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Back to the horn set with Zbo and Koufos. Lol. They don't even get a look until 6 seconds on the clock. smh. Great for Cuz ball, bad for Fox ball.

Bogi can get cold from outside, just like against Slovenia in Euro-basket final .

Popovich wrote:Bogi can get cold from outside, just like against Slovenia in Euro-basket final .

But can go from cold to hot quickly too.

Popovich wrote:

Popovich wrote:Bogi can get cold from outside, just like against Slovenia in Euro-basket final .

But can go from cold to hot quickly too.

They start running pick and roll through him and he's a different player.

This game showed how dangerous Fox can be the drive and dish. He sliced and diced when he had space to do so.

It was also good to see Jackson get some confidence. He put more legs into his 3's and they looked good.

Boy, have we got the wrong coach...assuming we are trying to win of course...

Dave is a win-now coach.

I wonder if there is a disconnect between the coaching and the front office? Does Vlade prefer his team to tank for a better lotto positioning or win games in the last stretch of the season? Almost every team in the bottom 10 are actively tanking and it looks like we are the only team that is actively searching for wins.

The Kings' tank for tonight was running at 100%!

KF10 wrote:Dave is a win-now coach.

I wonder if there is a disconnect between the coaching and the front office? Does Vlade prefer his team to tank for a better lotto positioning or win games in the last stretch of the season? Almost every team in the bottom 10 are actively tanking and it looks like we are the only team that is actively searching for wins.

From what I recall around the trade deadline it sounded like Vlade is very hands off, which is not a good thing considering the way the year has turned out so far.

SacKingZZZ wrote:

KF10 wrote:Dave is a win-now coach.

I wonder if there is a disconnect between the coaching and the front office? Does Vlade prefer his team to tank for a better lotto positioning or win games in the last stretch of the season? Almost every team in the bottom 10 are actively tanking and it looks like we are the only team that is actively searching for wins.

From what I recall around the trade deadline it sounded like Vlade is very hands off, which is not a good thing considering the way the year has turned out so far.

I get how the front office is letting Dave do his thing without too much hand-holding from the upper management but if they are not in the same page (e.g. different goals), why let it continue to happen?

Here is a snapshot of Dave's Kings team:

PTS/G: 99.2 (29th of 30)
Opp PTS/G: 107.2 (17th of 30)
SRS: -7.54 (29th of 30)
Pace: 95.1 (29th of 30)
Off Rtg: 104.0 (30th of 30)
Def Rtg: 112.3 (29th of 30)
Expected W-L: 17-51 (29th of 30)

FT rate: .197 (30th of 30)
3PAr: .277 (28th of 30)

This team stinks -- even if Dave's goal is to win every game. I get it. His job contains pressure and he is looking out for his own interest when it comes to future jobs but I don't like it because it jeopardizes lotto positioning. And given how close clustered the bottom teams are, we can't afford too many (if at all) "moral victories" imo.

Is Dave the right guy for the job? A good coach is able to play to his player's strength not the other way around. Which is what Dave is doing. He is putting his incompatible system to a bunch of players that are antithesis to the slow, grind basketball. It may work for Z-Bo but not for the rest of the team.

Dave's system when it comes to FT/3PA rates are outdated. The league is all about the 3PT shot and the ability to get to the line (& converting). Dave's Kings are doing neither. Even if he tries to slow down the pace to a snail rate, his team is still hemorrhaging when it comes to defense -- specifically giving up 3s (dead last).

KF10 wrote:

SacKingZZZ wrote:

KF10 wrote:Dave is a win-now coach.

I wonder if there is a disconnect between the coaching and the front office? Does Vlade prefer his team to tank for a better lotto positioning or win games in the last stretch of the season? Almost every team in the bottom 10 are actively tanking and it looks like we are the only team that is actively searching for wins.

From what I recall around the trade deadline it sounded like Vlade is very hands off, which is not a good thing considering the way the year has turned out so far.

I get how the front office is letting Dave do his thing without too much hand-holding from the upper management but if they are not in the same page (e.g. different goals), why let it continue to happen?

Here is a snapshot of Dave's Kings team:

PTS/G: 99.2 (29th of 30)
Opp PTS/G: 107.2 (17th of 30)
SRS: -7.54 (29th of 30)
Pace: 95.1 (29th of 30)
Off Rtg: 104.0 (30th of 30)
Def Rtg: 112.3 (29th of 30)
Expected W-L: 17-51 (29th of 30)

FT rate: .197 (30th of 30)
3PAr: .277 (28th of 30)

This team stinks -- even if Dave's goal is to win every game. I get it. His job contains pressure and he is looking out for his own interest when it comes to future jobs but I don't like it because it jeopardizes lotto positioning. And given how close clustered the bottom teams are, we can't afford too many (if at all) "moral victories" imo.

Is Dave the right guy for the job? A good coach is able to play to his player's strength not the other way around. Which is what Dave is doing. He is putting his incompatible system to a bunch of players that are antithesis to the slow, grind basketball. It may work for Z-Bo but not for the rest of the team.

Dave's system when it comes to FT/3PA rates are outdated. The league is all about the 3PT shot and the ability to get to the line (& converting). Dave's Kings are doing neither. Even if he tries to slow down the pace to a snail rate, his team is still hemorrhaging when it comes to defense -- specifically giving up 3s (dead last).

Yet despite being last or almost last in all of those categories, we probably end the season with about as many wins as we got on average during the Boogie era. Looking at the remaining schedule, I see maybe 6-7 more wins which would put us exactly at Boogie's average. Now who that says most about, I don't know, but I do know we beat Cleveland, Golden State, Denver, Philly (twice) and New Orleans (twice) which I would put on the back of Joerger's coaching so I think we just need to patient with this season and not overreact.

Hell, we didn't even know which young guys would be a part of the young core going forward until like January/February evidenced by the moves we made at the deadline and then trade rumors swirling around some of them during that time. The pace has picked up in February/March so far too, both months have been our team's high in FGA and 3PA, attempts from deep specifically have really seen a jump.

codydaze wrote:Yet despite being last or almost last in all of those categories, we probably end the season with about as many wins as we got on average during the Boogie era. Looking at the remaining schedule, I see maybe 6-7 more wins which would put us exactly at Boogie's average. Now who that says most about, I don't know, but I do know we beat Cleveland, Golden State, Denver, Philly (twice) and New Orleans (twice) which I would put on the back of Joerger's coaching so I think we just need to patient with this season and not overreact.

Hell, we didn't even know which young guys would be a part of the young core going forward until like January/February evidenced by the moves we made at the deadline and then trade rumors swirling around some of them during that time. The pace has picked up in February/March so far too, both months have been our team's high in FGA and 3PA, attempts from deep specifically have really seen a jump.

Squeezing out 6-7 games due to coaching is a positive thing but I wonder how much more Dave could have gotten if he played to his player's collective strengths? Let's not forget a good handful of those wins were always supplemented with vets playing a great game. The youth do get their own share of credit but it's mostly Dave and the vets that propelled the team to victory in most nights.

The problem that I have is to what end we continue to rely on the vets and Dave's archaic system? The Kings are getting left behind when it comes to style of play and most (if not, all) of vets are ancient. It's a double no-no in today's league.

Which youngsters were question marks? Papa G? Malachi? Those players were easy to recognize that they were definitely in the outs. Everyone else are practically in the youth core. It doesn't took a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

February stats:

Pace: 98.2 (28th out of 30th)
http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=PACE&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=5

3PA: 26.3 (24th out of 30th) -- despite Kings being 10th in 3P%
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=5

March stats:

Pace: 96.7 (29th out of 30th)
http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=PACE&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=6

3PA: 27.3 (20th out of 30th) -- 3P%: 33.5% (28th out of 30th) They are shooting more despite increasing more 3PA. The opposite from previous month.
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=6

Where is the jump? I don't see it.

From all my years of watching basketball, if you are a bad team, the post-all star break is all fluff when it comes to stats. A lot of the teams are resting their guys and are "taking it easy" until playoff time starts. The ones that are still into it are those who battle for playoff positioning. The rest of the league are padding their stats and bad basketball is being played. I don't take anything the last two or so months seriously. We already have data and information pre-all star to conclude that Dave is playing an archaic system. I'm actually surprised that his (offensive) numbers haven't seen a tick up into the green yet. During this time of the year, the bad teams pad their own team stats. One thing I give credit to Joerger is that he is consistent to his system -- e.g. pace and 3PA rate still ranks close to the bottom

KF10 wrote:Squeezing out 6-7 games due to coaching is a positive thing but I wonder how much more Dave could have gotten if he played to his player's collective strengths? Let's not forget a good handful of those wins were always supplemented with vets playing a great game. The youth do get their own share of credit but it's mostly Dave and the vets that propelled the team to victory in most nights.

But is that what we want? Don't we want to lose as much as possible and get a good pick? Maybe playing the guys out of their comfort zone so they improve in areas that are outside of their strengths is the development plan for this season, it's a bold claim but something I actually believe may be the best case. You aren't always going to be able to play the game super fast, so having these guys learn to play in the half court set will be valuable. All the ZBO isos aren't valuable but I think it's been exaggerated as a problem. He gets 13 FGAs per game, it's not like he's putting up 16-17 shots a night.

The problem that I have is to what end we continue to rely on the vets and Dave's archaic system? The Kings are getting left behind when it comes to style of play and most (if not, all) of vets are ancient. It's a double no-no in today's league.

Next season when the younger guys are ready to take on bigger roles and the vets move to the bench.

Which youngsters were question marks? Papa G? Malachi? Those players were easy to recognize that they were definitely in the outs. Everyone else are practically in the youth core. It doesn't took a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Skal's name was thrown around quite a bit too. Jackson's fluctuations in minutes lead me to believe they were getting a feel for him as well.

February stats:

Pace: 98.2 (28th out of 30th)
http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=PACE&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=5

3PA: 26.3 (24th out of 30th) -- despite Kings being 10th in 3P%
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=5

March stats:

Pace: 96.7 (29th out of 30th)
http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=PACE&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=6

3PA: 27.3 (20th out of 30th) -- 3P%: 33.5% (28th out of 30th) They are shooting more despite increasing more 3PA. The opposite from previous month.
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=6

Where is the jump? I don't see it.

February and March have been team highs in FGA and 3PA by 3-4 attempts, that's the jump I'm talking about. They've even increased from February to March too. I'm also not a proponent of Pace will lead to wins. Boston, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Utah and San Antonio play with paces of 96.1, 95.9, 95.7, 95.4 and 95.1. Then you have Lakers and Phoenix both in the top 4 of pace. Again, I'm not worried about Joerger this season, I think he's doing a fine job. If we're still rolling out Koufos, Zbo and Temple 20+ minutes a night next year on the other hand...

codydaze wrote:...

But is that what we want? Don't we want to lose as much as possible and get a good pick? Maybe playing the guys out of their comfort zone so they improve in areas that are outside of their strengths is the development plan for this season, it's a bold claim but something I actually believe may be the best case. You aren't always going to be able to play the game super fast, so having these guys learn to play in the half court set will be valuable. All the ZBO isos aren't valuable but I think it's been exaggerated as a problem. He gets 13 FGAs per game, it's not like he's putting up 16-17 shots a night.

Z-Bo leads the team in FGA/gm, USG%. A 36 year old player who is at the end of his career is leading the Kings in FGA/gm, USG%. I like to repeat myself.

Yes, at this point of the season, I want the Kings to tank their games AND play their youth as much minutes as possible. I don't want to see Dave actively searching for wins AND play the vets.

Next season when the younger guys are ready to take on bigger roles and the vets move to the bench.

Let's hope that is the case.

Skal's name was thrown around quite a bit too. Jackson's fluctuations in minutes lead me to believe they were getting a feel for him as well.

So, two players that were in question? Meh, that's typical for any team. Heck, on the other hand, having Skal's name thrown around in the first place is silly to start off with. I don't know what's Dave's deal when he had Skal in such a bipolar place when it comes to PT. Such a weird thing.

JJ is a rookie and a previous 1st round pick. So, it was expected to see some type of minute tug.

February and March have been team highs in FGA and 3PA by 3-4 attempts, that's the jump I'm talking about. They've even increased from February to March too. I'm also not a proponent of Pace will lead to wins. Boston, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Utah and San Antonio play with paces of 96.1, 95.9, 95.7, 95.4 and 95.1. Then you have Lakers and Phoenix both in the top 4 of pace. Again, I'm not worried about Joerger this season, I think he's doing a fine job. If we're still rolling out Koufos, Zbo and Temple 20+ minutes a night next year on the other hand...

Not a big jump at all relative to the league -- which is what the Kings compete against. It's like improving your F to a D-. Not good enough.

I'm not a huge proponent in leading the league in pace either but seeing the Kings at the bottom in pace with the type of player personnel on the roster, it is infuriating. Would you force your grandpa to train in a sprint race or have him dedicate his time in perfecting his brisk walk? I know my answer.

If I were to give Dave a grade, it would be a C...maybe C-. I wouldn't say he was doing a "fine job"

codydaze wrote:

KF10 wrote:

SacKingZZZ wrote:

From what I recall around the trade deadline it sounded like Vlade is very hands off, which is not a good thing considering the way the year has turned out so far.

I get how the front office is letting Dave do his thing without too much hand-holding from the upper management but if they are not in the same page (e.g. different goals), why let it continue to happen?

Here is a snapshot of Dave's Kings team:

PTS/G: 99.2 (29th of 30)
Opp PTS/G: 107.2 (17th of 30)
SRS: -7.54 (29th of 30)
Pace: 95.1 (29th of 30)
Off Rtg: 104.0 (30th of 30)
Def Rtg: 112.3 (29th of 30)
Expected W-L: 17-51 (29th of 30)

FT rate: .197 (30th of 30)
3PAr: .277 (28th of 30)

This team stinks -- even if Dave's goal is to win every game. I get it. His job contains pressure and he is looking out for his own interest when it comes to future jobs but I don't like it because it jeopardizes lotto positioning. And given how close clustered the bottom teams are, we can't afford too many (if at all) "moral victories" imo.

Is Dave the right guy for the job? A good coach is able to play to his player's strength not the other way around. Which is what Dave is doing. He is putting his incompatible system to a bunch of players that are antithesis to the slow, grind basketball. It may work for Z-Bo but not for the rest of the team.

Dave's system when it comes to FT/3PA rates are outdated. The league is all about the 3PT shot and the ability to get to the line (& converting). Dave's Kings are doing neither. Even if he tries to slow down the pace to a snail rate, his team is still hemorrhaging when it comes to defense -- specifically giving up 3s (dead last).

Yet despite being last or almost last in all of those categories, we probably end the season with about as many wins as we got on average during the Boogie era. Looking at the remaining schedule, I see maybe 6-7 more wins which would put us exactly at Boogie's average. Now who that says most about, I don't know, but I do know we beat Cleveland, Golden State, Denver, Philly (twice) and New Orleans (twice) which I would put on the back of Joerger's coaching so I think we just need to patient with this season and not overreact.

Hell, we didn't even know which young guys would be a part of the young core going forward until like January/February evidenced by the moves we made at the deadline and then trade rumors swirling around some of them during that time. The pace has picked up in February/March so far too, both months have been our team's high in FGA and 3PA, attempts from deep specifically have really seen a jump.

And have also utilized quite the crop of win now veterans for most of the year. When considering that the Kings reeeeally shouldn't be that bad. Bogdan and Fox are barely scraping the top 10 in mpg for rookies this year. The Kings beat Golden State with no Curry or Durant and saying you beat a team 1 out of 4 times or largely due to their injuries is like considering an 8 point loss "close". It's perception based. The style part has gone different ways. There have been moments where they seem to finally commit to it, then you have the last couple of games where he's literally standing on the side calling play after play in garbage time.

SacKingZZZ wrote:And have also utilized quite the crop of win now veterans for most of the year. When considering that the Kings reeeeally shouldn't be that bad. Bogdan and Fox are barely scraping the top 10 in mpg for rookies this year. The Kings beat Golden State with no Curry or Durant and saying you beat a team 1 out of 4 times or largely due to their injuries is like considering an 8 point loss "close". It's perception based. The style part has gone different ways. There have been moments where they seem to finally commit to it, then you have the last couple of games where he's literally standing on the side calling play after play in garbage time.

A team on the backs of a 36 year old Zbo, Garrett Temple and Kosta Koufos, the "win-now" vets really shouldn't be this bad? So you're saying this team should have been as good, or better, as any of the Boogie led teams?

KF10 wrote:If I were to give Dave a grade, it would be a C...maybe C-. I wouldn't say he was doing a "fine job"

It's been abundantly clear from day one that Joerger is an "earn your minutes" coach and has the young guys on a short leash. Guys like Zbo, Temple, Koufos, VC have proved they are NBA players so they'll get their minutes. I like the approach, I know you and a lot of other posters don't like it but I honestly think that's the best for development, it keeps them hungry. These guys are pros and if they're sulking about minutes then maybe that's not a guy you want around. Buddy goes through lapses of really bad defense, being turnover prone and then gets pulled and plays short minutes. I'm fine with that. Skal is a black hole on offense and gets pushed around on defense so he gets pulled and plays short minutes. I'm fine with that too.

I understand wanting to play the young guys more and play faster but there isn't one, single development plan that works for every coach/team/player. Phoenix plays their young guys a ton and, in my opinion, to what their perceived strengths as a team should be and look where they are.

codydaze wrote:

SacKingZZZ wrote:And have also utilized quite the crop of win now veterans for most of the year. When considering that the Kings reeeeally shouldn't be that bad. Bogdan and Fox are barely scraping the top 10 in mpg for rookies this year. The Kings beat Golden State with no Curry or Durant and saying you beat a team 1 out of 4 times or largely due to their injuries is like considering an 8 point loss "close". It's perception based. The style part has gone different ways. There have been moments where they seem to finally commit to it, then you have the last couple of games where he's literally standing on the side calling play after play in garbage time.

A team on the backs of a 36 year old Zbo, Garrett Temple and Kosta Koufos, the "win-now" vets really shouldn't be this bad? So you're saying this team should have been as good, or better, as any of the Boogie led teams?

You're looking at W/L when that's not really something that you can go by from year to year because it's relative to the competition at that time. The middle to the bottom has never been this mucky and the Kings have most certainly put players out there that you would expect to have more success against the really young or less talented teams. Statistically the Kings are right near the bottom when compared to those teams and no, that should not be. The better question would be if that Kings team last year would be in that window of playoff teams this year. I think it's possible, but even they by in large were a disappointment and IMO suffered the same the fate of an outdated defensive system.

codydaze wrote:

KF10 wrote:If I were to give Dave a grade, it would be a C...maybe C-. I wouldn't say he was doing a "fine job"

It's been abundantly clear from day one that Joerger is an "earn your minutes" coach and has the young guys on a short leash. Guys like Zbo, Temple, Koufos, VC have proved they are NBA players so they'll get their minutes. I like the approach, I know you and a lot of other posters don't like it but I honestly think that's the best for development, it keeps them hungry. These guys are pros and if they're sulking about minutes then maybe that's not a guy you want around. Buddy goes through lapses of really bad defense, being turnover prone and then gets pulled and plays short minutes. I'm fine with that. Skal is a black hole on offense and gets pushed around on defense so he gets pulled and plays short minutes. I'm fine with that too.

I understand wanting to play the young guys more and play faster but there isn't one, single development plan that works for every coach/team/player. Phoenix plays their young guys a ton and, in my opinion, to what their perceived strengths as a team should be and look where they are.

See, this is where it's hard to justify much of what he does without it being completely propped up by some sort of false reality that things are equal. Like with Skal, he doesn't play because he can't guard stretch 4's yet Zbo has carte blanche. Grizz fans told us there would be days like these.