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This team is killing me

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#141 » by BoogieTime » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:47 pm

codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
City of Trees wrote:Overreaction.

Bagley had a bad game just like everyone else not named Fox. Marvin did have a strong 4th quarter though. He'll be fine.

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I’m talking about what I’ve seen so far to date, which is disappointment. If we were to start a thread on the GB about it the KINGS would be panned for the pick


Most ridiculous take I've seen on this board.


Do you want me to start the thread now?

The pick is panned. You can keep your own reasoning for it not being in your mind
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#142 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:58 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
I’m talking about what I’ve seen so far to date, which is disappointment. If we were to start a thread on the GB about it the KINGS would be panned for the pick


Most ridiculous take I've seen on this board.


It's not super ridiculous when you compare it what Doncic is doing so far and the fact that the fans pretty near unanimously preferred him. It's gonna take many people a long time to get over us passing on him. Our relatively hot start is a current distraction from the reality that Doncic looks to be way better than Bagley.

Bagley is a year away from being a productive player. I'm not expecting anything from him this year. But the signs are there. He just needs to work hard on his game and learn the overall meta-game.


That has nothing to do with the way Bagley is playing though because as crazy of a concept as it may be for some people to grasp, it's possible that both guys can play well. All it shows is that the fans who wanted Doncic can't objectively watch Bagley play because he's already productive in the minutes he plays (19.6 pts/9.3 reb PER36 on 56% TS% and 16.5 PER).He goes through some defensive lapses at times but he already looks better defensively than he was projected to be. Top 4 in rookie scoring despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him, top 4 in rookie rebounding despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him here as well and 6th in PER among rookies who have played at least 200 minutes.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#143 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:59 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
I’m talking about what I’ve seen so far to date, which is disappointment. If we were to start a thread on the GB about it the KINGS would be panned for the pick


Most ridiculous take I've seen on this board.


Do you want me to start the thread now?

The pick is panned. You can keep your own reasoning for it not being in your mind


Dude, go look at the ROY thread on the GB, nobody is saying that.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#144 » by BoogieTime » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:04 pm

codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Most ridiculous take I've seen on this board.


Do you want me to start the thread now?

The pick is panned. You can keep your own reasoning for it not being in your mind


Dude, go look at the ROY thread on the GB, nobody is saying that.


That he shouldn’t have went near 2?

If I start a redraft thread I’d venture he’d average 6 or lower. Do you think so?
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#145 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:12 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Do you want me to start the thread now?

The pick is panned. You can keep your own reasoning for it not being in your mind


Dude, go look at the ROY thread on the GB, nobody is saying that.


That he shouldn’t have went near 2?

If I start a redraft thread I’d venture he’d average 6 or lower. Do you think so?


That means he's been playing bad? Using that as your evidence he's been a "disappointment" shows how weak your argument is. It's been a strong draft class and Bagley has been playing well, why you want to talk him down is beyond me.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#146 » by BoogieTime » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:26 pm

codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Dude, go look at the ROY thread on the GB, nobody is saying that.


That he shouldn’t have went near 2?

If I start a redraft thread I’d venture he’d average 6 or lower. Do you think so?


That means he's been playing bad? Using that as your evidence he's been a "disappointment" shows how weak your argument is. It's been a strong draft class and Bagley has been playing well, why you want to talk him down is beyond me.


I don’t want to. I’m annoyed by the fact that I’m my mind I don’t have anyone securely riding with Fox/Buddy after we just spent a 2 pick. When your annoyed, you have to communicate.

It’s not just Doncic, I’d feel more secure with Jackson or Carter for sure. I don’t have the security near where my man was picked now. If we had CArter or Jackson I wouldn’t complain about Doncic, I just want a player

He has good tools, besides wingspan, so hopefully this becomes less divisive
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#147 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:26 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Do you want me to start the thread now?

The pick is panned. You can keep your own reasoning for it not being in your mind


Dude, go look at the ROY thread on the GB, nobody is saying that.


That he shouldn’t have went near 2?

If I start a redraft thread I’d venture he’d average 6 or lower. Do you think so?


Here are some GB comments about Bagley from over the weeked since their validation is what you need:

"Doncic, WCJ, Ayton, Bagley, and to a lesser extent Shai and Bamba are looking really great. "

"P.S. Props to Bagley, Young, SGA, JJJ & WCJ who seem to be pretty solid too."

"bagley and young look like studs in the making as well so i don't see how they made a mistake imo but i guess we'll see later on in their career"

"marvin bagley has looked good and is a much better fit to fox than doncic. don't see any "mistake" there either."

"and I think there are some rookies such as Wendell Carter, JJJ and Bagley that deserve more minutes and could join them at the top if given more minutes&a bigger role."

Some real panning going on there :noway: :crazy:
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#148 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:42 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
codydaze wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
That he shouldn’t have went near 2?

If I start a redraft thread I’d venture he’d average 6 or lower. Do you think so?


That means he's been playing bad? Using that as your evidence he's been a "disappointment" shows how weak your argument is. It's been a strong draft class and Bagley has been playing well, why you want to talk him down is beyond me.


I don’t want to. I’m annoyed by the fact that I’m my mind I don’t have anyone securely riding with Fox/Buddy after we just spent a 2 pick. When your annoyed, you have to communicate.

It’s not just Doncic, I’d feel more secure with Jackson or Carter for sure. I don’t have the security near where my man was picked now. If we had CArter or Jackson I wouldn’t complain about Doncic, I just want a player

He has good tools, besides wingspan, so hopefully this becomes less divisive


I just don't know what you're seeing to make you feel like Bagley's not a player is all. Here are WCJ/JJJ/Bagley per 36 numbers side by side for comparison:

Bagley (PER36):
19.6 Pts 9.3 Reb 1.3 Ast 0.9 Stl 2.0 Blk
50.8 FG% 50% 3P% 56% TS%
16.5 PER 13% TRB% 4.7% BLK%

WCJ (PER36):
16.3 Pts 10.6 Reb 3.3 Ast 1.0 Stl 2.9 Blk
47.9% FG% 38.5% 3P% 55% TS%
19.4 PER 15.8% TRB% 6.7 BLK%

JJJ (PER36):
16.8 Pts 6.4 Reb 1.8 Ast 1.4 Stl 2.2 Blk
45.2% FG% 19.2% 3P% 52.8% TS%
15.6 PER 10.5% TRB% 6.1% BLK%
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#149 » by bleeds_purple » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:41 pm

codydaze wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Most ridiculous take I've seen on this board.


It's not super ridiculous when you compare it what Doncic is doing so far and the fact that the fans pretty near unanimously preferred him. It's gonna take many people a long time to get over us passing on him. Our relatively hot start is a current distraction from the reality that Doncic looks to be way better than Bagley.

Bagley is a year away from being a productive player. I'm not expecting anything from him this year. But the signs are there. He just needs to work hard on his game and learn the overall meta-game.


That has nothing to do with the way Bagley is playing though because as crazy of a concept as it may be for some people to grasp, it's possible that both guys can play well. All it shows is that the fans who wanted Doncic can't objectively watch Bagley play because he's already productive in the minutes he plays (19.6 pts/9.3 reb PER36 on 56% TS% and 16.5 PER).He goes through some defensive lapses at times but he already looks better defensively than he was projected to be. Top 4 in rookie scoring despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him, top 4 in rookie rebounding despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him here as well and 6th in PER among rookies who have played at least 200 minutes.


1. Its pretty silly to suggest Doncic's play has nothing to do with Bagley. That's the guy we passed on to take Bagley. He can and rightfully should be compared to Doncic when determining whether that was a wise selection. If Bagley goes on to average 20/10 for his career and makes 2 all-star games but Doncic goes on to win 3 finals MVPs, that will necessarily mean that Bagley was not the right selection. In reality, the only way to know if he was a good pick is to compare him to Doncic because the answer is relative to the other choices that were possible (i.e. the definitive inquiry is whether taking Doncic was the superior choice)

2. Its utterly pointless to talk about stats, particularly a meaningless stat like PER36, when we have a sample size of barely ten games. When it comes to virtually all rookies you are just looking for potential. Right now, Bagley shows some potential. His biggest problem is he is being played out of position (always next to a second big clogging the lane) and he's a bit skittish as with most rookies. Its now on the team to define a role for him and put him in a position to learn. I would really like to see us playing him at the five and putting him in pick and rolls with Fox and Bogdan.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#150 » by codydaze » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:13 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
It's not super ridiculous when you compare it what Doncic is doing so far and the fact that the fans pretty near unanimously preferred him. It's gonna take many people a long time to get over us passing on him. Our relatively hot start is a current distraction from the reality that Doncic looks to be way better than Bagley.

Bagley is a year away from being a productive player. I'm not expecting anything from him this year. But the signs are there. He just needs to work hard on his game and learn the overall meta-game.


That has nothing to do with the way Bagley is playing though because as crazy of a concept as it may be for some people to grasp, it's possible that both guys can play well. All it shows is that the fans who wanted Doncic can't objectively watch Bagley play because he's already productive in the minutes he plays (19.6 pts/9.3 reb PER36 on 56% TS% and 16.5 PER).He goes through some defensive lapses at times but he already looks better defensively than he was projected to be. Top 4 in rookie scoring despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him, top 4 in rookie rebounding despite playing 100 less minutes than the three rookies ahead of him here as well and 6th in PER among rookies who have played at least 200 minutes.


1. Its pretty silly to suggest Doncic's play has nothing to do with Bagley. That's the guy we passed on to take Bagley. He can and rightfully should be compared to Doncic when determining whether that was a wise selection. If Bagley goes on to average 20/10 for his career and makes 2 all-star games but Doncic goes on to win 3 finals MVPs, that will necessarily mean that Bagley was not the right selection. In reality, the only way to know if he was a good pick is to compare him to Doncic because the answer is relative to the other choices that were possible (i.e. the definitive inquiry is whether taking Doncic was the superior choice)

2. Its utterly pointless to talk about stats, particularly a meaningless stat like PER36, when we have a sample size of barely ten games. When it comes to virtually all rookies you are just looking for potential. Right now, Bagley shows some potential. His biggest problem is he is being played out of position (always next to a second big clogging the lane) and he's a bit skittish as with most rookies. Its now on the team to define a role for him and put him in a position to learn. I would really like to see us playing him at the five and putting him in pick and rolls with Fox and Bogdan.


I guess if you want to evalulate the pick based on hypothetical situations rather than statistics then I have nothing else to add.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#151 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:25 am

Per 36 Luka

PPG: 21.3
RPG: 6.8
APG: 4.7
BLK: 0.3
TOV: 4.4

TS% .604
PER: 16.5



Now PER 36 Bagley

PPG: 19.6
RPG: 9.3
APG: 1.3
BLK: 2.0
TOV: 3.4

TS% .560
PER: 16.5


Fireable offense indeed

EDIT:
Oh and both players have the same Win Shares/48 minutes .065

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#152 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:34 am

codydaze wrote:I guess if you want to evalulate the pick based on hypothetical situations rather than statistics then I have nothing else to add.


What you just wrote is a 100% cop out. First, right now there are no meaningful statistics on either player. The guy below you posts PER36 of counting numbers for a 10 game sample size as if that is suppose to tell you anything.

Second, in the long-run you can be sure the comparison will come up since that's the guy they passed on. It's absolutely not a hypothetical as you suggest. Its just a simple comparison of actual players.

To be clear I'm not taking a stance one way or another. Only a fool would draw a conclusion this early. The people saying he's a bust are just as stupid (and a lot more negative) than the people saying he's a hit. All I'm saying is, they will naturally get compared to each other. As will the rest of the draft class.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#153 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 pm

The per36 only shows up to this point the gap between Bagley and Luka in 13 games isnt large enough to fire Vlade like BoogieTime wants.

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#154 » by BoogieTime » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:39 pm

City of Trees wrote:The per36 only shows up to this point the gap between Bagley and Luka in 13 games isnt large enough to fire Vlade like BoogieTime wants.

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Well, I want Vlade fired regardless of this, at this point. If this continues til the end of the season, no way Vlade survives

In regardless to the Bagley pick, everything I write is in the context of how it looks as of now. Who has written or can write anything conclusive about it? But when one is looking like ROY and the other isn’t looking nearly as good, which is widely objectively agreed on, it will/should be topical to Kings fans
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#155 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:40 pm

Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#156 » by BoogieTime » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:43 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:I guess if you want to evalulate the pick based on hypothetical situations rather than statistics then I have nothing else to add.


What you just wrote is a 100% cop out. First, right now there are no meaningful statistics on either player. The guy below you posts PER36 of counting numbers for a 10 game sample size as if that is suppose to tell you anything.

Second, in the long-run you can be sure the comparison will come up since that's the guy they passed on. It's absolutely not a hypothetical as you suggest. Its just a simple comparison of actual players.

To be clear I'm not taking a stance one way or another. Only a fool would draw a conclusion this early. The people saying he's a bust are just as stupid (and a lot more negative) than the people saying he's a hit. All I'm saying is, they will naturally get compared to each other. As will the rest of the draft class.


Who have you seen say he is a bust at 19? Anywhere? Posters or NBA critics?

They can only give their observations through such/such games. Fans are going to give their opinions about how players are looking through such and such games for such an important decision. And usually careers follow trajectories, so initial returns mean different things to different people
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#157 » by BoogieTime » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:44 pm

City of Trees wrote:Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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I don’t think so. And if Luka looks like ROY, and Bagley looks IMO like a project to end the year, I really don’t
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#158 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:00 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
City of Trees wrote:Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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I don’t think so. And if Luka looks like ROY, and Bagley looks IMO like a project to end the year, I really don’t
Luka has a ton of experience already AND big men take longer to develop. It only makes sense Luka looks further along this season. Doesnt mean Luka will win the race. If you want to fire Vlade over the Bagley pick you'll probably need to wait two to three seasons to make the correct call.

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#159 » by codydaze » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:01 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:I guess if you want to evalulate the pick based on hypothetical situations rather than statistics then I have nothing else to add.


What you just wrote is a 100% cop out. First, right now there are no meaningful statistics on either player. The guy below you posts PER36 of counting numbers for a 10 game sample size as if that is suppose to tell you anything.

Second, in the long-run you can be sure the comparison will come up since that's the guy they passed on. It's absolutely not a hypothetical as you suggest. Its just a simple comparison of actual players.

To be clear I'm not taking a stance one way or another. Only a fool would draw a conclusion this early. The people saying he's a bust are just as stupid (and a lot more negative) than the people saying he's a hit. All I'm saying is, they will naturally get compared to each other. As will the rest of the draft class.


I'm not drawing any conclusions as to who's better either, all I ever said was that Bagley was playing well especially compared to the other rookies. It has been you and BoogieTime making this a Doncic vs Bagley thing as if it's impossible for both of them to play well.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#160 » by codydaze » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:06 pm

City of Trees wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
City of Trees wrote:Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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I don’t think so. And if Luka looks like ROY, and Bagley looks IMO like a project to end the year, I really don’t
Luka has a ton of experience already AND big men take longer to develop. It only makes sense Luka looks further along this season. Doesnt mean Luka will win the race. If you want to fire Vlade over the Bagley pick you'll probably need to wait two to three seasons to make the correct call.

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I can't even keep responding to this suff, man. Lol it's crazy. Luka has been given the full reigns of that team to go produce while Bagley is being brought along slowly just like Fox was last year but we need to fire Vlade? Crazy talk in here.

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