2023-24 General Thread

[Lost in LA]

Boston has shown the latest variation of the success formula, a lttle different from the Golden State team of about 6-8 years ago.

1. Have 5-7 players who can shoot if needed, and share the ball naturally to get the ball in the player's hands who has the best "look"
2. Have 5-7 players who are all disciplined defenders who can switch as needed
3. The concept of team is far more important than the individual's needs for Stats or All Star possibilities
4. Calmness under pressure and never resort to just chucking up threes

The Kings are about 4 players and a coach from this level.

because the team that's currently winning the finals presents the only possible model of a team that could win the finals, obviously

A bit deeper than that, the Celtics players really are interchangeable role wise, 1-8, and play for each other and completely buy into the coach's philosophy. They may not have the best individual players, in fact Tatum has not dominated stats wise, but the team ethic is primary.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Boston has shown the latest variation of the success formula, a lttle different from the Golden State team of about 6-8 years ago.

1. Have 5-7 players who can shoot if needed, and share the ball naturally to get the ball in the player's hands who has the best "look"
2. Have 5-7 players who are all disciplined defenders who can switch as needed
3. The concept of team is far more important than the individual's needs for Stats or All Star possibilities
4. Calmness under pressure and never resort to just chucking up threes

The Kings are about 4 players and a coach from this level.

there are different ways to skin a cat. The Celtics benefitted by getting two top 3 picks in back to back drafts while also having a veteran laden team that afforded them the ability to develop without much pressure and they drafted two of the eventual best two-way wings in the league. Once you have two guys like that it's pretty easy to build around them. Our two top guys are very flawed in comparison and it's harder to build around them as well. We've seemed to be trying to emulate the Nuggets with an offense-first center that the offense can flow through that plays a two-man game with his scoring point guard, surrounded by 3 and D players. Well, we've got the big and the guard and one decent 3 and D in Murray and a half-way decent one in Barnes. We really just need another at the 2 and an upgrade over Barnes. With the #13 pick, or by trading back, we should be able to address one of those needs. We just need to figure out a way to address them both and that's the hard part.

[OxAndFox]

If the Nuggets are the blueprint Monte wants to copy then the Kings are quite close. From their championship squad.
Sabonis - Jokic
? - Gordon
Murray - Porter Jr
KCP - Keon
Fox - Murray
? - Brown
Lyles - Green
? - Braun

Now let's put it in context of their PO rotation from the championship.
Jokic - 39.5mpg
Gordon - 35.7mpg
Porter Jr - 32.7mpg
KCP - 33.6mpg
Murray - 40mpg
Brown - 26.5mpg
Green - 17.2mpg
Braun - 13mpg

[OxAndFox]

So potentially that's 3 spots the Kings need to fill out with let's just say, #13, Barnes, Huerter, Davion, Sasha, Duarte.

IMO Colby could be Braun. He needs to get stronger, but he's that utility knife.

The biggest question is, who is Aaron Gordon for the Kings. Don't forget, he was 25 when the Nuggets traded for him.
That's the biggest acquisition the Kings need to make. Everyone here knows it and it's what we've been trying to look for, but maybe it's not someone that SHOULD jump right out to you.

[OxAndFox]

To me if you follow that Denver lead, you look around the 2017-2019 drafts.
2017 - Isaac, John Collins, OG, Kuzma
2018 - WCJ, Mo Bamba, Robert Williams
2019 - Deandre Hunter, Rui, PJ Washington, Brandon Clarke

2020 - Pat Williams (too small??), Toppin, Jalen Smith, BeefStew, Bey

[OxAndFox]

I tried to keep it pretty wide open. Some might have the opinion that player X is a better defender etc than what they've shown etc.
Of these I am really intrigued by:
Obi Toppin - Thought he played decent D when called upon for the Pacers in the POs. Spaces the floor. In the perfect age range and the only question is how do the Kings acquire him.
WCJ - He gives me Gordon vibes. Perfect age range and seems like he has accepted the fact he isn't an offensive star in the NBA. Spaces the floor and has rim protection ability.
Rui - Isn't a rim protector, but his size is in the mould of Gordon. Quick enough, but strong as a bull. His 3pt shooting improved too and is a mid range assasin.
Collins - For some reason I've always been intrigued by JC. I think he and Sabonis would be fun to watch together if the Kings would just employ an offense that has a guy in the dunkers spot occasionally. This would also not allow as many players to dig down on Sabonis.

[OxAndFox]

OK. After lucking out with Obi Toppin as a fit. I am onto the next! It just so happens to be his teammate Jalen Smith.
He has been intriguing to me since Phoenix drafting him.

Do you jump on a 22yo that has shown flashes and sign him to a multi year deal when he hasn't warranted it to get the best of it at the end of the contract?
The best teams are going to take punts like this and at the end of it you turn around and look to see, how did they get him for that price!
I see that with Smith. Just give him the full MLE and be done with it. Does he get offers more than that from cap teams?
If I were Detroit I certainly would give him a decent deal. Wouldn't think twice at the same number as Stewart.
If I were the Spurs, I would love to match he and Wemby up, it would be a nightmare for teams.

I know someone who loves per 36 stats that would be salivating at Smith. Whatya say Boogie. Realistic, not the right target, unrealistic due to money?

20/11/2
1.3 blks & hits the 3 at a decent clip for a big so he not only spaces the floor he protects the rim. Also plays backup 5.

[OxAndFox]

And I will say, you still draft Ware and have the perfect complimentary pieces for Sabonis.

[FarBeyondDriven]

So potentially that's 3 spots the Kings need to fill out with let's just say, #13, Barnes, Huerter, Davion, Sasha, Duarte.

IMO Colby could be Braun. He needs to get stronger, but he's that utility knife.

The biggest question is, who is Aaron Gordon for the Kings. Don't forget, he was 25 when the Nuggets traded for him.
That's the biggest acquisition the Kings need to make. Everyone here knows it and it's what we've been trying to look for, but maybe it's not someone that SHOULD jump right out to you.

I wish there was a market for Huerter and Barnes. I want them both gone

[LightTheBeam]

So potentially that's 3 spots the Kings need to fill out with let's just say, #13, Barnes, Huerter, Davion, Sasha, Duarte.

IMO Colby could be Braun. He needs to get stronger, but he's that utility knife.

The biggest question is, who is Aaron Gordon for the Kings. Don't forget, he was 25 when the Nuggets traded for him.
That's the biggest acquisition the Kings need to make. Everyone here knows it and it's what we've been trying to look for, but maybe it's not someone that SHOULD jump right out to you.

I wish there was a market for Huerter and Barnes. I want them both gone

I think there will be.

Huerter is a sell low, but some team will take a chance he bounces back, he's young and can shoot.

Also, while neither is a good defender, I've said for a long time on a team with rim protection they would be fine. You can also mask one of them much easier, when huerter was out and keon inserted we became a really good defensive team. It's just hard to mask both when you have zero rim protection behind them.

Now I don't think they are worth a ton, but i think some teams will value them neutral - slightly positive.

[LightTheBeam]

Twitter convo shifted to rumors about LaVine and Caruso.

If that gets done my guess is they know for sure Monk is not coming back. I mean...

Assuming it doesn't cost the #13 pick. Barnes, Huerter, Duarte, Sasha for LaVine, Caruso.

We then have to fill another forward slot with the MLE. I assume Tobias and Toppin will cost more than that. Which leaves DJJ, Kyle Anderson, and Naji Marshall as options. Lets go with Anderson for the sake of it.


Fox - LaVine - Keegan - Lyles - Sabonis
Mitchell - Keon - Caruso - Anderson - #13

Or you commit to playing small with Caruso/Keon in place of Lyles. Ideally you draft at #13 to fill that spot long term.

LaVine - 43 Million
Sabonis - 40
Fox - 35
MLE - 14?
Caruso - 10
Keegan - 8.8
Lyles - 8
Davion - 6.5
#13 - 4.7
Keon - 2.1

That team would be 175+ million. With raises coming for Keegan, Caruso, Fox, Keon. I don't see ownership spending that money. LaVine isn't the direction I want to go but I think that team is better than what we have now. Fox-Keon-Caruso-Keegan lineups would be killer defensively.

[BoogieTime]

Twitter convo shifted to rumors about LaVine and Caruso.

If that gets done my guess is they know for sure Monk is not coming back. I mean...

Assuming it doesn't cost the #13 pick. Barnes, Huerter, Duarte, Sasha for LaVine, Caruso.

We then have to fill another forward slot with the MLE. I assume Tobias and Toppin will cost more than that. Which leaves DJJ, Kyle Anderson, and Naji Marshall as options. Lets go with Anderson for the sake of it.


Fox - LaVine - Keegan - Lyles - Sabonis
Mitchell - Keon - Caruso - Anderson - #13

Or you commit to playing small with Caruso/Keon in place of Lyles. Ideally you draft at #13 to fill that spot long term.

LaVine - 43 Million
Sabonis - 40
Fox - 35
MLE - 14?
Caruso - 10
Keegan - 8.8
Lyles - 8
Davion - 6.5
#13 - 4.7
Keon - 2.1

That team would be 175+ million. With raises coming for Keegan, Caruso, Fox, Keon. I don't see ownership spending that money. LaVine isn't the direction I want to go but I think that team is better than what we have now. Fox-Keon-Caruso-Keegan lineups would be killer defensively.

I heard we were also chasing Kuzma (what’s new)..

As for Lavine not sure what the trade would be. Those players, and our roster sans Sabonis/Fox/Keegan/Ellis won’t get it done for Chicago (they need some compensation than not good players), and I’m not sure about spending draft compensation for him. They would just sit on him than take Huerter/Barnes etc with Caruso too that definitely is involving 13 or other picks.

I get the feeling we are chasing whatever we can, and these are the only fish available. I really don’t think we are drafting this year at all

[LightTheBeam]

Twitter convo shifted to rumors about LaVine and Caruso.

If that gets done my guess is they know for sure Monk is not coming back. I mean...

Assuming it doesn't cost the #13 pick. Barnes, Huerter, Duarte, Sasha for LaVine, Caruso.

We then have to fill another forward slot with the MLE. I assume Tobias and Toppin will cost more than that. Which leaves DJJ, Kyle Anderson, and Naji Marshall as options. Lets go with Anderson for the sake of it.


Fox - LaVine - Keegan - Lyles - Sabonis
Mitchell - Keon - Caruso - Anderson - #13

Or you commit to playing small with Caruso/Keon in place of Lyles. Ideally you draft at #13 to fill that spot long term.

LaVine - 43 Million
Sabonis - 40
Fox - 35
MLE - 14?
Caruso - 10
Keegan - 8.8
Lyles - 8
Davion - 6.5
#13 - 4.7
Keon - 2.1

That team would be 175+ million. With raises coming for Keegan, Caruso, Fox, Keon. I don't see ownership spending that money. LaVine isn't the direction I want to go but I think that team is better than what we have now. Fox-Keon-Caruso-Keegan lineups would be killer defensively.

I heard we were also chasing Kuzma (what’s new)..

As for Lavine not sure what the trade would be. Those players, and our roster sans Sabonis/Fox/Keegan/Ellis won’t get it done for Chicago (they need some compensation than not good players), and I’m not sure about spending draft compensation for him. They would just sit on him than take Huerter/Barnes etc with Caruso too that definitely is involving 13 or other picks.

I get the feeling we are chasing whatever we can, and these are the only fish available. I really don’t think we are drafting this year at all

Well that's the reality of the league.

When the NBA went to this watered down play-in format + increased lotto structure it gave teams incentive to be mediocre (others may argue it created more parity). Less teams are selling in general. So realistically looking at the market you will see some of the same names over and over. Grant, Kuzma, LaVine, Dejounte, Ingram and that's really it. Hope that Lauri/Bridges shake free, but even those teams seem committed to keeping those guys.

As for LaVine. I really don't think they are going to get any real compensation. They were begging teams to take him last year and nobody wanted him, then he got injured again. He has 3/138 left on his deal, absolutely no way he would come close to that in FA, closer to 3/90. Breaking him down into players that can help them win + be much easier contracts to flip later is enough IMO.

I'd prefer Kuzma over all the mediocre options. Can at least see a path to him fitting and his contract isn't a killer.

[OxAndFox]

Twitter convo shifted to rumors about LaVine and Caruso.

If that gets done my guess is they know for sure Monk is not coming back. I mean...

Assuming it doesn't cost the #13 pick. Barnes, Huerter, Duarte, Sasha for LaVine, Caruso.

We then have to fill another forward slot with the MLE. I assume Tobias and Toppin will cost more than that. Which leaves DJJ, Kyle Anderson, and Naji Marshall as options. Lets go with Anderson for the sake of it.


Fox - LaVine - Keegan - Lyles - Sabonis
Mitchell - Keon - Caruso - Anderson - #13

Or you commit to playing small with Caruso/Keon in place of Lyles. Ideally you draft at #13 to fill that spot long term.

LaVine - 43 Million
Sabonis - 40
Fox - 35
MLE - 14?
Caruso - 10
Keegan - 8.8
Lyles - 8
Davion - 6.5
#13 - 4.7
Keon - 2.1

That team would be 175+ million. With raises coming for Keegan, Caruso, Fox, Keon. I don't see ownership spending that money. LaVine isn't the direction I want to go but I think that team is better than what we have now. Fox-Keon-Caruso-Keegan lineups would be killer defensively.

I wouldn't be completely against it. I don't see the Bulls adding Caruso though. Taking him out and even putting in Marshall with the MLE would be good.
Personally, I would still draft Ware @ #13 as the eventual starting PF, but it would be great to see Lyles get an opportunity to play 26-28mpg. He might just become a valuable trade chip at the deadline.

[KF10]

Just bring in both Kuzma & Lavine/Caruso.

Re-emphasize the offensive principles during Brown’s first year as the Kings HC.

This team isn’t equipped to play defense at a high level. They don’t have the right personnel to do it.

Stop pushing the square peg into the round hole. Maximize the team’s main strengths — offensive firepower.

Fox
Lavine
Keegan
Kuzma
Sabonis

Defense will not be at par but offensively? This lineup will blow teams up on a regular basis.

[LightTheBeam]

Just bring in both Kuzma & Lavine/Caruso.

Re-emphasize the offensive principles during Brown’s first year as the Kings HC.

This team isn’t equipped to play defense at a high level. They don’t have the right personnel to do it.

Stop pushing the square peg into the round hole. Maximize the team’s main strengths — offensive firepower.

Fox
Lavine
Keegan
Kuzma
Sabonis

Defense will not be at par but offensively? This lineup will blow teams up on a regular basis.

Do we have the contracts for this?

Trade machine says
Huerter/barnes/duarte/Sasha for bulls
Davion/lyles/colby/13 for kuzma/26
Both work

We would have a hell of a 7 man rotation. We could split the MLE between Monte Morris and Jalen Smith.

Fox/Morris
LaVine/Keon
Keegan/Caruso
Kuzma/26
Sabinis/Smith

I'd do it. Would ownership pay for this group?

[KF10]

Just bring in both Kuzma & Lavine/Caruso.

Re-emphasize the offensive principles during Brown’s first year as the Kings HC.

This team isn’t equipped to play defense at a high level. They don’t have the right personnel to do it.

Stop pushing the square peg into the round hole. Maximize the team’s main strengths — offensive firepower.

Fox
Lavine
Keegan
Kuzma
Sabonis

Defense will not be at par but offensively? This lineup will blow teams up on a regular basis.

Do we have the contracts for this?

Trade machine says
Huerter/barnes/duarte/Sasha for bulls
Davion/lyles/colby/13 for kuzma/26
Both work

We would have a hell of a 7 man rotation. We could split the MLE between Monte Morris and Jalen Smith.

Fox/Morris
LaVine/Keon
Keegan/Caruso
Kuzma/26
Sabinis/Smith

I'd do it. Would ownership pay for this group?

I’ll do it too.

I feel like if the Kings only do Kuzma and nothing else, the team isn’t entirely better. The ceiling isn’t raised.

But if they managed to get those 3 players collectively and they performed at a good level, I think the ceiling of the team is raised by a good margin, imo.

I seriously doubt this iteration of the Kings misses the playoffs again.

I don’t think ownership wants another year missing the playoffs. This team can get them there.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I hate the LaVine/Caruso and Kuzma possibilities for different reasons especially if either cost us the #13 pick. LaVine needs the ball in his hands just like Fox. And he can't defend. Caruso can but you can't have Fox, Caruso and LaVine on the floor at the same time due to size and defense. It would solve nothing. Kinda moving the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Kuzma, if it didn't cost us the #13 pick works for me (but I can't see how it wouldn't cost us the pick) because he'd be an upgrade over Barnes. But he wouldn't solve our interior defense issue and I hate his personality so he's not a good culture fit. I want no part of either. We do these moves and we're remain pretenders. The LaVine contract is so laughably bad that I refuse to believe our owner is that stupid. I don't even know how we'd afford it. And if we could, how bad our depth would be. And all to be a play-in team? Yuck.

[codydaze]

I hate the LaVine/Caruso and Kuzma possibilities for different reasons especially if either cost us the #13 pick. LaVine needs the ball in his hands just like Fox. And he can't defend. Caruso can but you can't have Fox, Caruso and LaVine on the floor at the same time due to size and defense. It would solve nothing. Kinda moving the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Kuzma, if it didn't cost us the #13 pick works for me (but I can't see how it wouldn't cost us the pick) because he'd be an upgrade over Barnes. But he wouldn't solve our interior defense issue and I hate his personality so he's not a good culture fit. I want no part of either. We do these moves and we're remain pretenders. The LaVine contract is so laughably bad that I refuse to believe our owner is that stupid. I don't even know how we'd afford it. And if we could, how bad our depth would be. And all to be a play-in team? Yuck.

I don't want Lavine on this team either but this justification for not drafting guys or trading for certain guys just needs to stop. To win at the highest levels you NEED multiple guys that can handle the ball and create for themselves. We literally just saw this team fall apart when Monk went down and Fox was the only guy on the team with the ability to be effective with the ball in his hands as a creator. Putting all the pressure on Fox to be the only guy on the team who can just go get a bucket is never going to work.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I hate the LaVine/Caruso and Kuzma possibilities for different reasons especially if either cost us the #13 pick. LaVine needs the ball in his hands just like Fox. And he can't defend. Caruso can but you can't have Fox, Caruso and LaVine on the floor at the same time due to size and defense. It would solve nothing. Kinda moving the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Kuzma, if it didn't cost us the #13 pick works for me (but I can't see how it wouldn't cost us the pick) because he'd be an upgrade over Barnes. But he wouldn't solve our interior defense issue and I hate his personality so he's not a good culture fit. I want no part of either. We do these moves and we're remain pretenders. The LaVine contract is so laughably bad that I refuse to believe our owner is that stupid. I don't even know how we'd afford it. And if we could, how bad our depth would be. And all to be a play-in team? Yuck.

I don't want Lavine on this team either but this justification for not drafting guys or trading for certain guys just needs to stop. To win at the highest levels you NEED multiple guys that can handle the ball and create for themselves. We literally just saw this team fall apart when Monk went down and Fox was the only guy on the team with the ability to be effective with the ball in his hands as a creator. Putting all the pressure on Fox to be the only guy on the team who can just go get a bucket is never going to work.

there's a difference between guys that CAN handle and create for themselves that compliment others and guys that ONLY handle and create for themselves and bring nothing else to the table and are defensive liabilities too.

We can easily replace Monk much cheaper via FA, trades or using the #13 pick.