Tyreke and the We-Need-a-PG Fiction

[RoyalCourtJestr]

I'm in the middle of finals and need a break, and I figured I'd bring up an issue that we kind of mention but never really discussed.

Every 'expect' and many fans say that this teams biggest need is a passing PG. To me, this teams biggest need is a shooter, but thats not important. What is important is this - I believe that if you bring in a pass-heavy PG - say, Steve Nash for the sake of argument - or any guard who needs the ball to be effective, you are destroying Tyreke.

Tyreke may not be the best passer. His court vision isn't solid yet. His idea of a pass play is to drive and kick. However - putting a pass-heavy PG who removes the ball from Tyreke's hands is perhaps the worst thing we can do for this team.

Case in point - if there is ONE thing that we've seen about Tyreke over the past two years, it is this - he is AWFUL without the ball. He has no idea what to do offensively if he is not controling the ball, controling the tempo. Beno brings the ball up on occasion and Tyreke waits for him to pass it to Tyreke. He looks lost. He can't really FUNCTION without the ball. He NEEDS the ball.

Plus, even with all the offensive struggles on this team - lacking true scorers and an offensive focus - he's hit 9 assists five times, averaging 5.6 per game, which is only .2 below Jennings and Curry - both who are hailed as "real" PGs. He's not gonna kill anyone with those numbers, and he's one of the lower PGs in terms of starting/assists and has a 1.61 AT ratio - not great. But he's not going out and only getting 3 assists.

Tyreke is in the same mold as LeBron. Not in terms of talent level - but in terms of NEEDING the ball. LeBron and Wade are both the same, they've controled their teams for so long and now with each other look lost. Why do people love to point out LeBron/Wades inabilities to play off ball and yet think Tyreke needs a PG?

This is not a huge critic of Tyreke. I love Tyreke's game, I think this season is a sophmore slump made worse by nagging injuries and I expect next season will be like Rose's - Rose didn't live up to expectations last season, people said he didn't have 'it' and now he's a MVP candidate. I expect a simular awaking in Tyreke.

However, I just can't read useless drivel like Vision's recent "Kings learn Tyreke isn't a PG". Isn't this the same writer whose only positive adition to the Sports world was the continued acknowledgement that Tyreke didn't NEED to be catagorized into a system? And now people are saying he's a SG OR SF (Ha, that one makes me laugh) trying to play PG?

Please. Tyreke may not have the passing that many PGs have, but he's improving, and if we (FINALLY) decide to run a half court system, he'll be MUCH more effective. Honestly, does anyone here trust ANYONE else on this team with the ball? Tyreke makes boneheaded plays, but he is the floor general, he NEEDS the ball, and to say we need to add a PG that would take away Tyreke's offense game is the biggest fiction we have about this team.

What we need isn't a pure PG, but rather another guard who, like Tyreke, can transend the 'position' fiction and play with the ball or off the ball, shoot and play defense. Thats what we need.

[dozencousins]

I am on the fence about a point guard right now only because our record is so bad if we got a top 3 pick in the draft we could possibly land BRANDON KNIGHT , KEMBA WALKER or PRICE
If we trade for a point guard etc. I have no problem with it but i dont want it to screw up our draft plans per say !
I know alot of people think CP3 is untouchable but I think it has a possibility as that organization is hurting really badly . I truly believe between their franchise issues & their team starting to lose alot they may simply look to have a fire sale though we would have to give up expirings , possible pick & a young talent or instead of the pick an expiring & 2 x young talents .
If CP3 became available I think we have a shot to get him .
Mybe DALY , CASSPI & LANDRY for CP3 & filler ?

[longfellow44]

I agree To an extent. We need a guard that can facilitate an offense, basically what I want is another Beno who is a slightly better shooter and a better defender, the rest of the beno package is perfect for what we need.

Tyreke I think needs to pretty much stay at the 2 guard position though unless we have another 2 guard that can be a facilitator in the offense. The main issue is that sometimes when Tyreke does his drive and kick he ends up trapped in the post and the defense locks down on the perimeter so we need another perimeter player to be there to re initiate the offense. So far I think that Beno has done a good job of that so basically again I want Beno number 2.

Also for the 1st time last night I saw what our intended offense is meant to look like, and really it isn't bad at all. It's a lot of drive and dump to a big man and allow the big man to make a decision weather to pass or shoot. This works very well when the ball ends up in Cousins or Thompsons hands who are very able and willing passers but when ever the ball ends up in Dalembert or Landry's hands the offense goes stagnant because Dally makes mistakes and bad passes and isn't really an offensive threat and landry isn't a passer he is a finisher, which is fine but it really causes problems in the offense.

I think if we can look to move Landry for someone that could fill that role of 2 guard or PG that is a good passer and shooter then it would be very benificial for our who team.

I'm thinking something like this.
Daniel Gibson
Rudy Fernandez
Toney Douglas
Jason Terry

[Alex_De_Large]

Completely agree, Evans is like Wade, i would understand the need of a PG if it wasnt for Udrih, but doesnt make sense to look for a pg having Udrih and Evans, team has other needs.

[longfellow44]

^^ I think that getting a 3rd guard and moving Landry who is a ball stopper are our most pressing needs for this team.

[pillwenney]

The issue isn't really about passing. What a PG does is set up the offense and organize things. Tyreke doesn't do this. Lebron and Wade are both playmakers and neither are PGs. That's one reason why they still have Arroyo starting there as opposed to say, House. You still need somebody, generally, whose job it is to really set things up.

This is especially true when you're a team without a real offensive system, like ours. It's one thing if you have the triangle, or something where it's set up and everyone basically knows what to do. But above all else right now, we need someone to keep this team organized. We're not struggling because of a lack of talent. We're struggling because the players very often don't know what the hell they're supposed to be doing. A lot of this falls on the coach, but part of it is also falls back to the lack of a true floor general. With that said, Beno does an okay job of kinda sorta filling this role....sometimes.

I would look to the 06 Heat. J-Will would certainly be classified as more of a pure PG. It didn't stop Wade from controlling the ball a lot. They still were better off with somebody to set up the offense and let Wade focus more primarily on being the main guy than they were with, say, Damon Jones the year before.

Tyreke certainly does struggle to play off the ball, but this is an issue that needs to be fixed, not avoided. We can't keep catering to every little thing with our young players. It's not good for the franchise, but way more so, it's not good for them. If we just go "Well. I guess Tyreke just needs to have the ball all the time," he won't grow as a player. He doesn't need to become Rip Hamilton, but he does need to learn some very basic things about playing off the ball, and more broadly, playing in an organized system that isn't just him isolating and kicking when the defense collapses. That simply won't win rings in the long run. He has to learn how to play within a more structured concept, and that includes learning to play off the ball. And it's not even just for a PG that is going to organize everything. In a basic sense, it'll be crucial for him to learn how to play off of Demarcus better. Demarcus has already shown an ability to hit cutters when he's doubled in the post, but that won't include Tyreke if he doesn't learn. Right now, I'm not sure that Tyreke is aware of the fact that he's allowed to run while not dribbling a basketball.

Beno is a very good fit next to Tyreke in many respects. Like I said, he's not even really a bad floor general. He's just not good enough, and especially not on a team that has no real organized offense. He's not really a floor general, more of a floor Sergeant (or something). With that said, I think you're right, LS, that we don't need a total playmaking PG either. That's not going to be a great fit. A CP3 or a Nash isn't the answer here. So who is the answer?


As a temporary solution to not only be that floor general, but to give this team some very basic, strong veteran leadership. He is exactly what this team needs for the next couple of years. Now obviously, he wouldn't be the long term option. We'd have to find that elsewhere. But I think that skillset is really the answer here. Petrie needs to stop looking for scoring PGs like Aaron Brooks and look for somebody who will get this team playing like something other than a bunch of high schoolers in a pickup game.

[BrooklynBulls]

I agree with Mr. Mitch Weber.

I think Udrih is a keeper as a backup. But the guy that should supplant him probably isn't Chauncey Billups, since...you're not winning right now, leader or no leader. He'll make the pieces look good and help development and chemistry, I'd think. So it's worth a shot. But still...

The answer is probably in the draft. But barring that, I think you need to take a young floor general whose all-around game perhaps isn't as developed, thus making him potentially available.

I suggest Eric Maynor. He's a young PG permanently stuck behind Westbrook, and he'll be due to get paid once Durant, Westbrook, Green have gotten paid. OKC likely doesn't have the pocketbook for it. They may, in a year, prefer to trade him for an asset. Maynor IS pretty developed. He deserves a lot more time than he's been getting. But despite him being pretty good, Russell Westbrook is simply far better.

[king125]

^^ I think that getting a 3rd guard and moving Landry who is a ball stopper are our most pressing needs for this team.

Marcus Thornton!

[dozencousins]

We need a point guard general not just an average point guard
There is no reason to take on a contract that has a few years or more remaining unless that guy is an impact star point guard as our season is on serious life support as a team !
We either get the impact point guard now or we wait until the draft or sign an impact one via free agency their is no pressing need right now do make a move that will hurt us financially next year & their after unless its for a key player !
I like BENO but if we were to aquire another point guard this season I could easily see him being dealt in a package deal that is to say that the KINGS truly feel they will get their point guard via draft or aquire an impact point guard via trade !
Landry I am 95% sure he will get traded but for all we know he could be dealt for a future #1 pick , packaged will GARCIA or BENO , or even a much larger deal if the KINGS want to gain more in expiring contracts towards next season .
I though I like both GARCIA & BENO I do not see either in our future plans especially GARCIA I expect this season 1 or both will get dealt likely to contending teams . If we dont see him in our future plans we could possibly buy out DALY to save some $$$$$$$$$$$$ & let him sign with a contender .
If the KINGS no longer see LANDRY as a guy they will have to overpay to keep he will get dealt no doubt !
The KINGS are in prime striking position to have alot of $$$$$$$$$$$ to get impact players on our team especially if we end up with a hard cap or the teams salary cap goes down next season for all NBA teams if so we are in great position to sign big time guys or have other teams forced to trade us some of their assetts to take on their salary dump so they casn be under the cap !
Their is no need to rush . Petrie has a plan & this trade deadline more so than the past 1-3 years will be the most telling as to what direction we will go in towards the draft & next season.

No need not to be smart & make the right moves to help us next year & their after do not take on more salary unless it greatly helps us next season & there after !

[SacKingsPejaFan]

100% disagree.

Yes Tyreke needs the ball to be effective but he doesn't bring it up every play, nor should he. We squander so many possessions when Udrih or Head bring it up because really often they shoot before even attempting to run a play. They are selfish and get flustered by defenses too easily and, in panic or inability to do anything else, shoot way too much. When people like me say we need a pass-first point guard, that is what we're looking at.

Comparing Tyreke to Wade/Lebron is misleading. When the latter two didn't play together, they were regularly taking more than 20 shots per game plus tons of free throws (meaning maybe 30'ish "attempts"), and if you watched, they had the ball in their hands way more often than Tyreke does. For the record, Tyreke shoots on average 16 times per game. The fact of the matter is, Head and Udrih have the ball in their hands an awful lot, and personally, I would like a better player to play their role.

Saying a pass-first PG "who needs the ball to be effective" would ruin Tyreke is making a straw man argument. If you assume that, of course you win, but that's not the opposing argument. It is in no way a necessary condition that pass-first PG's need the ball in their hands to be effective. When they get the ball, they just make smart plays and actually run the offense. They would pass to DMC or Landry in the post instead of using every single pick and roll opportunity to shoot it themselves. They would throw ally-oops to Dalembert instead of trying to post him up. And the type of guy I'm looking for would also hit the three at a higher clip than Udrih's putrid 26%. For the record, Udrih shoots 2.3 threes per game and only make 26%. And he shoots just as many times per game as Carl Landry. Think about that and our record next time you posit that he's good enough going forward.

[longfellow44]

^^ I think that getting a 3rd guard and moving Landry who is a ball stopper are our most pressing needs for this team.

Marcus Thornton!

Thornton is a shooter and finisher not a guy who could ever be trusted to set up an offense. So no he wouldnt be an option.

[The Beam King]

I'm with Mitch on this. Ideally we need a PG that set up the offense, hit a wide open three and defend those really quick, pesky PG's that are dominating the league right now. I know that's a lot to ask, but those are the top 3 attributes in a PG with shooting topping that list followed by setting up the offense.

[SacKingZZZ]

Totally agree. In fact, a "true" PG is only going to get in the way of the young core we have. Unless that guy is >>> Evans he can take a flying leap. What this team needs to do is continue to build an offense around it's two best players, pure and simple. If the others don't like it? Join that "true" PG on his flying leap.

[Dustin5566]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1072919

Solves some of our problems

PG that can set up an offense
good deep shooters
Veterans
Landry goooone

[king125]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1072919

Solves some of our problems

PG that can set up an offense
good deep shooters
Veterans
Landry goooone

Would be surprised to see the Kings do this because they actually have to spend a little more money.....but it would be a great deal for us for sure, plus we still get to keep our top 5 pick for 2011.

[dozencousins]

I am extremely confident between the 16th & 20th this month we will aquire ARRON BROOKS from HOUSTON in a deal for CARL LANDRY.
I know for a fact we are in very serious talks with HOUSTON & the hold up is BROOKS cant be dealt until at least the 15th this month .
My main concern is will we have to overpay to resign Brooks ?
With the fact we would likely draft a point guard with our # 1 pick if we aquire Brooks everyone on this board should expect Beno to be dealt as well at least before the deadline .
I believe seriously that both the KINGS & Houston will both be very aggressive in having multiple trades with teams before the deadline .

3 guys we have that will likely be dealt are LANDRY , BENO & GARCIA also keep your eyes on CASSPI though CASSPI is the most likely to stay between the 4 .

Mark my words we will make a move around the dates i stated above without a doubt .

Beno & Garcia if dealt will likely be dealt in seperate trades to contenders

stay tuned ........

[LeBron's Time]

how about this

landry and kings 2nd round pick to houston for patrick patterson and houston 1st round pick. giving a chance, patterson isn't a bad player, he can played inside and out, better outside game than landry.

we suck this year but its ok, next year draft is a pg draft....irving, knight, selby, joseph (all good freshmen). i prefer irving or knight or selby over brooks as tyreke backcourt mate.

this is our version of big 3..... tyreke, cousins, next year lottery draft pick

[ICMTM]

The issue isn't really about passing. What a PG does is set up the offense and organize things. Tyreke doesn't do this. Lebron and Wade are both playmakers and neither are PGs. That's one reason why they still have Arroyo starting there as opposed to say, House. You still need somebody, generally, whose job it is to really set things up.

This is especially true when you're a team without a real offensive system, like ours. It's one thing if you have the triangle, or something where it's set up and everyone basically knows what to do. But above all else right now, we need someone to keep this team organized. We're not struggling because of a lack of talent. We're struggling because the players very often don't know what the hell they're supposed to be doing. A lot of this falls on the coach, but part of it is also falls back to the lack of a true floor general. With that said, Beno does an okay job of kinda sorta filling this role....sometimes.

I would look to the 06 Heat. J-Will would certainly be classified as more of a pure PG. It didn't stop Wade from controlling the ball a lot. They still were better off with somebody to set up the offense and let Wade focus more primarily on being the main guy than they were with, say, Damon Jones the year before.

Tyreke certainly does struggle to play off the ball, but this is an issue that needs to be fixed, not avoided. We can't keep catering to every little thing with our young players. It's not good for the franchise, but way more so, it's not good for them. If we just go "Well. I guess Tyreke just needs to have the ball all the time," he won't grow as a player. He doesn't need to become Rip Hamilton, but he does need to learn some very basic things about playing off the ball, and more broadly, playing in an organized system that isn't just him isolating and kicking when the defense collapses. That simply won't win rings in the long run. He has to learn how to play within a more structured concept, and that includes learning to play off the ball. And it's not even just for a PG that is going to organize everything. In a basic sense, it'll be crucial for him to learn how to play off of Demarcus better. Demarcus has already shown an ability to hit cutters when he's doubled in the post, but that won't include Tyreke if he doesn't learn. Right now, I'm not sure that Tyreke is aware of the fact that he's allowed to run while not dribbling a basketball.

Beno is a very good fit next to Tyreke in many respects. Like I said, he's not even really a bad floor general. He's just not good enough, and especially not on a team that has no real organized offense. He's not really a floor general, more of a floor Sergeant (or something). With that said, I think you're right, LS, that we don't need a total playmaking PG either. That's not going to be a great fit. A CP3 or a Nash isn't the answer here. So who is the answer?


As a temporary solution to not only be that floor general, but to give this team some very basic, strong veteran leadership. He is exactly what this team needs for the next couple of years. Now obviously, he wouldn't be the long term option. We'd have to find that elsewhere. But I think that skillset is really the answer here. Petrie needs to stop looking for scoring PGs like Aaron Brooks and look for somebody who will get this team playing like something other than a bunch of high schoolers in a pickup game.

100% agree! I've been saying Tyreke doesn't need to work on his shot nearly as much as he needs to work on involving other people. I feel it's a skill that can be learned. If he can create for others as well it will also clear up the lane.

[Alex_De_Large]

Brooks for Landry deal makes the Kings go small BUT all the way with Greene playing PF some minutes.

[pillwenney]

Totally agree. In fact, a "true" PG is only going to get in the way of the young core we have. Unless that guy is >>> Evans he can take a flying leap. What this team needs to do is continue to build an offense around it's two best players, pure and simple. If the others don't like it? Join that "true" PG on his flying leap.

Yeah, or it'll actually set up a confident, organized offense that is designed to use them. Again,a true PG doesn't mean a playmaker a la Nash or Paul. It means somebody who's primary job is to set up the offense and get players involved. It allows Tyreke to focus on the part of his game where he's so great--playmaking.