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The TRADE Thread 2021

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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#461 » by RipPizzaGuy » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:12 am

rpa wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Read on Twitter


And that was the series that somehow erased the commodity that was Ben Simmons

IMO I think Morey knows Ben's worth, and he wont be attainable. I think they have to attempt to run it back, if they don't get a nice offer. Even if it means Doc Rivers apologizing or stepping down for that stupid comment about not knowing if Ben can be a championship guard. By the same token if they are forced to trade him, and we outbid, and somehow Fox and Haliburton (and assets) are still on this team, which Im not anticipating, I still wouldnt dig the fit between Simmons, Fox, and Haliburton. That would test the adage of can you have too much playmaking lol


I think the dig against Simmons isn't that he's a bad player--it's that he's a really good player that becomes a liability in the last 2 minutes of a game because:
a) He can't shoot at all (be it jumpers, free throws, whatever)
b) He's far less effective in the half court than in transition (and in the last 2 minutes you won't see any transition play in a close game)

So in the last 2 minutes what do you do? You can't play him off ball because defenders will sag way down. You can put the ball in his hands, but he's not a huge scoring threat--and if he does appear to be gaining an advantage the defense will just foul him.

Don't get me wrong, adding him to the Kings almost certainly makes them better, but I just don't see a package the Kings can offer where the fit maximizes Simmons. Consider:
1) You trade Fox for him straight up. That's great and all, but now you don't have any strong scoring threats. When you need a bucket who exactly do you go to?
2) You trade Hali for him. Even ignoring how value Haliburton is, the problem here is the salary matching. You need shooting around Simmons, but you'd giving up at least one of Hield or Barnes (maybe both) to match salaries. A lineup featuring Fox, Holmes, and Simmons is going to have problems with spacing.
3) You somehow trade Hield/Bagley/picks for him. Great, but now who's your lead ball handler? Whoever it is the other one is going to have to play offball (bad). What about Haliburton? He can get a bunch of touches with Fox and Simmons on the bench, but you're limiting his impact by taking him so far off the ball.


These are all very good points. Very well written and laid out imo.

Its also the big reason id prefer to go after Siakam over Simmons every day of the week. I think between Mitchell/Haliburton/Fox we have our "lead ball handler" role covered. That said, I'm never opposed to bringing in more guys who can handle, id just prefer it to be a guy who can play on/off ball. Simmons isn't that guy. However Siakam absolutely is. Siakam has been miscast as the #1 option the last 2 years, but put him in the #2 role and watch him elevate again.

I see Fox - Hali - Barnes - Siakam - Holmes as the absolute perfect fit. Mitchell - Davis - Harkless - Len is fine of the bench as well.

If we are talking about giving Buddy/Bagley/3 1sts for a guy, id much rather do that for Siakam than Simmons. Even if its considered the right price for Simmons and an overpay for Siakam.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#462 » by RipPizzaGuy » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:19 am

Silver Man wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:I can't be the only one who likes the roster as is right? Everyone is in a rush to trade young guys who haven't had the opportunity to develop and I don't get it. We have three ball handlers already so I don't understand the infatuation with Simmons who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.


I don't think really anyone besides the front office is in a rush to trade the youth. I think the general consensus is to build around Haliburton, Fox, and now Mitchell (even if we all didnt like the pick).


I'm not so sure the front office is in a rush to trade them either. I think that if one of them was available, the trade would have been done by now.

My theory is that the Kings were offering #9 for Simmons pre-draft. Morey turned it down thinking he would get more, and now the team loves off-night.

My guess is now the offer is Bagley/Buddy/picks.

Honestly, if Bagley and Hield would just buy in, I wouldn't hate this roster. But the fact they had a Hield deal that fell through, and Bagley/his dad have been so vocal wanting out, the bridges have been burnt. In theory -

Holmes/Tristan/Len
Barnes/Bagley/Metu
Hield/Harkless
Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
Fox/Mitchell

This starting lineup had some success last year. Its undersized, but they can score with anyone. And that bench really isn't bad. Davis/Bagley can both score, Tristan/Bagley are good rebounders, Mitchell/Harkless are good defenders. We have shooting in the starting lineup and off the bench.

I just have a hard time seeing Bagley/Hield giving any effort in a Kings jersey next year.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#463 » by simonbampfield » Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:07 am

RipPizzaGuy wrote:
Silver Man wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:I can't be the only one who likes the roster as is right? Everyone is in a rush to trade young guys who haven't had the opportunity to develop and I don't get it. We have three ball handlers already so I don't understand the infatuation with Simmons who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.


I don't think really anyone besides the front office is in a rush to trade the youth. I think the general consensus is to build around Haliburton, Fox, and now Mitchell (even if we all didnt like the pick).


I'm not so sure the front office is in a rush to trade them either. I think that if one of them was available, the trade would have been done by now.

My theory is that the Kings were offering #9 for Simmons pre-draft. Morey turned it down thinking he would get more, and now the team loves off-night.

My guess is now the offer is Bagley/Buddy/picks.

Honestly, if Bagley and Hield would just buy in, I wouldn't hate this roster. But the fact they had a Hield deal that fell through, and Bagley/his dad have been so vocal wanting out, the bridges have been burnt. In theory -

Holmes/Tristan/Len
Barnes/Bagley/Metu
Hield/Harkless
Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
Fox/Mitchell

This starting lineup had some success last year. Its undersized, but they can score with anyone. And that bench really isn't bad. Davis/Bagley can both score, Tristan/Bagley are good rebounders, Mitchell/Harkless are good defenders. We have shooting in the starting lineup and off the bench.

I just have a hard time seeing Bagley/Hield giving any effort in a Kings jersey next year.

I would have to agree with this. I honestly would have liked Monte to be given the green light to fire Luke late last season so he could have been on the coaching search for the person he wants to lead this roster.

Because at the end of the day, as I have said before, Monte isn't going to get too many more offseasons so I wonder if he is going to get the chance to hire his own coach.
If he eventually does and he goes too far the other way and has just a defensive team/coach then I wouldn't like that at all.
I think the players are there to play decent D. I just honestly think Luke doesn't have a clue how to instill a defensive game plan. ?Like it is what he has been preaching for his entire time here and he has only made it worse.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#464 » by RipPizzaGuy » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:52 pm

simonbampfield wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:
Silver Man wrote:
I don't think really anyone besides the front office is in a rush to trade the youth. I think the general consensus is to build around Haliburton, Fox, and now Mitchell (even if we all didnt like the pick).


I'm not so sure the front office is in a rush to trade them either. I think that if one of them was available, the trade would have been done by now.

My theory is that the Kings were offering #9 for Simmons pre-draft. Morey turned it down thinking he would get more, and now the team loves off-night.

My guess is now the offer is Bagley/Buddy/picks.

Honestly, if Bagley and Hield would just buy in, I wouldn't hate this roster. But the fact they had a Hield deal that fell through, and Bagley/his dad have been so vocal wanting out, the bridges have been burnt. In theory -

Holmes/Tristan/Len
Barnes/Bagley/Metu
Hield/Harkless
Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
Fox/Mitchell

This starting lineup had some success last year. Its undersized, but they can score with anyone. And that bench really isn't bad. Davis/Bagley can both score, Tristan/Bagley are good rebounders, Mitchell/Harkless are good defenders. We have shooting in the starting lineup and off the bench.

I just have a hard time seeing Bagley/Hield giving any effort in a Kings jersey next year.

I would have to agree with this. I honestly would have liked Monte to be given the green light to fire Luke late last season so he could have been on the coaching search for the person he wants to lead this roster.

Because at the end of the day, as I have said before, Monte isn't going to get too many more offseasons so I wonder if he is going to get the chance to hire his own coach.
If he eventually does and he goes too far the other way and has just a defensive team/coach then I wouldn't like that at all.
I think the players are there to play decent D. I just honestly think Luke doesn't have a clue how to instill a defensive game plan. ?Like it is what he has been preaching for his entire time here and he has only made it worse.


Couldn't agree more about the defense part of things. Realistically -

Fox - Not the best defender, but he has the ability
Haliburton - Plus defender
Barnes - Sold Defender
Holmes - Solid defender

then we have 1 really bad defender in Bagley/Hield (although I don't think Hield is that bad man to man, hes just lazy on switches and gets caught sleeping on back doors).

I mean we swapped Bogdan for Hali which was a defensive improvement, yet we became one of the worst defensive teams in history. That has to fall on Luke.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#465 » by Lost in LA » Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:58 pm

What aspect of coaching is Walton meant to excel at? It is not obvious to say the least.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#466 » by OscarH » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:49 am

Lost in LA wrote:What aspect of coaching is Walton meant to excel at? It is not obvious to say the least.


Players like him, he gives them quite a lot of freedom with options in the plays they run, and that produced top 12 offensive rating.

I don't worry about Buddy working hard, one thing you can say about Buudy is he works hard off court and works hard for shots.
My main worry is starting both Buddy and Bagley purely to make trade vaule higher.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#467 » by OGSactownballer » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:08 am

OscarH wrote:
Lost in LA wrote:What aspect of coaching is Walton meant to excel at? It is not obvious to say the least.


Players like him, he gives them quite a lot of freedom with options in the plays they run, and that produced top 12 offensive rating.

I don't worry about Buddy working hard, one thing you can say about Buudy is he works hard off court and works hard for shots.
My main worry is starting both Buddy and Bagley purely to make trade vaule higher.


Thisnis where the fact that Luke is fools gold is highlighted.

Luke’s first shot at the top seat came with a team that was already a championship team with an offense for the ages.

More importantly, they had veteran leaders that really didn’t need a coach except to call timeouts and make proper substitutions.

What you saw with the alameda was what he truly is. A players coach but no control or ability to game plan - especially defensively.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#468 » by RipPizzaGuy » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:15 pm

Just posted about this on the T&T Board, but I think Sac should be in the market to pick up a guy like Reddish for cheap. Maybe the Hawks do us a favor for gifting them Wright?

There rotation seems wayyy to crowded.

Trae/Wright
Huerter/Bogdan/Lou
Hunter/Reddish/Johnson
Collins/Gallo/Hill
Capela/OO/Dieng

Maybe a 3 team trade -

OKC gives a 2nd for Bagley
Sac gives a 2nd for Reddish
ATL gets 2 2nds for Reddish

Holmes/Tristan/Len
Barnes/Harkless/Metu
Reddish/Hield
Hali/Davis
Fox/Mitchell

Buddy/Davis/Mitchell leading the bench unit should be able to put up points. Reddish has been a solid defender and has some pretty decent size.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#469 » by OscarH » Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:02 am

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Just posted about this on the T&T Board, but I think Sac should be in the market to pick up a guy like Reddish for cheap. Maybe the Hawks do us a favor for gifting them Wright?

There rotation seems wayyy to crowded.

Trae/Wright
Huerter/Bogdan/Lou
Hunter/Reddish/Johnson
Collins/Gallo/Hill
Capela/OO/Dieng

Maybe a 3 team trade -

OKC gives a 2nd for Bagley
Sac gives a 2nd for Reddish
ATL gets 2 2nds for Reddish

Holmes/Tristan/Len
Barnes/Harkless/Metu
Reddish/Hield
Hali/Davis
Fox/Mitchell

Buddy/Davis/Mitchell leading the bench unit should be able to put up points. Reddish has been a solid defender and has some pretty decent size.


Could see this midseason when the shine of Reddish playoffs is gone and he reverts to his mean.

Reddish, Culver, Knoxs feels like the type of play FO make to give illusion getting something back for Bagley, whilst team getting Bagley is selling that to there fan base and hope lower expectations plus some humble pie may help them find a role in the league.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#470 » by BoogieTime » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:37 pm

Don't look now, but Kings are odds favorites to land Ben Simmons by many bookkeepers

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/ben-simmons-trade-odds-update-kings-are-now-the-favorites/

Interesting. Maybe the Ben Simmons wants to play for a California team EVEN stretches to Sacramento.

We know the Kings are interested, and one team isnt liking what the other is currently offering. Sixers are reported to want more than Fox, and the Kings are reported to want less than Fox. Even someone who supports the Kings acquiring Simmons would never part with much more than Fox, as Morey is rumored to seek.

Perhaps Morey is waiting on a Lillard trade request that doesn't seem to be coming, or he thinks he is going to field better offers from the field of teams interested as training camp nears.

I'm not seeing the Kings acquiring Simmons offering a blasé package of players or picks that another team like San Antonio would easily beat. Hield/Barnes/Bagley and a war chest of picks still wouldnt get it done IMO, and Simmons would be an odd fit with Fox/Holmes

Kings are going to need to step up with Fox or a combination of quality assets IMO. We'll see if they do, and if the Sixers accept if they do
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#471 » by OGSactownballer » Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:52 am

See I don’t agree.

Attrition is going to hurt value exponentially as the season approaches.

Nobody has even seemingly picked up the phone with Morey’s insane ask.

I think there will come a meeting pint and it will include the basic package a prospect off our young SL group and two picks and a swap.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#472 » by Tomjas » Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:06 am

OGSactownballer wrote:See I don’t agree.

Attrition is going to hurt value exponentially as the season approaches.

Nobody has even seemingly picked up the phone with Morey’s insane ask.

I think there will come a meeting pint and it will include the basic package a prospect off our young SL group and two picks and a swap.


I suggest that you look at the Sixers roster

Sixers have no great need for those players so it’s dead in the water unless you can find a 3rd team that has something they want
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#473 » by rpa » Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:45 pm

OGSactownballer wrote:See I don’t agree.

Attrition is going to hurt value exponentially as the season approaches.

Nobody has even seemingly picked up the phone with Morey’s insane ask.

I think there will come a meeting pint and it will include the basic package a prospect off our young SL group and two picks and a swap.


The basic problem is that if the cost of Simmons is just 2 picks and salary filler then half the teams in the league would take the Sixers up on that offer. It'll probably be more.

What I think is clear is that Morey is looking for an upgrade to Simmons and not interested in breaking apart his value into multiple pieces. Since a trade hasn't happened we can assume no such upgrade has been offered and that it's likely that Morey holds onto Simmons until either:
a) His hand is forced in some way (I think Simmons will break first tbh)
b) The upgrade comes to fruition--either via a simple 2-team trade or something more complex

That all being said, I think (a) is more likely than (b). Beal and Lillard aren't going to be on the block until next summer most likely and those 2 are the only guard upgrades to Simmons that will realistically hit the market in the next 12 months.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#474 » by BoogieTime » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:57 pm

rpa wrote:
OGSactownballer wrote:See I don’t agree.

Attrition is going to hurt value exponentially as the season approaches.

Nobody has even seemingly picked up the phone with Morey’s insane ask.

I think there will come a meeting pint and it will include the basic package a prospect off our young SL group and two picks and a swap.


The basic problem is that if the cost of Simmons is just 2 picks and salary filler then half the teams in the league would take the Sixers up on that offer. It'll probably be more.

What I think is clear is that Morey is looking for an upgrade to Simmons and not interested in breaking apart his value into multiple pieces. Since a trade hasn't happened we can assume no such upgrade has been offered and that it's likely that Morey holds onto Simmons until either:
a) His hand is forced in some way (I think Simmons will break first tbh)
b) The upgrade comes to fruition--either via a simple 2-team trade or something more complex

That all being said, I think (a) is more likely than (b). Beal and Lillard aren't going to be on the block until next summer most likely and those 2 are the only guard upgrades to Simmons that will realistically hit the market in the next 12 months.


I agree. I think he's waiting on Lillard specifically. Although you known my position that Fox 8 years younger should be the better asset if he's remotely being offered, I think they are looking for Embiid's window specifically. So they might prefer Lillard to another team's young pieces, whichever they may be

Maxey is looking like a fine SG prospect, and Beal is expiring and hasn't really shown much team impact with a checkered injury history. So, not so sure about him, but I guess that's plausible as well.

I think Morey believes he can wait until literally the last minute (Ben actively forcing himself out, maybe very start of training camp) to find a deal, and that the offers wont be decreasing
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#475 » by rpa » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:19 pm

BoogieTime wrote:I agree. I think he's waiting on Lillard specifically. Although you known my position that Fox 8 years younger should be the better asset if he's remotely being offered, I think they are looking for Embiid's window specifically. So they might prefer Lillard to another team's young pieces, whichever they may be


100% this. Embiid's injury history makes me think Philly should optimize for the short-mid term and not necessarily the longterm. It doesn't hurt that Lillard is also the far better player right now and into the foreseeable future.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#476 » by graymule » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:58 pm

:D

The only trade that might net the Kings Cam Reddish of the Hawks is Haliburton. That is not likely to happen. Quit dreaming that a second round pick or two will do the job. Reddish is on tract to be an all star. He's top notch defensive and very good offensive.

I was a Hawk fan, hoping we would draft Haliburton. I still believe that he's great. But, as a Hawk fan, Reddish is great too.

Since the draft last season, the Kings = my favorite west coast team. I root for them all the time except when they meet the Hawks.

Kings are improving. I expect to see them in the playoffs at season's end....

:D
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#477 » by BoogieTime » Wed Sep 1, 2021 6:53 am

Oddsmakers have us as the favorite for Simmons

Jason Anderson has us not moving Fox/Hali, so far

Will be interesting to see how the saga in Philly ends
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#478 » by simonbampfield » Wed Sep 1, 2021 10:11 am

BoogieTime wrote:Oddsmakers have us as the favorite for Simmons

Jason Anderson has us not moving Fox/Hali, so far

Will be interesting to see how the saga in Philly ends


Honestly, I don't see it with the Kings. I just wonder if McNair has the nuggets to trade Fox or Hali for Simmons. And less than that is where Philly isn't going to be interested.
I say that with this though, the Kings roster would make more sense with Fox going out, Ben running the point and Hali manning the 1. I still don't support this, but just saying.

A running line-up of the below in certain situations with Ben running point would be fun to watch in the RS.
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Ben
Bagley
Just need a B at the 1 spot to fill it out.
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#479 » by kalenclayton » Wed Sep 1, 2021 4:48 pm

simonbampfield wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:Oddsmakers have us as the favorite for Simmons

Jason Anderson has us not moving Fox/Hali, so far

Will be interesting to see how the saga in Philly ends


Honestly, I don't see it with the Kings. I just wonder if McNair has the nuggets to trade Fox or Hali for Simmons. And less than that is where Philly isn't going to be interested.
I say that with this though, the Kings roster would make more sense with Fox going out, Ben running the point and Hali manning the 1. I still don't support this, but just saying.

A running line-up of the below in certain situations with Ben running point would be fun to watch in the RS.
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Ben
Bagley
Just need a B at the 1 spot to fill it out.

‘Burton?
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Re: The TRADE Thread 2021 

Post#480 » by BoogieTime » Wed Sep 1, 2021 6:25 pm

It was pointed out to me in the trades/transactions forum that the word "unlikely" that the Kings would deal Fox or Hali is different from wouldnt deal them...

Is that semantics, or is it truth?

Are the Kings not fully closing the door on it?

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