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How high does his ceiling go? Has he reached his max potential already? Can the fans expect to see him get better after his large pay day? If a trade goes down after the draft, what kind of package can the Kings get for Thomas assuming the market for him is $8M/per year.

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He has not his cap at all.

He will become a better facilitator in time, maybe nothing spectacular there but better. He works as hard as anyone else in the league to improve his game, has fantastic passion and also respect for coaching and the old timers. Barring injury he improves.

This little fella has been under estimated his entire life, I won't do it to him.

His value to others? Depends on their roster, level of competitiveness, cap room etc.

He can improve his shooting and his playmaking ability. So basically he can become a smarter player.

I think before the wrist injury he was a 50-40-90 threat.

He can improve to some degree in all areas, but it's hard to see his scoring getting much better. He's a very good shooter (the only area where he may have a little room for improvement), he can get into the lane at will and he has all the tricks for scoring around the basket at his size. The good news with that is he really doesn't need to improve much with scoring. He's already damn near elite in this area.

His actual playmaking ability is really quite solid too. Offensively, it's his decision-making that really needs work, and while it sounds like a simple thing, I'm not totally sold that will improve. He tried to improve it around right after the all-star break, and his scoring suffered with both efficiency and proficiency. He himself said he was thinking too much and not just playing because he was trying to be more of a distributor. The problem seemed to be that he had stopped playing instinctively and was trying to play with his head, and it wasn't working for him. I think the ability to think while playing rather than relying on instincts is what separates the great point guards from the great players who happen to be PG size.

Being a scoring PG isn't necessarily a bad thing at all--especially when you can score like Isaiah can. But not having a working sense of decision-making--what plays to make when? That hurts. That's crucial. We don't need a pass first PG. But we do need a good decision-maker. Isaiah isn't that, and I have questions that he will be.

His D can improve as well, and I have faith it will, but I think he tops out as a mediocre defender. I think he get to a point where he's not a big liability, and adequate for a starting lineup if he has good defenders around him. But that's about it. Size isn't so much an issue for him in post-ups, or even in isos all that much. But it just kills him in close outs, and taking up space in rotations. So he has to improve his awareness on D to reach his potential there.

pillwenney wrote:Offensively, it's his decision-making that really needs work, and while it sounds like a simple thing, I'm not totally sold that will improve. He tried to improve it around right after the all-star break, and his scoring suffered with both efficiency and proficiency. He himself said he was thinking too much and not just playing because he was trying to be more of a distributor. The problem seemed to be that he had stopped playing instinctively and was trying to play with his head, and it wasn't working for him. I think the ability to think while playing rather than relying on instincts is what separates the great point guards from the great players who happen to be PG size.

I believe this improves with experience. When Ray first filled in for him late in the season he came across like a rookie. After those first shaky games, coach or himself commented that the game would slow down for him allowing him to play to his potential. This is just a game to game example of what I hope will happen as IT matures from season to season as a player. Studying the game both in and out of the game will only raise his IQ and make him a better decision-maker over time.

enderwilson wrote:

pillwenney wrote:Offensively, it's his decision-making that really needs work, and while it sounds like a simple thing, I'm not totally sold that will improve. He tried to improve it around right after the all-star break, and his scoring suffered with both efficiency and proficiency. He himself said he was thinking too much and not just playing because he was trying to be more of a distributor. The problem seemed to be that he had stopped playing instinctively and was trying to play with his head, and it wasn't working for him. I think the ability to think while playing rather than relying on instincts is what separates the great point guards from the great players who happen to be PG size.

I believe this improves with experience. When Ray first filled in for him late in the season he came across like a rookie. After those first shaky games, coach or himself commented that the game would slow down for him allowing him to play to his potential. This is just a game to game example of what I hope will happen as IT matures from season to season as a player. Studying the game both in and out of the game will only raise his IQ and make him a better decision-maker over time.

Except I think Ray just has a knack for running a team more than IT does. He sees the game differently. Ray isn't nearly the scorer that IT is, but you could tell his has a more intuitive feel for how to run the point (in my opinion). I'm not sure IT finds that. I think he will certainly improve in the decision making area, but I feel like he'll do best in a system that asks him to be who he is -- a cold blooded scorer. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

I feel Isaiah thrives when the game is loose...ie transistion plays, broken plays, bad defenses. He has a knack for attacking weaknesses in the defense. I do feel though he can be stopped if and when other defenses want to do so. To me that screams 2nd unit.

The only thing that makes him a PG is his height. If IT was 6'5" he'd be a SG, and probably an All-Star. Scoring the basketball isn't a problem for us, and it really never has been. We need to stop people. IT will never be that guy.

ICMTM wrote:I feel Isaiah thrives when the game is loose...ie transistion plays, broken plays, bad defenses. He has a knack for attacking weaknesses in the defense. I do feel though he can be stopped if and when other defenses want to do so. To me that screams 2nd unit.

I can recall a number of times during a one-possession IT was forced into a turnover late. Those instances would support your claim.

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SmellingColors wrote:

enderwilson wrote:

pillwenney wrote:Offensively, it's his decision-making that really needs work, and while it sounds like a simple thing, I'm not totally sold that will improve. He tried to improve it around right after the all-star break, and his scoring suffered with both efficiency and proficiency. He himself said he was thinking too much and not just playing because he was trying to be more of a distributor. The problem seemed to be that he had stopped playing instinctively and was trying to play with his head, and it wasn't working for him. I think the ability to think while playing rather than relying on instincts is what separates the great point guards from the great players who happen to be PG size.

I believe this improves with experience. When Ray first filled in for him late in the season he came across like a rookie. After those first shaky games, coach or himself commented that the game would slow down for him allowing him to play to his potential. This is just a game to game example of what I hope will happen as IT matures from season to season as a player. Studying the game both in and out of the game will only raise his IQ and make him a better decision-maker over time.

Except I think Ray just has a knack for running a team more than IT does. He sees the game differently. Ray isn't nearly the scorer that IT is, but you could tell his has a more intuitive feel for how to run the point (in my opinion). I'm not sure IT finds that. I think he will certainly improve in the decision making area, but I feel like he'll do best in a system that asks him to be who he is -- a cold blooded scorer. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

This exactly. Isaiah was a senior when he was a rookie and just finished his third year. The time to wait for him to learn how to really be a PG is dwindling kind of quickly, I'd say. There are examples of guys who took longer to get it and finally did, but those exceptions rather than the rule.

He still might be able to work it out, but I would at least be very wary of it.

The other thing I find interesting is Isaiah's stats are identical whether or not he starts on a per minute basis. To me that kind of tells you he's a "me 1st PG."

I just like him off the bench. I am pretty firm with that assessment.

SmellingColors wrote:Except I think Ray just has a knack for running a team more than IT does. He sees the game differently. Ray isn't nearly the scorer that IT is, but you could tell his has a more intuitive feel for how to run the point (in my opinion). I'm not sure IT finds that. I think he will certainly improve in the decision making area, but I feel like he'll do best in a system that asks him to be who he is -- a cold blooded scorer. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

Decision making is something I equate to a combination of IQ and experience (wisdom). Ray's superior decision making is in part because he has a higher BB IQ, but also just a better BB education and coaching than what Isaiah had. Room for improvement in Isaiah's case is greatest if he learns from the experience he's been gaining to become a better decision maker and facilitator. His assists have remained pretty consistent when considering his time spent in the game. If he can increase this without increasing his minutes, then I'll be happy with him as a starter.

But...

ICMTM wrote:The other thing I find interesting is Isaiah's stats are identical whether or not he starts on a per minute basis. To me that kind of tells you he's a "me 1st PG."

I just like him off the bench. I am pretty firm with that assessment.

... I would be happy with Ray starting as well with IT coming off the bench. I tend to favor smart players over athletic players anyway and Ray can facilitate the offense though Cuz and Rudy. If Ray improves his outside shot over the summer along with BMac, this will spread the defense and open up the paint for Cuz and Rudy to dominate.

But do we want to spend the kind of money Isaiah will command in FA if he's going to come off the bench?

enderwilson wrote:
Decision making is something I equate to a combination of IQ and experience (wisdom). Ray's superior decision making is in part because he has a higher BB IQ, but also just a better BB education and coaching than what Isaiah had. Room for improvement in Isaiah's case is greatest if he learns from the experience he's been gaining to become a better decision maker and facilitator. His assists have remained pretty consistent when considering his time spent in the game. If he can increase this without increasing his minutes, then I'll be happy with him as a starter.

Yeah I can see that, but I also think IT just isn't that kind of player. He can certainly improve his decision making through experience, but he's a scoring PG first and foremost and he does it really well. I don't think we should try to make him into something that he's not, but rather put him in a position to excel at what he does best. To me that means putting him in an offense where he is the primary scoring option (6th man).

We don't need a ton of scoring from our starting PG when we already have Gay and Cousins on the floor and expect Bmac to contribute as well. We need someone who knows how to get the ball in the right hands at the right time. Right now, Ray gets that more than IT even as a rookie who pretty much didn't play up until the last part of the season. That says a lot about how Ray and IT see the game differently.

Right, so with the way the team is now, many of us can see the lineup being effective if Ray starts and IT comes off the bench as our future 6th man of the year candidate. The question is, do we want to spend 8 mil/per for IT if he's coming off the bench? IMO if he's relegated to the bench and continues to be an offensive threat, is able to improve on other aspects of his game, AND doesn't take offense to coming of the bench, then he's a virtual lock for the 6th man trophy, making the investment worthwhile. Otherwise, I'm not sure how he will take to no longer being the starter making the investment worrisome.

enderwilson wrote:Right, so with the way the team is now, many of us can see the lineup being effective if Ray starts and IT comes off the bench as our future 6th man of the year candidate. The question is, do we want to spend 8 mil/per for IT if he's coming off the bench? IMO if he's relegated to the bench and continues to be an offensive threat, is able to improve on other aspects of his game, AND doesn't take offense to coming of the bench, then he's a virtual lock for the 6th man trophy, making the investment worthwhile. Otherwise, I'm not sure how he will take to no longer being the starter making the investment worrisome.

I think it's fair to say that IT carries a chip on his shoulder. He has made it no secret that he's approaching free agency with a "family first" mindset. With that in mind, will IT be happy in a 6th man role?

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I'm happy to see Isaiah Thomas walk.

ICMTM wrote:I'm happy to see Isaiah Thomas walk.

Are you ready to insert McCallum as a starter? I think he can be eventually but doing so this season may be a year pre mature.

I think Isaiah is a great energy player and I think his ceiling is the equivalent of Bobby Jackson's role from the glory days. Spark plug 6th man off the bench.

What's the consensus on McCallum in general? Didn't get a chance to see him play this season unfortunately. Is he realistically a possible quality starter for this team?

City of Trees wrote:

ICMTM wrote:I'm happy to see Isaiah Thomas walk.

Are you ready to insert McCallum as a starter? I think he can be eventually but doing so this season may be a year pre mature.

I'm neutral with him walking, our cap flexibility is terrible atm.

I just want to feel like there is some long term vision here.

If they let him walk I don't want a Carl Landry/Jason Thompson/Kenny Thomas/Marcus Thornton and on and on scenario with his replacement.

I also do not want him to become one of them, although it feel a lot less likely with him, but I'm not sure what is a fair price for him, not sure how they want to fill out the roster long term etc.

I have to trust Pete with this, with the understanding that long term he has his reasons.

TyFrekey wrote:I think Isaiah is a great energy player and I think his ceiling is the equivalent of Bobby Jackson's role from the glory days. Spark plug 6th man off the bench.

What's the consensus on McCallum in general? Didn't get a chance to see him play this season unfortunately. Is he realistically a possible quality starter for this team?

Possibly, but we have Gay & Cousins, Ray can facilitate a little, and can play D.

All we need is a guy who can facilitate and play D. Be able to run the pick/roll and spot shoot. Maybe be capable to get his own shot off with short time left on the shot block.

Ray can do those things and is incredibly cheap.

Would the majority of the NBA want Ray as a starter? No probably not, he works for us now. once we get some cap space and make further roster adjustments, maybe not.

And he could continue to grow and further improve.

He does nothing substantially elite or high, but we do not need him to.