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This team is killing me

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#161 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:08 pm

codydaze wrote:
City of Trees wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:I don’t think so. And if Luka looks like ROY, and Bagley looks IMO like a project to end the year, I really don’t
Luka has a ton of experience already AND big men take longer to develop. It only makes sense Luka looks further along this season. Doesnt mean Luka will win the race. If you want to fire Vlade over the Bagley pick you'll probably need to wait two to three seasons to make the correct call.

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I can't even keep responding to this suff, man. Lol it's crazy. Luka has been given the full reigns of that team to go produce while Bagley is being brought along slowly just like Fox was last year but we need to fire Vlade? Crazy talk in here.
Yep.

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#162 » by BoogieTime » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:10 pm

codydaze wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
codydaze wrote:I guess if you want to evalulate the pick based on hypothetical situations rather than statistics then I have nothing else to add.


What you just wrote is a 100% cop out. First, right now there are no meaningful statistics on either player. The guy below you posts PER36 of counting numbers for a 10 game sample size as if that is suppose to tell you anything.

Second, in the long-run you can be sure the comparison will come up since that's the guy they passed on. It's absolutely not a hypothetical as you suggest. Its just a simple comparison of actual players.

To be clear I'm not taking a stance one way or another. Only a fool would draw a conclusion this early. The people saying he's a bust are just as stupid (and a lot more negative) than the people saying he's a hit. All I'm saying is, they will naturally get compared to each other. As will the rest of the draft class.


I'm not drawing any conclusions as to who's better either, all I ever said was that Bagley was playing well especially compared to the other rookies. It has been you and BoogieTime making this a Doncic vs Bagley thing as if it's impossible for both of them to play well.


It’s opinion, but IMO Luka has been showing surefire star stuff, with a disparity between Bagley. I think this is backed up by NBA pundits professionally and by users. You can look on random social media. I can create a thread on the GB and have it being 90%+ (?) Luka. The disparity is tough to ignore IMO at this stage. If it closes progressively, hopefully, then the tone will change
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#163 » by Popovich » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:47 pm

City of Trees wrote:Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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(My apology for this long post, if you are short with time, read text in bold which summarize my thoughts here pretty accurately)

Hey I admit I was the one of many who criticized Vlade a lot. Few times I wrote even some ugly and offending words towards him but then I changed my mind and would usually delete such a post. I only praised Vlade as a businessman, I think he is a good Businessman. He was behind D.Cousins trade and I knew from that moment that Vlade got his hands and his signature free to do as he wish in Sacramento. As a good business man Vlade mindset is that of a merchant with motto "get goods cheap and sell it with a much bigger price". With that being said you understand what represents goods here. That is SAC youth players core. Without overreacting Doncic could be the biggest talent/prospect since Lebron and I was the one who never had any doubts in Dončić. In fact I am surprise to see how his translation to NBA from FIBA went so quickly. He is possibly already the best player in Dallas and "he did not even unpack his luggage completely yet". He is a type of player without many holes in his game and a type of a player around which you could build a team. However Sacramento already has that kind of a player and it is Fox, whose future shines bright. Another note, SAC has his own Dončić, it is quite similar player with couple of key differences, BogBog*. Luka is younger and stronger, both can handle PG position well and I rate them equal there. Bogdan is little bit quicker yet physically weaker. Bogdan is better shooter overall and underrated defender while Luka is better in pretty much everything else. IMO Bogdan plays with more passion and love and he is better clutch than Docic but at the end Luka is of-course better player overall. I was saying all of this because here we could search for the reason behind SAC decision to skip on Doncic. Divac chose Bagley and I see nothing wrong with that, do you? I just expect to see this kid more. Bjelica isn't really young and should be rested occasionally. Belly would do anything for the team and if it is in team best interest to sit, he will sit without complaining much. With Boogie gone you now have Willie Cauley-Stein. Imagine what would happen with WCS career if Boogie stayed, credits to Divac again here. On the other hand, wait as you are still to hate Vlade, once GM starts to trade, sell this prospects , players with prices which team such as SAC could not refuse. This is inevitable at one point in the future seasons and it will be sad to see players who developed in front of your eyes go so simply. Then you will hate Vlade and the whole management more.

To repeat myself one more time, I was against Divac and now I don't want to flatter him without admitting this. As a good businessman Divac now created team full of estates, pure capital, these players will worth much, much more in years to come and SAC could afford to even bring some superstar in years or two, but the question is do they need to do so?
Fox is already quick/fast as Westbrook he is not quite as strong as "wild west" but IMO he is already better shooter and better team player than Russel. It is crazy but Fox could be among top 3 PG's in the conference very, very soon. Fans need to show patience and I am sure Bagley will also show his full potential and will meet these higher then usual expectations which are attached on him. As I said skipping on Doncic was probably mistake but should we blame Vlade for this? You see Bogdan is back and he could provide similar stuff as Doncic would at that position. And after all being said , at the end Sacramento is playing beautiful and up-tempo basketball, really modern one, and now when they have complete roster available, Bogdan could relieve job for Fox who thus far carried this remarkable team. Bogdan's return will open up 3 point line so that Bjelica wan't have to shoot from the parking lot distance so often. Bogdanovic can handle, can pass can set up others and what is most important can shoot and finish games. Fox can do all of that too and these two could really help each other. With Bogdan back in rotation Fox should have more opet 3pt attempts as well. These two ought to complement each other and they have good chemistry between them which was passed from previous season. Not to forget Buddy , he should just continue to perform as he performs now with exception of giving the ball to others little bit more often now. Now when you have Bogdan, Bjelica and Kufus should return to his natural role, one that is simillar to what Kufus is doing so well right now. At the present, I can't see anyone blaming Vlade for anything , he already received tons of critics after he let Boogie go (who by the way thinks he is a player that needs to earn a ring at all costs and really wanted to leave SAC badly). Remember that all this started after Cousins left, players say that atmosphere in the locker room is better than before and SAC on the floor plays fast, unselfish, nice and they are playing hard, fans are loving this team If I am such a Kings fan like I used to be back in 2002-03 at this point I could not ask for more, really!! I love how Kings are playing, they should secure playoffs if they continue to shine. I don't have much to say against this team, maybe just we need to see more rotations, more bench players, IDK, season is long and vets should be rested more often maybe. So far so good, it is on the staff now to think how to keep this team healthy and rolling as they roll right now. :pray: .
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#164 » by City of Trees » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 pm

Good post Popovich... I agree

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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#165 » by BoogieTime » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:58 am

Popovich wrote:
City of Trees wrote:Not so hot, Hot take: Vlade is keeping his job.

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(My apology for this long post, if you are short with time, read text in bold which summarize my thoughts here pretty accurately)

Hey I admit I was the one of many who criticized Vlade a lot. Few times I wrote even some ugly and offending words towards him but then I changed my mind and would usually delete such a post. I only praised Vlade as a businessman, I think he is a good Businessman. He was behind D.Cousins trade and I knew from that moment that Vlade got his hands and his signature free to do as he wish in Sacramento. As a good business man Vlade mindset is that of a merchant with motto "get goods cheap and sell it with a much bigger price". With that being said you understand what represents goods here. That is SAC youth players core. Without overreacting Doncic could be the biggest talent/prospect since Lebron and I was the one who never had any doubts in Dončić. In fact I am surprise to see how his translation to NBA from FIBA went so quickly. He is possibly already the best player in Dallas and "he did not even unpack his luggage completely yet". He is a type of player without many holes in his game and a type of a player around which you could build a team. However Sacramento already has that kind of a player and it is Fox, whose future shines bright. Another note, SAC has his own Dončić, it is quite similar player with couple of key differences, BogBog*. Luka is younger and stronger, both can handle PG position well and I rate them equal there. Bogdan is little bit quicker yet physically weaker. Bogdan is better shooter overall and underrated defender while Luka is better in pretty much everything else. IMO Bogdan plays with more passion and love and he is better clutch than Docic but at the end Luka is of-course better player overall. I was saying all of this because here we could search for the reason behind SAC decision to skip on Doncic. Divac chose Bagley and I see nothing wrong with that, do you? I just expect to see this kid more. Bjelica isn't really young and should be rested occasionally. Belly would do anything for the team and if it is in team best interest to sit, he will sit without complaining much. With Boogie gone you now have Willie Cauley-Stein. Imagine what would happen with WCS career if Boogie stayed, credits to Divac again here. On the other hand, wait as you are still to hate Vlade, once GM starts to trade, sell this prospects , players with prices which team such as SAC could not refuse. This is inevitable at one point in the future seasons and it will be sad to see players who developed in front of your eyes go so simply. Then you will hate Vlade and the whole management more.

To repeat myself one more time, I was against Divac and now I don't want to flatter him without admitting this. As a good businessman Divac now created team full of estates, pure capital, these players will worth much, much more in years to come and SAC could afford to even bring some superstar in years or two, but the question is do they need to do so?
Fox is already quick/fast as Westbrook he is not quite as strong as "wild west" but IMO he is already better shooter and better team player than Russel. It is crazy but Fox could be among top 3 PG's in the conference very, very soon. Fans need to show patience and I am sure Bagley will also show his full potential and will meet these higher then usual expectations which are attached on him. As I said skipping on Doncic was probably mistake but should we blame Vlade for this? You see Bogdan is back and he could provide similar stuff as Doncic would at that position. And after all being said , at the end Sacramento is playing beautiful and up-tempo basketball, really modern one, and now when they have complete roster available, Bogdan could relieve job for Fox who thus far carried this remarkable team. Bogdan's return will open up 3 point line so that Bjelica wan't have to shoot from the parking lot distance so often. Bogdanovic can handle, can pass can set up others and what is most important can shoot and finish games. Fox can do all of that too and these two could really help each other. With Bogdan back in rotation Fox should have more opet 3pt attempts as well. These two ought to complement each other and they have good chemistry between them which was passed from previous season. Not to forget Buddy , he should just continue to perform as he performs now with exception of giving the ball to others little bit more often now. Now when you have Bogdan, Bjelica and Kufus should return to his natural role, one that is simillar to what Kufus is doing so well right now. At the present, I can't see anyone blaming Vlade for anything , he already received tons of critics after he let Boogie go (who by the way thinks he is a player that needs to earn a ring at all costs and really wanted to leave SAC badly). Remember that all this started after Cousins left, players say that atmosphere in the locker room is better than before and SAC on the floor plays fast, unselfish, nice and they are playing hard, fans are loving this team If I am such a Kings fan like I used to be back in 2002-03 at this point I could not ask for more, really!! I love how Kings are playing, they should secure playoffs if they continue to shine. I don't have much to say against this team, maybe just we need to see more rotations, more bench players, IDK, season is long and vets should be rested more often maybe. So far so good, it is on the staff now to think how to keep this team healthy and rolling as they roll right now. :pray: .


Doncic can be the best prospect since LeBron to you, and you have nothing he can be criticized for (without getting into my list)?
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#166 » by Popovich » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:52 am

Well can be criticized for not bringing Doncic , you are correct but was that decision all on Vlade, many teams wanted Doncic I know that . I am not well informed on that topic about Doncic coming to Kings, who knows why that did not happened? I just know that Kings wanted Bagley and than because of that wish they have passed on Doncic. At the moment this decision looks like a big mistake but let's wait a little bit and see how Bagley develops before jumping into early conclusions. Doncic is already developed player at age 19 but most of the scouts were afraid of his translations to the NBA. They were wrong but who would have thought that he will adapt so quickly.

I am just saying that fans should be happy with the current team and results, considering last season and experts projection before this season, right?
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#167 » by simonbampfield » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:17 am

Popovich wrote:Well can be criticized for not bringing Doncic , you are correct but was that decision all on Vlade, many teams wanted Doncic I know that . I am not well informed on that topic about Doncic coming to Kings, who knows why that did not happened? I just know that Kings wanted Bagley and than because of that wish they have passed on Doncic. At the moment this decision looks like a big mistake but let's wait a little bit and see how Bagley develops before jumping into early conclusions. Doncic is already developed player at age 19 but most of the scouts were afraid of his translations to the NBA. They were wrong but who would have thought that he will adapt so quickly.

I am just saying that fans should be happy with the current team and results, considering last season and experts projection before this season, right?

I was all aboard team Doncic pre draft and wanted us to draft him. However the FO went with Bagley and I’m right behind them on it. And I’m not saying your against that at all, you are right on line with your thinking.

I would be willing to be a lot of coin on Doncic telling the Kings not to draft him. To me right from the outset it didn’t smell right and Vlade absolutely knew what he would have had in Doncic and that was the best or second best prospect in the draft depending on how you viewed Ayton. He was ready made and anyone with half a clue about basketball knew his game would translate.

Having said that I’m happy with how things have played out so far with the Bagley pick. I think he is going to be a stud and Kings fans are going to be super happy with him. Doncic will have a fantastic career too.



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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#168 » by BoogieTime » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:58 pm

simonbampfield wrote:
Popovich wrote:Well can be criticized for not bringing Doncic , you are correct but was that decision all on Vlade, many teams wanted Doncic I know that . I am not well informed on that topic about Doncic coming to Kings, who knows why that did not happened? I just know that Kings wanted Bagley and than because of that wish they have passed on Doncic. At the moment this decision looks like a big mistake but let's wait a little bit and see how Bagley develops before jumping into early conclusions. Doncic is already developed player at age 19 but most of the scouts were afraid of his translations to the NBA. They were wrong but who would have thought that he will adapt so quickly.

I am just saying that fans should be happy with the current team and results, considering last season and experts projection before this season, right?

I was all aboard team Doncic pre draft and wanted us to draft him. However the FO went with Bagley and I’m right behind them on it. And I’m not saying your against that at all, you are right on line with your thinking.

I would be willing to be a lot of coin on Doncic telling the Kings not to draft him. To me right from the outset it didn’t smell right and Vlade absolutely knew what he would have had in Doncic and that was the best or second best prospect in the draft depending on how you viewed Ayton. He was ready made and anyone with half a clue about basketball knew his game would translate.

Having said that I’m happy with how things have played out so far with the Bagley pick. I think he is going to be a stud and Kings fans are going to be super happy with him. Doncic will have a fantastic career too.



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I don’t think I would. Luka had nothing but positive things to say in media about playing by with Bogdan, and his agent said he didn’t express any desires of where he wanted to be. Vlade/Vivek met him and took pictures with him after they had dinner. On social media Luka used Vivek’s hand gesture as if code to express he thought Kings would pick him

I think they picked Bagley due to perceived fit
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#169 » by wco81 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:55 pm

So the rumored rift between the FO and Joerger for not playing the youngsters, how valid is it?

Should he be giving more minutes to Giles, Skal, etc. or play vets like Bogdan, Ferrell and Bjelica to try to win as many games as possible?

Big improvement in Fox's shooting this year but is there signs that the coaching staff is developing young players well?

Hield's efficiency is about the same but he's taking more shot attempts so that's a good sign. Does the eye test show other improvements to his game, like more catch and shoots or improved ability to create for himself, pull up shot percentage, maybe even post ups?

WCS has steadily improved his numbers throughout his career. What kind of extension does he get this summer?

But other young players like Jackson, Mason and Skal are not showing improvements. So the overall record with young players under Jorger is mixed. There have been improvements from the high lotto picks but not from the lower picks, which may be expected whether or not there are good developmental coaches.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#170 » by blind prophet » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:59 pm

wco81 wrote:So the rumored rift between the FO and Joerger for not playing the youngsters, how valid is it?

Should he be giving more minutes to Giles, Skal, etc. or play vets like Bogdan, Ferrell and Bjelica to try to win as many games as possible?

Big improvement in Fox's shooting this year but is there signs that the coaching staff is developing young players well?

Hield's efficiency is about the same but he's taking more shot attempts so that's a good sign. Does the eye test show other improvements to his game, like more catch and shoots or improved ability to create for himself, pull up shot percentage, maybe even post ups?

WCS has steadily improved his numbers throughout his career. What kind of extension does he get this summer?

But other young players like Jackson, Mason and Skal are not showing improvements. So the overall record with young players under Jorger is mixed. There have been improvements from the high lotto picks but not from the lower picks, which may be expected whether or not there are good developmental coaches.


If you ask me the most likely scenario is Bagley's camp or a minority owner.

Unfortunately our history speaks for itself so anything is possible.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#171 » by bleeds_purple » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:26 pm

Virtually everyone on this board wanted Doncic. Those people are being proven correct.

Anyone changing their opinion now is engaging in homerism.

All that being said, even if Doncic ends up having the better career, Bagley can definitely have a good one himself. I sure will be rooting for that even if I wanted Doncic over anyone else.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#172 » by itsme23 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:48 pm

Everyone and their mother knew Doncic was a player you don’t pass up.

I understand some decisions are difficult and you can’t always blame management, however a player like Doncic with everything you knew he achieved up to this point, you draft him. He don’t go fancy. You draft that sure thing prospect.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#173 » by BoogieTime » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:32 pm

AS RPM comes out, Bagley second to last and the butt of jokes.. that’s the impact I thought I’ve seen

Hate to bash on a kid that’s a King, and I hope he will be good, and admittedly I liked him as a prospect pre-draft. But the main issue is removing who would make the pick, if it stands like this, in the first place

New FO. Fox, isn’t saving him. That’s a consensus pick vrs the nonsense of three/four years and we need a professional GM. I’m a huge fan of buddy and Bogdan but Cousins had value. Still the Vlade fans will ride the Fox/Bogdan thing til it can’t be ridden no more, wanting more unprofessional Vlade
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#174 » by BoogieTime » Sun Dec 9, 2018 2:46 am

Seeing these Doncic clips makes a brother want to cry

Not seeing how Vlade escapes that whatsoever
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#175 » by enderwilson » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:19 am

bleeds_purple wrote:Virtually everyone on this board wanted Doncic. Those people are being proven correct.

Anyone changing their opinion now is engaging in homerism.

All that being said, even if Doncic ends up having the better career, Bagley can definitely have a good one himself. I sure will be rooting for that even if I wanted Doncic over anyone else.


Define, "homerism".
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#176 » by enderwilson » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:21 am

BoogieTime wrote:Seeing these Doncic clips makes a brother want to cry

Not seeing how Vlade escapes that whatsoever


Winning record?
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#177 » by BoogieTime » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:30 am

enderwilson wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:Seeing these Doncic clips makes a brother want to cry

Not seeing how Vlade escapes that whatsoever


Winning record?

So because we have a winning record and are getting better we shouldn’t want a better GM if need be?

Fox was a consensus pick. Buddy came as the result of a trade of a major piece. Bogdan is the only thing that has shown true acumen IMO so far after a list of faults

Just because the team is winning doesn’t buy Vlade time. We have a good coach and a consensus pick franchise PG. Just the acumen shown dictates job security
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#178 » by codydaze » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:01 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
enderwilson wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:Seeing these Doncic clips makes a brother want to cry

Not seeing how Vlade escapes that whatsoever


Winning record?

So because we have a winning record and are getting better we shouldn’t want a better GM if need be?

Fox was a consensus pick. Buddy came as the result of a trade of a major piece. Bogdan is the only thing that has shown true acumen IMO so far after a list of faults

Just because the team is winning doesn’t buy Vlade time. We have a good coach and a consensus pick franchise PG. Just the acumen shown dictates job security


Vlade hired the coach though? Also, you're using hindsight saying Fox was consensus at 5 because he definitely was not. As far as who Kings fans wanted he may have been but realistically DSJ, Isaac and Markkanen all had consideration there.

This is the roster Vlade had when he took over:

Collison/Mclemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins
McCallum/Stauskas/Casspi/Landry/Hollins
Sessions/Miller/DWill/Reggie Evans

I can't think of any other team that had that drastic of a turnaround in talent in the short amount of time it did. I'm not saying he's the best GM in the league at all, he's had some bad moves but what GM hasn't? He's grown from the mistakes he's made and the reality of the situation is he took a team that had a superstar big man but was unable to win 30 games and in 3 years transformed it into a team with no superstar or max contract player that's playing above .500 ball through 1/3 of the season. He deserves to at least see it through Fox signing an extension.
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#179 » by Johnny Firpo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Hey guys, so I'm a huge fan of Bogdanovic, and my question is, don't you guys think that he would deserve more minutes and higher usage%? I don't necessarily mind using him in the Manu role, but to me, it's clear that the team is the best when he is out there. Am I wrong? I also think he has an All-Star ceiling, and there is no way he should be playing sub-30 minutes. I know he was injured and his playing time increased recently, but still, I want more for him. :D
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Re: This team is killing me 

Post#180 » by pillwenney » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:22 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:Hey guys, so I'm a huge fan of Bogdanovic, and my question is, don't you guys think that he would deserve more minutes and higher usage%? I don't necessarily mind using him in the Manu role, but to me, it's clear that the team is the best when he is out there. Am I wrong? I also think he has an All-Star ceiling, and there is no way he should be playing sub-30 minutes. I know he was injured and his playing time increased recently, but still, I want more for him. :D


Yeah, it's kind of a tough spot, because when it comes to crunch time, it's often a choice between him, Buddy, and Shump at the 2/3 positions, and we often need Shump out there to guard the other team's best perimeter player.

While IMO Bogdan is still a better over all player than Buddy, I don't think he's necessarily better next to Fox. They're both passable defenders and deadeye shooters. But Buddy and Fox have great chemistry and Buddy works a little better off the ball, whereas Bogdan is the far superior playmaker.

I do think Joerger could stagger things a little better to where we just almost always have two of Buddy/Bogdan/Fox on the floor, but I also think that will be easier when we get on more solid ground at SF (and therefore, have less motivation to play one of them at SF). The problem then would be that we'd never get to see all 3 of them in the same lineup, but if we get a really good option at SF, that might not be the worst thing.

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