The TRADE Thread 2021

[rpa]

This is what needs to happen. Unfortunately we will go on a bit of a run, get some hope, trade for a few harkless/davis types. Then finish 11th seed! Yay

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Probably. Team's only 1.5 games out of the play-in game dream (which is like your dream car being a Civic LX). They need to be further out for management to truly give up. The good news, though:

26 games until the allstar break and I count 5 where the Kings will be favored: 2 against OKC, 2 against HOU, and 1 against DET. A 5-21 run would put them at 18-42 heading into the break and on pace for 25 wins. If the Spurs kept up their pace as the 10th seed the Kings would be sitting 6-7 games out by the break. At that point they've gotta see the writing on the wall, right?

That said, I don't even know what they should do (at a high level) if they finally realize they need to rebuild. It's easy to say "trade everyone" when like 2/3 of the roster are JAGs. Trade Buddy and Bagley? Sure, but that doesn't move the needle. Trade Barnes? You'll get assets, but he's just a complimentary piece. You could try trading Holmes, but given that he seemed happy to be here that's a kick in the balls. You obviously aren't moving off Haliburton or Mitchell and that brings the question back to Fox. He's your best player, but he should be your 2nd or 3rd best (which is the team's biggest issue--lack of talent) and there's an argument that he could be a better player with a remotely competent coach*. So do you really trade him for a bag of assets that have little to no chance to return a player of his caliber? That'd suck. But if you don't trade him you're stuck with a core of 3-guards with some extreme weaknesses.

* Side bar: I feel like people forget now just how good Fox looked in year two before the Kings fired Joeger and brought in Walton. That year Fox:
a) Shot 37% from 3 (the best season of his career by 5%)
b) Averaged 10.8 assists per 100 possessions (best of his career)
c) Had 2.5 DWS (highest in career by 1.1) and a positive DBPM (only time in career).
d) Had the 11th highest ORPM in the league at 4.24. He hasn't eclipsed 3.0 in the 2 seasons since.

The teams best player is Tyrese Haliburton, by a fairly wide margin

Read on Twitter

Fox is just a negative player producing negative advanced stats, so far this year. Your hearkening back to three years. It reminds me of D'angelo Russell's year with the Nets. At this point many might think that's Fox's closest comparison, another talented guard who didn't have the motor to put any consistency or defense or noticeable impact on the floor.

We've had multiple coaches, at some point the blame goes to him.

But I agree with the rest

This is a pretty myopic take.

If a 30 game sample size is enough to say that Fox is no longer the team's best player (long term) then you may as well also anoint him as one of the worst 2-3 contracts in the league.

[BoogieTime]

Probably. Team's only 1.5 games out of the play-in game dream (which is like your dream car being a Civic LX). They need to be further out for management to truly give up. The good news, though:

26 games until the allstar break and I count 5 where the Kings will be favored: 2 against OKC, 2 against HOU, and 1 against DET. A 5-21 run would put them at 18-42 heading into the break and on pace for 25 wins. If the Spurs kept up their pace as the 10th seed the Kings would be sitting 6-7 games out by the break. At that point they've gotta see the writing on the wall, right?

That said, I don't even know what they should do (at a high level) if they finally realize they need to rebuild. It's easy to say "trade everyone" when like 2/3 of the roster are JAGs. Trade Buddy and Bagley? Sure, but that doesn't move the needle. Trade Barnes? You'll get assets, but he's just a complimentary piece. You could try trading Holmes, but given that he seemed happy to be here that's a kick in the balls. You obviously aren't moving off Haliburton or Mitchell and that brings the question back to Fox. He's your best player, but he should be your 2nd or 3rd best (which is the team's biggest issue--lack of talent) and there's an argument that he could be a better player with a remotely competent coach*. So do you really trade him for a bag of assets that have little to no chance to return a player of his caliber? That'd suck. But if you don't trade him you're stuck with a core of 3-guards with some extreme weaknesses.

* Side bar: I feel like people forget now just how good Fox looked in year two before the Kings fired Joeger and brought in Walton. That year Fox:
a) Shot 37% from 3 (the best season of his career by 5%)
b) Averaged 10.8 assists per 100 possessions (best of his career)
c) Had 2.5 DWS (highest in career by 1.1) and a positive DBPM (only time in career).
d) Had the 11th highest ORPM in the league at 4.24. He hasn't eclipsed 3.0 in the 2 seasons since.

The teams best player is Tyrese Haliburton, by a fairly wide margin

Read on Twitter

Fox is just a negative player producing negative advanced stats, so far this year. Your hearkening back to three years. It reminds me of D'angelo Russell's year with the Nets. At this point many might think that's Fox's closest comparison, another talented guard who didn't have the motor to put any consistency or defense or noticeable impact on the floor.

We've had multiple coaches, at some point the blame goes to him.

But I agree with the rest

This is a pretty myopic take.

If a 30 game sample size is enough to say that Fox is no longer the team's best player (long term) then you may as well also anoint him as one of the worst 2-3 contracts in the league.

Did you see Tyrese without Fox? He has the talent to be a franchise type PG

[rpa]

The teams best player is Tyrese Haliburton, by a fairly wide margin

Read on Twitter

Fox is just a negative player producing negative advanced stats, so far this year. Your hearkening back to three years. It reminds me of D'angelo Russell's year with the Nets. At this point many might think that's Fox's closest comparison, another talented guard who didn't have the motor to put any consistency or defense or noticeable impact on the floor.

We've had multiple coaches, at some point the blame goes to him.

But I agree with the rest

This is a pretty myopic take.

If a 30 game sample size is enough to say that Fox is no longer the team's best player (long term) then you may as well also anoint him as one of the worst 2-3 contracts in the league.

Did you see Tyrese without Fox? He has the talent to be a franchise type PG

I'm as excited as you are for Haliburton, but it was 4 games and the Kings were blown out in 3 of them.

[LightTheBeam]

This is a pretty myopic take.

If a 30 game sample size is enough to say that Fox is no longer the team's best player (long term) then you may as well also anoint him as one of the worst 2-3 contracts in the league.

Did you see Tyrese without Fox? He has the talent to be a franchise type PG

I'm as excited as you are for Haliburton, but it was 4 games and the Kings were blown out in 3 of them.

Yup something I haven't heard many admit. The team was pretty rag tag so needed someone to score. It was a nice little stretch, but not willing to make long term decision based on that.

TBH, Haliburton doesn't strike me as a franchise star. I think he has potential to be a 3rd best/4th best player type. A very poor mans CP3, still a fantastic player. But if you are building around Tyrese its going to be tough as he doesn't have the offensive moves, body type, dog mentality or quick first step.

Hope I'm wrong. I've got a ton of money invested into his basketball cards. Genuinely love the guy. Just doesn't strike me as a teams #1 or #2.

I also still think long term he and Fox can be totally fine together. Fox is transitioning more towards being a 2. Between the position change, coaching change, covid, and the crap shoot team, that makes for a tough start.

[rpa]

Did you see Tyrese without Fox? He has the talent to be a franchise type PG

I'm as excited as you are for Haliburton, but it was 4 games and the Kings were blown out in 3 of them.

Yup something I haven't heard many admit. The team was pretty rag tag so needed someone to score. It was a nice little stretch, but not willing to make long term decision based on that.

TBH, Haliburton doesn't strike me as a franchise star. I think he has potential to be a 3rd best/4th best player type. A very poor mans CP3, still a fantastic player. But if you are building around Tyrese its going to be tough as he doesn't have the offensive moves, body type, dog mentality or quick first step.

Hope I'm wrong. I've got a ton of money invested into his basketball cards. Genuinely love the guy. Just doesn't strike me as a teams #1 or #2.

I also still think long term he and Fox can be totally fine together. Fox is transitioning more towards being a 2. Between the position change, coaching change, covid, and the crap shoot team, that makes for a tough start.

I could see Haliburton being a #1 guy, but it's in a very specific setup like Nash's Suns or Kidd's Nets where he's got some monster-level players running alongside of him that allow him to maximize his creation abilities without having to score 25+ a night.

[LightTheBeam]

I'm as excited as you are for Haliburton, but it was 4 games and the Kings were blown out in 3 of them.

Yup something I haven't heard many admit. The team was pretty rag tag so needed someone to score. It was a nice little stretch, but not willing to make long term decision based on that.

TBH, Haliburton doesn't strike me as a franchise star. I think he has potential to be a 3rd best/4th best player type. A very poor mans CP3, still a fantastic player. But if you are building around Tyrese its going to be tough as he doesn't have the offensive moves, body type, dog mentality or quick first step.

Hope I'm wrong. I've got a ton of money invested into his basketball cards. Genuinely love the guy. Just doesn't strike me as a teams #1 or #2.

I also still think long term he and Fox can be totally fine together. Fox is transitioning more towards being a 2. Between the position change, coaching change, covid, and the crap shoot team, that makes for a tough start.

I could see Haliburton being a #1 guy, but it's in a very specific setup like Nash's Suns or Kidd's Nets where he's got some monster-level players running alongside of him that allow him to maximize his creation abilities without having to score 25+ a night.

I hope you are right. If he reaches the level of Steve Nash that would be truly spectacular. I'm not seeing it right now, but who knows. Steve was fast, knew how to use his body to be great at finishing at the rim, definitely not scared of contact, and was one of the best dribblers/passers ever.

Tyrese absolutely feels like a championship player. I think its easy to fill him in almost any team. But ya you probably need a couple scoring stars around him.

[sacking123]

Some really good points overall here. I just hope they don't trade just to trade.
This team has had enough time to gel. Need to rid ourselves of all players that don't have great IQ and keep the ones that do.
Keep it simple for a while and allow Monte some time to get his own roster. RipPizzaGuy had an excellent point of the cycle that goes on around here and we're in danger of doing the same thing. So ownership needs to either allow Monte to do what he needs to do and be prepared to give him 2-3 years, or move him on and get both the GM and coach in the off season.

[BoogieTime]

Fox 4-17, with excellent 0-3 3pt, 4-7 Ft shooting and looking ridiculously disengaged...

We are a couple of games like this away from me just needing him removed for expirings. Because we are nearing 50/50 for him just becoming a bad contract IMO if this continues

The fanbase is rightfully fed up

There needs to be reasons for his play tonight and this season

His contract can go one of two ways, being bad and an albatross, or him showing some of what he was supposed to show coming into this season. But we are nearing 50/50 on his contract as far as I'm getting concerned

Essentially there needs to be reasons why he has played this way thus far that are not going to inhibit him to such a degree going forward that aren't motor/determination related. He has given no reasoning so far, is it long covid? The new ball? Family issues? Because if there are no reasons, he cant be trusted not to perform like this in the future

Also from a human perspective, fans just dont like to see players half butting it. Thats why the team without him and the youth was more entertaining and easier to support

[Catchall]

Jazz fan here. I'm assuming that the Jazz have some level of interest in Harrison Barnes. He might be enough to nudge the Jazz into the Finals. What kind of deals have you guys been discussing for him?

[BoogieTime]

Read on Twitter

Even the local media has had their fill of Fox

I felt last night he had crossed a line, and so did apparently others. He was less engaged, from being IMO his typical less engaged. Last night was ridiculous, not tolerable even for hanging onto him because of his low trade value

[codydaze]

Jazz fan here. I'm assuming that the Jazz have some level of interest in Harrison Barnes. He might be enough to nudge the Jazz into the Finals. What kind of deals have you guys been discussing for him?

I think Barnes would be great in Utah but I don't think we're good trade partners unless a third team is involved. If we were to move on from Barnes we would likely be looking for some young guys and draft assets.

[SacFanArkansas]

Ok so would this be so bad… trade fox for Simmons.. might have to include a draft pick but makes our starting lineup more steady I feel. Starting mitchell, Halliburton at guards, Simmons, Harrison at forward, and Holmes at center. Scoring comes from Halliburton, Barnes, rebounding from Simmons,Holmes, and defense from mitchell, Simmons.. feel like this solves the missing piece.. not a perfect piece but makes this Halliburton’s team or maybe Simmons steps up.. thoughts

[BoogieTime]

Ok so would this be so bad… trade fox for Simmons.. might have to include a draft pick but makes our starting lineup more steady I feel. Starting mitchell, Halliburton at guards, Simmons, Harrison at forward, and Holmes at center. Scoring comes from Halliburton, Barnes, rebounding from Simmons,Holmes, and defense from mitchell, Simmons.. feel like this solves the missing piece.. not a perfect piece but makes this Halliburton’s team or maybe Simmons steps up.. thoughts

Have you read the thread? You sound like me in the summer with Simmons. At this stage, IMHO, Fox's value isn't where it needs to be. The issue is now IMO do you move Fox to move him, with some ancillary value, if your contemplating a Fox trade

About the prospective team, I don't know. I'm a big fan of both Hali and Mitchell, and I do see them as the future backcourt of the team. How Fox and/or Simmons would play into that? Can you eventually run out those two with Fox if Fox stays on his game? Would Simmons be amenable to playing a different role than he did in Philadelphia? I like Simmons talent which is why I favored the trade in the summer, the advanced stats are what they are, but he's really an odd piece to fit into a team. Will be interesting to see what role he plays on his next team, I doubt it will be here.

On a side note it will be interesting to see what Simmons is eventually traded for. I dont have any desire to pair him with Fox and Holmes if Fox remains. Spacing would be abhorrent and not enough playing off ball skills.

And, if any type of solid value were to ever present itself, I'm not Fox's biggest fan if you read the thread but he wouldnt be here a day longer from my vantage. But different people have different views

[SacFanArkansas]

Agree with everything you said boogie.. was just thinking outside the box where in one move we have a more stable lineup (if that makes sense) I agree fox’s value is low that’s why I would hate to add picks but kinda feel like we would need to. I feel like we are in the same position as we were with Richmond back in the day where we traded an all star for a disgruntled forward in Weber. Take a risk and let’s see where we go…

[BoogieTime]

Barnes is still out here helping win meaningless games

Vivek should have zero influence on the team, and should be outed for his meddling

[Larry_Russell]

Would a package of
Horford, schroder(exp) juancho(exp) and romeo langford (defender becominf a solid shooter) and a pick

For

Fox, hield and a few million in salary work?

You guys cut loads of longterm salary committments and move to build around the kids.

[LightTheBeam]

Would a package of
Horford, schroder(exp) juancho(exp) and romeo langford (defender becominf a solid shooter) and a pick

For

Fox, hield and a few million in salary work?

You guys cut loads of longterm salary committments and move to build around the kids.

Come on man.. This is silly.

Would a package of Holmes, Woodard, Ramsey and a pick work for Brown?

[Larry_Russell]

Would a package of
Horford, schroder(exp) juancho(exp) and romeo langford (defender becominf a solid shooter) and a pick

For

Fox, hield and a few million in salary work?

You guys cut loads of longterm salary committments and move to build around the kids.

Come on man.. This is silly.

Would a package of Holmes, Woodard, Ramsey and a pick work for Brown?

Well brown hasnt been playing disinterested.

Brown doest have a better player than him playing beside him out of position.

That counter offer doesnt shed 10 million this years salary

Or shed around 40 million next season and ~100mill over the course of fox and buddies salary.

Player to player kings lose out I think, but a pick, a young guys andassive cap flexibilty i thought, would be close to covering the difference before Fox further hurts his value then demands a trade.

[kb02]

Would a package of
Horford, schroder(exp) juancho(exp) and romeo langford (defender becominf a solid shooter) and a pick

For

Fox, hield and a few million in salary work?

You guys cut loads of longterm salary committments and move to build around the kids.

Come on man.. This is silly.

Would a package of Holmes, Woodard, Ramsey and a pick work for Brown?

Well brown hasnt been playing disinterested.

Brown doest have a better player than him playing beside him out of position.

That counter offer doesnt shed 10 million this years salary

Or shed around 40 million next season and ~100mill over the course of fox and buddies salary.

Player to player kings lose out I think, but a pick, a young guys andassive cap flexibilty i thought, would be close to covering the difference before Fox further hurts his value then demands a trade.

You sound like a Raps fan. I'm in favor of trading Fox, but this offer is just disrespectful.

[LightTheBeam]

Would a package of
Horford, schroder(exp) juancho(exp) and romeo langford (defender becominf a solid shooter) and a pick

For

Fox, hield and a few million in salary work?

You guys cut loads of longterm salary committments and move to build around the kids.

Come on man.. This is silly.

Would a package of Holmes, Woodard, Ramsey and a pick work for Brown?

Well brown hasnt been playing disinterested.

Brown doest have a better player than him playing beside him out of position.

That counter offer doesnt shed 10 million this years salary

Or shed around 40 million next season and ~100mill over the course of fox and buddies salary.

Player to player kings lose out I think, but a pick, a young guys andassive cap flexibilty i thought, would be close to covering the difference before Fox further hurts his value then demands a trade.

"Well brown hasnt been playing disinterested." - He hasn't? 36 shots, 0 assists. teammate calls him out for not passing.

"Brown doest have a better player than him playing beside him out of position." He doesn't? Id argue that Brown is in Tatums way as much as Fox is in Hali's.

The counter offer wasn't meant to be taken seriously. We aren't trading Fox for bad salary and 1 1st round pick. Thats silly. Langford has played 79 games in 3 seasons, and averaged 3.6ppg, at best you could convince a team to give you a mid 2nd for him.