder to get into a lower defensive stance). add in his iffy lateral quickness, and you see why he gets beat by smaller, quicker players. and with his build, there are a lot of nba small forwards that are going to fit into that "smaller, quicker" category. he has shown himself to be a very good athlete though, so its not like he would be a liability out there. maybe just not as good as some would like.

he has shown a very good mid-range game, and some ability to operate on the low block, where he may be able to punish those smaller, quicker players. he has a great work ethic, and while the game doesnt come naturally to him like so many other touted prospects, he has worked hard every step of the way to get where he is now.

hes a very intriguing prospect, and because of that, i dont even think hes on the board when we pick. and if he was, id have no problem with taking him. i just have a somewhat rigid view of what i want out of a wing in this draft, with 3pt range and man-to-man defense being two of the most important pieces. and alexander seems to be very lacking in one, and has serious questions in the other.

That reflects things I've read and seen since I myself found out about him, and to what I've been talking about lately on Alexander with the concerns and with his positives. I only really found out about him from the WVU elimination game, and have seen some more games of him since, and read up on him more.

[SacKingZZZ]

Because they're just not if you've seen some games of both, or at least read decent reports/out-looks on them. Arthur is definitely a PF and only a PF (or center when going small, of course), and Alexander, you can't justify putting him primarily, starting, at either foward spot yet, generally. That being because of his defensive quickness question and issue guarding SFs in the NBA, lacking 3PT range as a whole (11/40 3P in college) and being a question if he'll ever be a respectable threat, and at PF I doubt he'll be big enough overall (at least on a convential team).

Myself, that doesn't matter to me because he's still going to be a legit player off the bench.

Actually, poster ss1986v2 did a good write-up about Alexander in the NBA, I can look for it, or you can go ask about Alexander on the draft board.

Yeah, pretty much. There is no question what one or the other is, size really has nothing to do with it. Arthur plays like a PF because he lacks the skill needed to play on the wing and has the physicalilty needed for the spot, and Alexander plays like a wing player.

[ICMTM]

I heard on 1320 (ESPN Radio) That Arthur hurt his back and didn't hire an agent. He canceled his workouts because of the back, and since he didn't have an agent he didn't go about scheduling future workouts properly.

[pillwenney]

The more I think about it, the more I like Arthur as a pick for us. I think he has a lot of untapped abilities. Now I say "abilities" instead of "potential" because I think there are a lot of things that he can already do that weren't on full display at Kansas. He has shown some great passing abilities in certain situations--he's just not great at passing out of the post yet. His rebounding will get better, and isn't as bad as it would otherwise seem anyway. His mid-range shot looks like it can be consistent, he is pretty well-proven as a defender (being foul-prone certainly isn't something to ignore, but it's also not uncommon for young players), and it seems that more than anything he just had a problem with consistency. If he can continue to work on being more consistent, I think a lot of the supposed issues with him won't be so apparent.