2023-24 General Thread

[BoogieTime]

I think its Kuzma too... just the haggling left.. I feel like we are trying to play chicken with the wizards to get that 26th pick as well for the 13th

[OxAndFox]

You do get the sense that its now just a waiting game for the draft for Kuzma to be here.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I think its Kuzma too... just the haggling left.. I feel like we are trying to play chicken with the wizards to get that 26th pick as well for the 13th

the #13 pick for a slight improvement over Barnes doesn't seem worth it.

[typedrat]

There are going to be (quite possibly more than) slight improvements over current HB available in the draft at HB, and they're on rookie-scale deals.

[BoogieTime]

I think its Kuzma too... just the haggling left.. I feel like we are trying to play chicken with the wizards to get that 26th pick as well for the 13th

the #13 pick for a slight improvement over Barnes doesn't seem worth it.

Slight improvement? Barnes really wasn’t playing at a high level at all last year, and desperately needs to be replaced in the starting unit. Kuzma has the talent to ‘possibly’ be a strong starting fit, that’s why they have been targeting him for years - they seemingly like some advanced stats or whatever that could fit with Sabonis

Whether or not the Kings could do something else with 13 is another matter. We’ve been through this, and I respect and I know others think there are better prospects than Kuzma with better contracts, but IMO where the Kings are as a team needs the non guesswork of a vet. All the rumors seem to point to the FO agreeing and seeking out trades. I will be surprised if we draft, but we will see

[typedrat]

Across the three seasons he's been with the Wizards:

• When Kuzma is on the floor, the team has an offensive rating of 112.45, a defensive rating of 118.21, and a net rating of -5.76.
• When Kuzma is off the floor, the team has an offensive rating of 112.65, a defensive rating of 115.72, and a net rating of -3.07.

If you think that's unfair because of how high his usage is with the Wizards, let's look at his time with the Lakers:

• When Kuzma was on the floor, the team had an offensive rating of 109.49, a defensive rating of 109.42, and a net rating of 0.07.
• When Kuzma was off the floor, the team had an offensive rating of 110.32, a defensive rating of 107.65, and a net rating of 2.68.

Pretending that a guy is going to suddenly make a defensive jump in year 8 of his NBA career is... optimistic. I question the wisdom of avoiding uncertainty by making a decision you know will be bad.

[BoogieTime]

Across the three seasons he's been with the Wizards:

• When Kuzma is on the floor, the team has an offensive rating of 112.45, a defensive rating of 118.21, and a net rating of -5.76.
• When Kuzma is off the floor, the team has an offensive rating of 112.65, a defensive rating of 115.72, and a net rating of -3.07.

If you think that's unfair because of how high his usage is with the Wizards, let's look at his time with the Lakers:

• When Kuzma was on the floor, the team had an offensive rating of 109.49, a defensive rating of 109.42, and a net rating of 0.07.
• When Kuzma was off the floor, the team had an offensive rating of 110.32, a defensive rating of 107.65, and a net rating of 2.68.

Pretending that a guy is going to suddenly make a defensive jump in year 8 of his NBA career is... optimistic. I question the wisdom of avoiding uncertainty by making a decision you know will be bad.

Those are largely team influenced stats IMO. The guy starts for the Wizards, a bad team

I don’t know about last year, but when the Kings were pursuing him as an FA in the 2023 offseason I remember him having some surprising rim protection numbers in the 2023 season

[typedrat]

Those are largely team influenced stats IMO. The guy starts for the Wizards, a bad team

I don’t know about last year, but when the Kings were pursuing him as an FA in the 2023 offseason I remember him having some surprising rim protection numbers in the 2023 season

If that was true, then why did he have very similar effects on the net rating of the Lakers, a team he won a championship with?

[BoogieTime]

Those are largely team influenced stats IMO. The guy starts for the Wizards, a bad team

I don’t know about last year, but when the Kings were pursuing him as an FA in the 2023 offseason I remember him having some surprising rim protection numbers in the 2023 season

If that was true, then why did he have very similar effects on the net rating of the Lakers, a team he won a championship with?

Why are you grouping how he fared with the Lakers in one stat? What were his stats when the Lakers were good as opposed to when the Lakers were bad? I'm willing to be those numbers were a lot more positive when LeBron and AD were around because IMO they are largely team driven

[typedrat]

I was trying to make a simple point simply, but let's look at a season by season comparison of Barnes and Kuzma using an advanced metric, DARKO, which attempts to control for teammates and other external variables.



At his very best moment, during his championship-winning season with the Lakers, he was about as positively impactful of a basketball player as Harrison Barnes is right now.

[Lost in LA]

I was trying to make a simple point simply, but let's look at a season by season comparison of Barnes and Kuzma using an advanced metric, DARKO, which attempts to control for teammates and other external variables.



At his very best moment, during his championship-winning season with the Lakers, he was about as positively impactful of a basketball player as Harrison Barnes is right now.

He was a fourth or fifth option for the Lakers when he was there. Barnes is unquestionably on the downside of his career and does not appear to be involved much of the time. I believe we need 7,8,9 type rotational players for the regular season, and a forward who can defend for the starting group. Fox looked pretty worn out toward the end of last season, and badly needs some help.

[LightTheBeam]

Curious what Sac does here.

I'm still on board with going the cheaper route and chasing someone like John Collins instead of giving up our pick.

We traded last years pick to dump Holmes
We hopefully won't have next years either

Might be important to use this years pick to add some cheap/upside talent while we still can.

Barnes/Huerter for Collins
Dump Sasha somewhere
(these 2 moves save us 15 million)
Use the MLE on Jalen Smith
Draft one of the forwards

Fox - Keon - Keegan - Collins - Sabonis
Mitchell/Colby - Monk - #13 - Lyles - Smith

That's an interesting rotation going into next year. Add some size with capable shooting in the front court, and another forward we can develop.

[OxAndFox]

Smith would be a nice target. I do like that thinking and while it might not be popular a little bit of forward thinking regarding the cap would be good.

[Jkam31]

Curious what Sac does here.

I'm still on board with going the cheaper route and chasing someone like John Collins instead of giving up our pick.

We traded last years pick to dump Holmes
We hopefully won't have next years either

Might be important to use this years pick to add some cheap/upside talent while we still can.

Barnes/Huerter for Collins
Dump Sasha somewhere
(these 2 moves save us 15 million)
Use the MLE on Jalen Smith
Draft one of the forwards

Fox - Keon - Keegan - Collins - Sabonis
Mitchell/Colby - Monk - #13 - Lyles - Smith

That's an interesting rotation going into next year. Add some size with capable shooting in the front court, and another forward we can develop.

Collins doesn’t raise our ceiling I think kuzma/Grant could raise our ceiling

[FarBeyondDriven]

I think its Kuzma too... just the haggling left.. I feel like we are trying to play chicken with the wizards to get that 26th pick as well for the 13th

the #13 pick for a slight improvement over Barnes doesn't seem worth it.

Slight improvement? Barnes really wasn’t playing at a high level at all last year, and desperately needs to be replaced in the starting unit. Kuzma has the talent to ‘possibly’ be a strong starting fit, that’s why they have been targeting him for years - they seemingly like some advanced stats or whatever that could fit with Sabonis

Whether or not the Kings could do something else with 13 is another matter. We’ve been through this, and I respect and I know others think there are better prospects than Kuzma with better contracts, but IMO where the Kings are as a team needs the non guesswork of a vet. All the rumors seem to point to the FO agreeing and seeking out trades. I will be surprised if we draft, but we will see

Kuzma dominates the ball on a bad Wizards team so his production with us would be much less as the 4th and sometimes even 5th option. Then you'd probably see his numbers similar to HB from two seasons ago. Not really a huge improvement when you consider the efficiency drop at the end of the day. In a vacuum would I want Kuzma over Barnes? Sure. But not if it costs us the #13 pick. I'd rather use that pick on a PF like Smith or trade back and use a later pick on Holmes II while picking up more draft picks, have control over those guys on the cheap for years and develop them behind Barnes than trade it for Kuzma.

I just don't think a slightly higher ceiling short-term is worth costing us a potential much higher ceiling long-term. If I liked Kuzma and didn't view him as a knucklehead and hard to root for I'd be more receptive but I don't.

[BoogieTime]

https://kingsherald.com/articles/report-kings-shopping-the-13th-pick-were-close-on-caruso/

Kings almost traded the 13th for Caruso..

Apparently its the Kings who need to be incentivized to get Lavine.

[BoogieTime]

the #13 pick for a slight improvement over Barnes doesn't seem worth it.

Slight improvement? Barnes really wasn’t playing at a high level at all last year, and desperately needs to be replaced in the starting unit. Kuzma has the talent to ‘possibly’ be a strong starting fit, that’s why they have been targeting him for years - they seemingly like some advanced stats or whatever that could fit with Sabonis

Whether or not the Kings could do something else with 13 is another matter. We’ve been through this, and I respect and I know others think there are better prospects than Kuzma with better contracts, but IMO where the Kings are as a team needs the non guesswork of a vet. All the rumors seem to point to the FO agreeing and seeking out trades. I will be surprised if we draft, but we will see

Kuzma dominates the ball on a bad Wizards team so his production with us would be much less as the 4th and sometimes even 5th option. Then you'd probably see his numbers similar to HB from two seasons ago. Not really a huge improvement when you consider the efficiency drop at the end of the day. In a vacuum would I want Kuzma over Barnes? Sure. But not if it costs us the #13 pick. I'd rather use that pick on a PF like Smith or trade back and use a later pick on Holmes II while picking up more draft picks, have control over those guys on the cheap for years and develop them behind Barnes than trade it for Kuzma.

I just don't think a slightly higher ceiling short-term is worth costing us a potential much higher ceiling long-term. If I liked Kuzma and didn't view him as a knucklehead and hard to root for I'd be more receptive but I don't.

From all reports we are desperately trying to move the 13 for help now, will be surprised if its drafted. Whether or not thats Kuzma, I don't know

We can go over Kuzma's stats, but the Kings are after him, according to reports for years. They have some reason to believe his game will be accentuated here and accentuate others here.

[LightTheBeam]

Curious what Sac does here.

I'm still on board with going the cheaper route and chasing someone like John Collins instead of giving up our pick.

We traded last years pick to dump Holmes
We hopefully won't have next years either

Might be important to use this years pick to add some cheap/upside talent while we still can.

Barnes/Huerter for Collins
Dump Sasha somewhere
(these 2 moves save us 15 million)
Use the MLE on Jalen Smith
Draft one of the forwards

Fox - Keon - Keegan - Collins - Sabonis
Mitchell/Colby - Monk - #13 - Lyles - Smith

That's an interesting rotation going into next year. Add some size with capable shooting in the front court, and another forward we can develop.

Collins doesn’t raise our ceiling I think kuzma/Grant could raise our ceiling

Judging based on fit/cost/salary, I'm all the way out on Grant.

Kuzma Ive come around on, but I'm not sure what more he brings that Collins can't. People forgetting Collins was a 20/10 guy (16/8 for his career) who could hit a 3. He's mobile, athletic, can rebound, can get his own bucket, and would be a good threat off the bounce with Sabonis/Monk. He's also 2 years younger than Kuzma.

To me its
Kuzma vs Collins + 13. I'd rather take the risk that Collins revives his career with us and we hit on 13.

[LightTheBeam]

If the Bulls pivoting from #13 to Giddey is true, I don't really understand it.

I know Caruso is a fantastic defense, but I'm just not seeing that as a huge need. I'm guessing the salary matching would have been 2 of Mitchell/Sasha/Duarte.

It would have commit Sac to being very small, and with no real assets to upgrade the forward spot.

Fox - Keon - Murray - Barnes - Sabonis
Monk - Caruso - Huerter - Lyles

That's a lot of 2guards in the rotation. Sure maybe they had something lined up to send Huerter for a forward, but i'm kinda glad that Chicago pivoted if this is true.

[OxAndFox]

It doesn't mean the whole trade was #13 for Caruso.
Could have been Caruso/Lavine for Barnes/Huerter/Sasha/Duarte/#13.