Trade Idea Thread 15-16

[Kings2013]

For the record, I was all for going after Pat Bev and going into the year with a Beverley/Collison combo.

Look, the problems the team faces go beyond even strict personnel issues. Well, unless you take the coaches view that with better individual defenders Karls system would be A OK. Which there is a point most likely. But then again, if that's the issue why does he repeatedly play lineups that are literally incapable of playing in certain ways on the defensive side of the ball? The Rondo/Collison combo is deadly, and not it a good way. Yet, he continues to play them major minutes together. Quincy Acy is relegated to towel waiving on most nights. Willie gets yanked at the drop of a hat on the first half hearted screen he sets. It just makes no sense.

Slowing the pace might help some things. I mean, if you think about it, when you're poor defense is more of a factor in the W/L column than your "great" offense, how does creating more possessions per game for both sides help you? At that point you may want to look at limiting the number of times the other team has on offense first and foremost and that means limiting your own attempts as well.

Rondo is what he is defensively, but even not so awesome defensive teams can be better than the Kings have been this year. This summer is a big one, and while I like Vlades stick to it philosophy I hope he's still looking at the clear needs of this team. And right now that probably includes a lot more than sticking to it or making a minute change like firing the water boy or something.

In assuming Collison would be the one starting as the better player

I wanted DC and Bev/CoJo backing him up myself

[blind prophet]

I think we should take a look at Dre, Minnesota just waived him.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240987/Wolves-Waive-Andre-Miller

[KF10]

I think we should take a look at Dre, Minnesota just waived him.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240987/Wolves-Waive-Andre-Miller

Miller is 39 and I don't think he will move the needle much at all.

[blind prophet]

I think we should take a look at Dre, Minnesota just waived him.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240987/Wolves-Waive-Andre-Miller

Miller is 39 and I don't think he will move the needle much at all.

I'm going to have to disagree.

I think he can run an offense still for 15 mpg behind Rondo. Defensively I don't think we are losing much either if we had a Collison/Miller pair over a Collison/Marco pair.

Maybe Miller helps some with Marco's efficiency if he was used at the SF.

Regardless its zero risk, unless you see something in Dukan.

[SacKingZZZ]

Where is he going to play and who gets crunched? The last thing the Kings need is a play making PG. Taking Marco out of the lineup in favor him doesn't really do much since they still need spacing at that position.

[blind prophet]

Where is he going to play and who gets crunched? The last thing the Kings need is a play making PG. Taking Marco out of the lineup in favor him doesn't really do much since they still need spacing at that position.

Miller
Collison
Marco
Casspi
KK

Gets Rondo some rest, gives a play maker a chance to boost Marco's efficiency and boost bench production.

[bleeds_purple]

I feel like Curry is a better play than Miller at this point. Plus we're already undersized as is in the backcourt.

[KF10]

I'm going to have to disagree.

I think he can run an offense still for 15 mpg behind Rondo. Defensively I don't think we are losing much either if we had a Collison/Miller pair over a Collison/Marco pair.

Maybe Miller helps some with Marco's efficiency if he was used at the SF.

Regardless its zero risk, unless you see something in Dukan.

Moving Collison to the 2 spot alongside with Miller who will handle the ball as the PG for the second unit was something I thought about before submitting my previous post. I mean, I guess with the addition of Miller to the second unit will provide some stability and fluidity with that particular unit. The reason why I decided to went with my initial opinion of Miller not moving the needle because by inserting Miller with Collison, this removes the ball from Collison. IMO, Collison is at his best when he has the ball in his hands. Taking that away will lower Collison's impact and worth, imo. And I believe Collison is one of the better players on the Kings team. I think you can make a case for either way, tbh.

[SacKingZZZ]

Here's the thing though, one of the reasons Collison has surged since getting all those backup PG minutes is that they put the ball back in his hands. Take it out again and watch him fade.

[benchmobbin02]

Here's the thing though, one of the reasons Collison has surged since getting all those backup PG minutes is that they put the ball back in his hands. Take it out again and watch him fade.

Wasn't Collison always getting the backup minutes at pg. Surge isn't a product of that.

[SacKingZZZ]

Here's the thing though, one of the reasons Collison has surged since getting all those backup PG minutes is that they put the ball back in his hands. Take it out again and watch him fade.

Wasn't Collison always getting the backup minutes at pg. Surge isn't a product of that.

Didn't say he wasn't. What I'm saying is he is the unquestioned backup PG, with Miller he slides to the SG so he'll be playing most of the game with the ball out of his hands. He can do it, but he'll dip.

[benchmobbin02]

Here's the thing though, one of the reasons Collison has surged since getting all those backup PG minutes is that they put the ball back in his hands. Take it out again and watch him fade.

Wasn't Collison always getting the backup minutes at pg. Surge isn't a product of that.

Didn't say he wasn't. What I'm saying is he is the unquestioned backup PG, with Miller he slides to the SG so he'll be playing most of the game with the ball out of his hands. He can do it, but he'll dip.

Not true. DC gets his points with Rondo on the floor and without and the 'surge', as you call it, is just him being a scorer. He hits spot up jumpers, comes off screens, creates when the play breaks down to get to the rim and is probably our leading scorer in transition, tho i don't have the #'s on that and Rudy may give him a run there. The point is he can get those points regardless of whether he is the primary ball handler or not. Especially if he was the primary 2 in the bench unit. Miller isn't gonna take his shots, he is a pass first pg. DC would be the first option.

He would also still probably be on the court at the end of games as well. His ppg and shot att per game may dip slightly but he will still have between 10-20ppg and 5-15 shot a game, his avg.

[SacKingZZZ]

Wasn't Collison always getting the backup minutes at pg. Surge isn't a product of that.

Didn't say he wasn't. What I'm saying is he is the unquestioned backup PG, with Miller he slides to the SG so he'll be playing most of the game with the ball out of his hands. He can do it, but he'll dip.

Not true. DC gets his points with Rondo on the floor and without and the 'surge', as you call it, is just him being a scorer. He hits spot up jumpers, comes off screens, creates when the play breaks down to get to the rim and is probably our leading scorer in transition, tho i don't have the #'s on that and Rudy may give him a run there. The point is he can get those points regardless of whether he is the primary ball handler or not. Especially if he was the primary 2 in the bench unit. Miller isn't gonna take his shots, he is a pass first pg. DC would be the first option.

He would also still probably be on the court at the end of games as well. His ppg and shot att per game may dip slightly but he will still have between 10-20ppg and 5-15 shot a game, his avg.

A large part of his standout performances have come with him having the ball and creating. With both Rondo and Miller that would limited to a degree.

Here's an example of one of his recent standout performances. He's really been allowed to assume almost a Jamal Crawford role off the bench since February.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n22DSvgh-Y[/youtube]

Like I said, "He can do it, but he'll dip." I'm not arguing he can't score without the ball, but him having the ball in his hands has been the catalyst for the run he's been making post all star. We are talking about adding another primary ball handler which would mean a lot and certainly change the composition.

[benchmobbin02]

Didn't say he wasn't. What I'm saying is he is the unquestioned backup PG, with Miller he slides to the SG so he'll be playing most of the game with the ball out of his hands. He can do it, but he'll dip.

Not true. DC gets his points with Rondo on the floor and without and the 'surge', as you call it, is just him being a scorer. He hits spot up jumpers, comes off screens, creates when the play breaks down to get to the rim and is probably our leading scorer in transition, tho i don't have the #'s on that and Rudy may give him a run there. The point is he can get those points regardless of whether he is the primary ball handler or not. Especially if he was the primary 2 in the bench unit. Miller isn't gonna take his shots, he is a pass first pg. DC would be the first option.

He would also still probably be on the court at the end of games as well. His ppg and shot att per game may dip slightly but he will still have between 10-20ppg and 5-15 shot a game, his avg.

A large part of his standout performances have come with him having the ball and creating. With both Rondo and Miller that would limited to a degree.

Here's an example of one of his recent standout performances. He's really been allowed to assume almost a Jamal Crawford role off the bench since February.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n22DSvgh-Y[/youtube]

Like I said, "He can do it, but he'll dip." I'm not arguing he can't score without the ball, but him having the ball in his hands has been the catalyst for the run he's been making post all star. We are talking about adding another primary ball handler which would mean a lot and certainly change the composition.

There was only one play in that whole highlight that required him to be the primary ball handler to complete. It can be argued that an excellent pass first guard would help him and all the rest of the bench unit (Casspi, Marco, Kosta) get better shots then they get with DC running the offense. He is avg 3.2 ast in FEB and 3.9 for the season which is way down from his career avg.

We both have points that are valid but it's moot with Miller signing with the Spurs.

[SacKingZZZ]

Not true. DC gets his points with Rondo on the floor and without and the 'surge', as you call it, is just him being a scorer. He hits spot up jumpers, comes off screens, creates when the play breaks down to get to the rim and is probably our leading scorer in transition, tho i don't have the #'s on that and Rudy may give him a run there. The point is he can get those points regardless of whether he is the primary ball handler or not. Especially if he was the primary 2 in the bench unit. Miller isn't gonna take his shots, he is a pass first pg. DC would be the first option.

He would also still probably be on the court at the end of games as well. His ppg and shot att per game may dip slightly but he will still have between 10-20ppg and 5-15 shot a game, his avg.

A large part of his standout performances have come with him having the ball and creating. With both Rondo and Miller that would limited to a degree.

Here's an example of one of his recent standout performances. He's really been allowed to assume almost a Jamal Crawford role off the bench since February.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n22DSvgh-Y[/youtube]

Like I said, "He can do it, but he'll dip." I'm not arguing he can't score without the ball, but him having the ball in his hands has been the catalyst for the run he's been making post all star. We are talking about adding another primary ball handler which would mean a lot and certainly change the composition.

There was only one play in that whole highlight that required him to be the primary ball handler to complete. It can be argued that an excellent pass first guard would help him and all the rest of the bench unit (Casspi, Marco, Kosta) get better shots then they get with DC running the offense. He is avg 3.2 ast in FEB and 3.9 for the season which is way down from his career avg.

We both have points that are valid but it's moot with Miller signing with the Spurs.

You and I clearly saw different things in that video. It could be argued, but it would certainly take away from much of what was seen in that video considering he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in that video.

[benchmobbin02]

A large part of his standout performances have come with him having the ball and creating. With both Rondo and Miller that would limited to a degree.

Here's an example of one of his recent standout performances. He's really been allowed to assume almost a Jamal Crawford role off the bench since February.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n22DSvgh-Y[/youtube]

Like I said, "He can do it, but he'll dip." I'm not arguing he can't score without the ball, but him having the ball in his hands has been the catalyst for the run he's been making post all star. We are talking about adding another primary ball handler which would mean a lot and certainly change the composition.

There was only one play in that whole highlight that required him to be the primary ball handler to complete. It can be argued that an excellent pass first guard would help him and all the rest of the bench unit (Casspi, Marco, Kosta) get better shots then they get with DC running the offense. He is avg 3.2 ast in FEB and 3.9 for the season which is way down from his career avg.

We both have points that are valid but it's moot with Miller signing with the Spurs.

You and I clearly saw different things in that video. It could be argued, but it would certainly take away from much of what was seen in that video considering he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in that video.

There is a reason "he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in the video". IT'S A HIGHLIGHT VIDEO ABOUT HIM!

In the video, I see two transition baskets where he takes the ball down the court. Now if he and Miller were both on the court and someone got the rebound they would pass it to he first of the two that were open due to them both being pgs and the team wanting to push the pace, so that dispels the notion that it would hurt his #s in a meaningful way in that aspect.

I also see spot up jumpers and iso plays from DC in the video. Those can also be achieved with a pass first pg on the court. Very easily I might add. He would have a play called for him and get the ball and create and the same for the pick and roll stuff he did in the video.

Then you add that DC is a shoot first guy that goes for his shot first and passes only when needed in the play or he is cut off. Having a guy like Miller would help the other players on the 2nd unit be more involved in the offense and therefore play with more energy. Haven't you noticed that when Kosta or Casspi get a couple of easy buckets their defensive effort goes up. It's a common thing in basketball that I think the Kings are lacking on the bench. So many times it's just DC or Marco going 1 on 3 and it wastes any momentum we may have built.

I'm not saying that DC is a bad player or isn't doing the best he can, far from it, but I think more balance would do wonders with the 2nd unit and a ball handler that looks to distribute more would help create that balance. I know that DC is a valuable part of the offense.

Imagine if we had a point forward like we just seen in SA with Anderson or like Mil will start using the Greek freak to pair with a guy like DC. We could have that guy that gets everyone involved but doesn't compromise the defense. Just my thought on the topic.

[SacKingZZZ]

There was only one play in that whole highlight that required him to be the primary ball handler to complete. It can be argued that an excellent pass first guard would help him and all the rest of the bench unit (Casspi, Marco, Kosta) get better shots then they get with DC running the offense. He is avg 3.2 ast in FEB and 3.9 for the season which is way down from his career avg.

We both have points that are valid but it's moot with Miller signing with the Spurs.

You and I clearly saw different things in that video. It could be argued, but it would certainly take away from much of what was seen in that video considering he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in that video.

There is a reason "he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in the video". IT'S A HIGHLIGHT VIDEO ABOUT HIM!

In the video, I see two transition baskets where he takes the ball down the court. Now if he and Miller were both on the court and someone got the rebound they would pass it to he first of the two that were open due to them both being pgs and the team wanting to push the pace, so that dispels the notion that it would hurt his #s in a meaningful way in that aspect.

I also see spot up jumpers and iso plays from DC in the video. Those can also be achieved with a pass first pg on the court. Very easily I might add. He would have a play called for him and get the ball and create and the same for the pick and roll stuff he did in the video.

Then you add that DC is a shoot first guy that goes for his shot first and passes only when needed in the play or he is cut off. Having a guy like Miller would help the other players on the 2nd unit be more involved in the offense and therefore play with more energy. Haven't you noticed that when Kosta or Casspi get a couple of easy buckets their defensive effort goes up. It's a common thing in basketball that I think the Kings are lacking on the bench. So many times it's just DC or Marco going 1 on 3 and it wastes any momentum we may have built.

I'm not saying that DC is a bad player or isn't doing the best he can, far from it, but I think more balance would do wonders with the 2nd unit and a ball handler that looks to distribute more would help create that balance. I know that DC is a valuable part of the offense.

Imagine if we had a point forward like we just seen in SA with Anderson or like Mil will start using the Greek freak to pair with a guy like DC. We could have that guy that gets everyone involved but doesn't compromise the defense. Just my thought on the topic.

Where did I say they couldn't? I said overall he'd dip. It would change a lot of the opportunities he's had as a result of his specific role.

[benchmobbin02]

You and I clearly saw different things in that video. It could be argued, but it would certainly take away from much of what was seen in that video considering he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in that video.

There is a reason "he had the ball in his hands quite a bit in the video". IT'S A HIGHLIGHT VIDEO ABOUT HIM!

In the video, I see two transition baskets where he takes the ball down the court. Now if he and Miller were both on the court and someone got the rebound they would pass it to he first of the two that were open due to them both being pgs and the team wanting to push the pace, so that dispels the notion that it would hurt his #s in a meaningful way in that aspect.

I also see spot up jumpers and iso plays from DC in the video. Those can also be achieved with a pass first pg on the court. Very easily I might add. He would have a play called for him and get the ball and create and the same for the pick and roll stuff he did in the video.

Then you add that DC is a shoot first guy that goes for his shot first and passes only when needed in the play or he is cut off. Having a guy like Miller would help the other players on the 2nd unit be more involved in the offense and therefore play with more energy. Haven't you noticed that when Kosta or Casspi get a couple of easy buckets their defensive effort goes up. It's a common thing in basketball that I think the Kings are lacking on the bench. So many times it's just DC or Marco going 1 on 3 and it wastes any momentum we may have built.

I'm not saying that DC is a bad player or isn't doing the best he can, far from it, but I think more balance would do wonders with the 2nd unit and a ball handler that looks to distribute more would help create that balance. I know that DC is a valuable part of the offense.

Imagine if we had a point forward like we just seen in SA with Anderson or like Mil will start using the Greek freak to pair with a guy like DC. We could have that guy that gets everyone involved but doesn't compromise the defense. Just my thought on the topic.

Where did I say they couldn't? I said overall he'd dip. It would change a lot of the opportunities he's had as a result of his specific role.

But not his impact overall.

[jayu70]

If Rondo elects to go elsewhere in Facy, would you guys be interested in Jeff Teague?

[teerfour+40LG]

If Rondo elects to go elsewhere in Facy, would you guys be interested in Jeff Teague?

Mildly. I don't wanna think about Rondo leaving though. I love him.