Rotation if the season started today

[Sactowndog]

So, the #1 thing you would like to see from Fox this year is to get more open attempts from the 3 point line. I can't argue with that. It is one thing to have a good shooting 3 point team, another if there is a low number of attempts.

No Fox is a horrible 3 point shooter but he can collapse a defense due to his quickness. I want to see Fox get a foot in the paint and kick the ball out to Bogdan, Beli and Buddy. All three are top 50 3 point shooters percentage wise for players with over 150 attempts. Beli replaces Temple who was also in that group.

I have already posted how Bogdan’s percents went way up when Fox was on the floor. Same story with Buddy.
Percent when Fox is on the floor
Right corner 3: 63.6%
Left corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 48.3

Buddy attempts when Fox on the court: minus 1 full attempt. If Fox was even a marginally intelligent point guard Buddy’s attempts should be at least 1 if not 2 attempts better than when Fox is off the court. But Fox is such a poor point guard Buddy’s percentage is much better and his attempts are down 1 full attempt!!!!

Welcome to the club. There are plenty of vocal members here that were saying this same thing during the games, the difference is watching it go down and looking at every play unfold told the real story. I guess it comes down to whether he simply didn't kick it out, or if that wasn't the shot they were attempting to get from their offense. I point to the latter.

Could be. None of us know for sure. I saw Bogdan waiving his arms looking for a pass on many occasions.

[Sactowndog]

I assumed all the posters here were all on board with what all the numbers meant last year. This article is something you should read if you haven't already. It explains all that needs to be explained. I'm talking in attempts as well and we've talked about this ad nauseam. Them being 27th in the league in attempts nullifies any and all positives gained from them being a great 3 point shooting team percentage wise. It's points directly back to usage when you get to the end of this line. Wall also wasn't seeing this much horn play with two bigs and a window the width of his shoulders to get through on most drives.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense

The article doesn’t dispute my point. The Kings had above average 3 point shooters. Yes Willie and ZBo did a poor job of finding perimeter shooters. It’s one reason why I think Giles and Beli get way more minutes. However, Fox was equally bad. He rarely got into the lane and passed to open 3 point shooters.

Bogdan shot while Fox was on the floor.
Left corner 3: 75%
Right corner 3: 50%
Above the break: 40.3%

But only has .5 more attempts when Fox was on the floor. I’m tired of excuses for Fox’s crap point guard play. He was 100th in offensive rating for rookies. He needs to get the ball to open shooters and stop forcing shots against a sagging defense.

Your point is that Fox doesn't or won't kick out to open 3 point shooters and the fact that they ran as much double post, horn, and paint clogging play does dispute that to some degree because obviously that's not what they were looking for out of their offense. Unless you think that Fox was the cause of the Kings mid range and slow paced insistence? To quote the article, "Sacramento simply played slowly, no matter who was in or out of the game." They were no differences with Zbo in or out. That points directly to style of play and a quick hitting pick and roll game would obviously suit someone like Fox's game far more than having him run off screens in the mid range or space for others.

Here is the biggest indicator of what was being done:

"Sacramento moved the ball through the elbow more than anyone else, hitting that spot 20.4 times per game, blowing second place Memphis out of the water (17.3), and almost doubling the league median, 13.3."

In a driving guard/drive and dish initiated offense that area of the floor should be clear. Every team runs Princeton or Triangle sets to a degree but as it says, that ball was going to Willie most of the time and the results varied. Fox may very well have been poor even under the best of circumstances but citing what he did last year, or was allowed to do, needs to be put into some context and that context dictates that they certainly didn't put him in an offense that made sense for him as a driver or the 3 point shooters on this team if that's how you were grading them.

I think your point is valid. Both points can be correct. The offense could have hindered Fox’s ability to drive and dish and he could have done a poor job when he has the opportunity. It’s possible Fox didn’t get more opportunities because he did such a poor job with the opportunities he had.

[dckingsfan]

But either way - Fox doesn't progress and the rest won't matter much.

[SacKingZZZ]

But either way - Fox doesn't progress and the rest won't matter much.

But Fox progressing has a lot to do with how the play him. If last year made sense at all, it was all about putting players in a position uncomfortable for them and I think Joeger implied as much. Now it needs to be about putting them in a position to succeed.

[Sactowndog]

But either way - Fox doesn't progress and the rest won't matter much.

But Fox progressing has a lot to do with how the play him. If last year made sense at all, it was all about putting players in a position uncomfortable for them and I think Joeger implied as much. Now it needs to be about putting them in a position to succeed.

That’s why I think Beli and Giles are an important piece. Beli can stretch the floor on offense opening up the lane, while Giles can handle the ball well on the high ball screen. What is going to be interesting is can Bagley/Willie guard the three spot and let Beli take the slower fours.

[SacKingZZZ]

But either way - Fox doesn't progress and the rest won't matter much.

But Fox progressing has a lot to do with how the play him. If last year made sense at all, it was all about putting players in a position uncomfortable for them and I think Joeger implied as much. Now it needs to be about putting them in a position to succeed.

That’s why I think Beli and Giles are an important piece. Beli can stretch the floor on offense opening up the lane, while Giles can handle the ball well on the high ball screen. What is going to be interesting is can Bagley/Willie guard the three spot and let Beli take the slower fours.

I think the team makes more sense on paper this year for sure but some concerns exist like you bring up because for all the young bigs alone to be rotation players they'll have to slide over into different positions. The only real issue I have is the impending potential of creating a mess worse than last year if players like Ben Mac, Kosta, Zbo, and the potential of a 3 PG rotation are given consistent minutes. Signing Yogi and Bjelica to me should spell doom for the immediate minutes futures of Frank and JJ. Trying to make it work for all just makes it a guarantee the Kings have a bunch of players unable to break past average. The Kings have no pick next year so they need to start building asset value with what they have.

[Sactowndog]

But Fox progressing has a lot to do with how the play him. If last year made sense at all, it was all about putting players in a position uncomfortable for them and I think Joeger implied as much. Now it needs to be about putting them in a position to succeed.

That’s why I think Beli and Giles are an important piece. Beli can stretch the floor on offense opening up the lane, while Giles can handle the ball well on the high ball screen. What is going to be interesting is can Bagley/Willie guard the three spot and let Beli take the slower fours.

I think the team makes more sense on paper this year for sure but some concerns exist like you bring up because for all the young bigs alone to be rotation players they'll have to slide over into different positions. The only real issue I have is the impending potential of creating a mess worse than last year if players like Ben Mac, Kosta, Zbo, and the potential of a 3 PG rotation are given consistent minutes. Signing Yogi and Bjelica to me should spell doom for the immediate minutes futures of Frank and JJ. Trying to make it work for all just makes it a guarantee the Kings have a bunch of players unable to break past average. The Kings have no pick next year so they need to start building asset value with what they have.

Frank most likely but I’m curious what Jackson might do surrounded by other smart players.

[kingjawn100]

A lot of Fox's flaws last season were the fault of Joerger. Turning your best player who happens to be the fastest player in the league into solely a halfcourt player in my opinion is a fireable offense. I have no doubt he'd be a 17/18 ppg scorer playing in a different system.

[kingjawn100]

Thinking more about the rotation...i think id like to see the following starting 5

FOX/BUDDY/SHUMPERT/GILES/WCS

Obviously they'd struggle to score but you'd have at least an average defender at every single position and starting Buddy would compensate for Shumpert's lack of scoring at the 3 spot. Harry/Shump/Fox could really help set a defensive identity for this team.

An interesting lineup for the most possible offense/shooting would be FOX/BUDDY/BOGI/BJELICA/KOUFOS. Koufos being in there because Bjelica isn't known as much of a rebounder/interior defender. That's 3 legit outside threats. That would open things up quite a bit for De'aaron.

[sacking123]

Thinking more about the rotation...i think id like to see the following starting 5

FOX/BUDDY/SHUMPERT/GILES/WCS

Obviously they'd struggle to score but you'd have at least an average defender at every single position and starting Buddy would compensate for Shumpert's lack of scoring at the 3 spot. Harry/Shump/Fox could really help set a defensive identity for this team.

An interesting lineup for the most possible offense/shooting would be FOX/BUDDY/BOGI/BJELICA/KOUFOS. Koufos being in there because Bjelica isn't known as much of a rebounder/interior defender. That's 3 legit outside threats. That would open things up quite a bit for De'aaron.

On that last line up I would rather Giles in at the 5. Think about the creativity from that 5 - Fox/Buddy/Bogdan/Beli/Giles


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[dckingsfan]

Thinking more about the rotation...i think id like to see the following starting 5

FOX/BUDDY/SHUMPERT/GILES/WCS

Obviously they'd struggle to score but you'd have at least an average defender at every single position and starting Buddy would compensate for Shumpert's lack of scoring at the 3 spot. Harry/Shump/Fox could really help set a defensive identity for this team.

An interesting lineup for the most possible offense/shooting would be FOX/BUDDY/BOGI/BJELICA/KOUFOS. Koufos being in there because Bjelica isn't known as much of a rebounder/interior defender. That's 3 legit outside threats. That would open things up quite a bit for De'aaron.

I like your second lineup and replace Koufos with WCS or Giles. I would like to see Shumpert and Koufos play limited minutes and see the youngsters grow. Do you thing either Koufos or Shumpert will be back next year? And it is as much about the offense they run as about the line-up, right?

[dckingsfan]

A lot of Fox's flaws last season were the fault of Joerger. Turning your best player who happens to be the fastest player in the league into solely a halfcourt player in my opinion is a fireable offense. I have no doubt he'd be a 17/18 ppg scorer playing in a different system.

I still think he would have been a terribly inefficient player last year - the game was just moving to fast for him. He may have been able to score more - but he would have still crippled the team.

[SacKingZZZ]

A lot of Fox's flaws last season were the fault of Joerger. Turning your best player who happens to be the fastest player in the league into solely a halfcourt player in my opinion is a fireable offense. I have no doubt he'd be a 17/18 ppg scorer playing in a different system.

And we should give credit to Joerger if it was all a plan to develop his weaknesses, hopefully it was. If not, oh boy.

[SacKingZZZ]

I want to see Shump be a force on the bench. Kind of like Donte Greene was if you get my drift.

[SacKingZZZ]

A lot of Fox's flaws last season were the fault of Joerger. Turning your best player who happens to be the fastest player in the league into solely a halfcourt player in my opinion is a fireable offense. I have no doubt he'd be a 17/18 ppg scorer playing in a different system.

I still think he would have been a terribly inefficient player last year - the game was just moving to fast for him. He may have been able to score more - but he would have still crippled the team.

He's a rookie who can't shoot from 3 so of course he would have been inefficient. With young players it's about those little cracks of light showing through from time to time and he deserved to have a lot more of those. From day 1 the Kings gave him no shot to win ROY (not that he would have won of course) and I can't see how that sits well with a player who from day 1 was one of your brightest talents. If Hill had come in and tore the house down with Zbo and Temple at his side then maybe it would have taught him a lesson but that's far from how it worked out

[dckingsfan]

A lot of Fox's flaws last season were the fault of Joerger. Turning your best player who happens to be the fastest player in the league into solely a halfcourt player in my opinion is a fireable offense. I have no doubt he'd be a 17/18 ppg scorer playing in a different system.

I still think he would have been a terribly inefficient player last year - the game was just moving to fast for him. He may have been able to score more - but he would have still crippled the team.

He's a rookie who can't shoot from 3 so of course he would have been inefficient. With young players it's about those little cracks of light showing through from time to time and he deserved to have a lot more of those. From day 1 the Kings gave him no shot to win ROY (not that he would have won of course) and I can't see how that sits well with a player who from day 1 was one of your brightest talents. If Hill had come in and tore the house down with Zbo and Temple at his side then maybe it would have taught him a lesson but that's far from how it worked out

Or finish at the rim or shoot FTs

But yes, bringing in the "vets" was an unmitigated disaster - right there with you on that one.

[SacKingZZZ]

I still think he would have been a terribly inefficient player last year - the game was just moving to fast for him. He may have been able to score more - but he would have still crippled the team.

He's a rookie who can't shoot from 3 so of course he would have been inefficient. With young players it's about those little cracks of light showing through from time to time and he deserved to have a lot more of those. From day 1 the Kings gave him no shot to win ROY (not that he would have won of course) and I can't see how that sits well with a player who from day 1 was one of your brightest talents. If Hill had come in and tore the house down with Zbo and Temple at his side then maybe it would have taught him a lesson but that's far from how it worked out

Or finish at the rim or shoot FTs

But yes, bringing in the "vets" was an unmitigated disaster - right there with you on that one.

I just hope he can handle the weight he's putting on. He looked good in that first SL game and appeared to be ready to absorb contact but then he was right out with injury again. Unless that was just an excuse because they planned on playing him 1 game.

[kingjawn100]

i saw Fox's inability/unwillingness to go to the rim as an equally glaring weakness as his shooting was. How many times dud we see him sprint 100mph upcourt then stop and reset even though he had 1 man to beat? It almost seemed like he had been the fastest/highest jumping player on the court until then.

Definitely added strength will help (if i had to guess he was probably playing around 165lbs by midseason which is waaaay too frail to absorb contact). But id love to see him add a lot more craftiness around the rim in addition to being more fearless. There were a ton of times where i would have been happy seeing him drive and miss at the rim just to show he had a little of that no fear attitude.

It's almost like he has all the physically tools to be great but has never really learned how to play...which is both encouraging and frightening.

[kingjawn100]

He's a rookie who can't shoot from 3 so of course he would have been inefficient. With young players it's about those little cracks of light showing through from time to time and he deserved to have a lot more of those. From day 1 the Kings gave him no shot to win ROY (not that he would have won of course) and I can't see how that sits well with a player who from day 1 was one of your brightest talents. If Hill had come in and tore the house down with Zbo and Temple at his side then maybe it would have taught him a lesson but that's far from how it worked out

Or finish at the rim or shoot FTs

But yes, bringing in the "vets" was an unmitigated disaster - right there with you on that one.

I just hope he can handle the weight he's putting on. He looked good in that first SL game and appeared to be ready to absorb contact but then he was right out with injury again. Unless that was just an excuse because they planned on playing him 1 game.

that seemed to be it. Paraphrasing but Fox said before Summer league that he didn't want to play in Vegas. From a PR perspective the last image people have of Fox until October is him dominating a summer league game against the Lakers so it worked well to get him out on a high note (imagine if Bagley got 'injured' after that first game and missed the rest of summer league...fans would have totally different expectations for him entering the season).

Plus could you imagine if they let Fox play through a minor/stiff achilles strain and then he ruptured it the next day (in a meaningless summer league game?!). Heads would have rolled.

Now one place i differ with a lot of people is i didn't see a huge difference in Fox's body. He seemed to have added a little muscle but not enough to make a significant difference. I'm sure he will but its a process. One thing ill say..our players seem to really buy into the need to gain strength in the offseason. Willie and Skal are far stronger than they were when they first came to Sac. Buddy too. And Koufos seemed to have completely transformed his body since he's been in Sac.

[spidythejoe]

My bet for starting rotation:

Fox/Bogi/NB/Bagley/WCS
Yogi/Bogi/Jackson/Giles/Koufus
Zbo gets 12 minutes a night to through his fat butt around
Outside looking in: Skal, Mason, Shump
Cut/irrelivent: Davis, McLemore

Starters justification:
Fox is the future, can't not play him, Joeger has alluded to this. Bogi provides too much overall skill to sit and with rim runners like WCS and Bagley, his P&R skills will be paramount. Bjelica is skilled in a way the Kings needs, can push the ball, play heady basketball, and gives a steady veteran presence. I think the combo will be too much for him to sit and wait for a stretch 4 situation when a path for more minutes to right in front of him. Bagley needs minutes and I think they will want his (theoretical) scoring punch. WCS is the best center on the roster and can switch with the other bigs which I think is something they are going to look to do a lot this year.

Bench justification:
Yogi is better than Frank by a lot. The truth will out. Buddy thrived off the bench last season but if I had to bet, he'll be the starter by the end of the season. Jackson would be better used off the bench to let him go against non-starters to build his confidence and skill set. Giles is the wild card. Could easily be a starter but I think they are going to continue to be cautious with him until they really know his body is right. Koufus needs a new home, but in the mean time, is a heady, effective back up center. I think the Giles/Koufus pairing will be a spacing disaster, but they are the two most deserving of minutes and Joeger has never been afraid to play a two big line up (*sigh*)

Seeing ZBo pop off the bench to shove guys around for 12 minutes a night actually could be fun.

I don't see a lot of holes for the other guys to fill. Shump will probably get some minutes at the 3 if his defense has recovered. Mason will get spot rotation minutes throughout the season, but I have yet to be convinces he is an NBA point guard. Skal is trade bait.