ImageImageImageImageImage

2020/2021 general thread

Moderators: codydaze, KF10, City of Trees

BoogieTime
Analyst
Posts: 3,659
And1: 1,345
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
 

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#21 » by BoogieTime » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:35 am

My other hot take on Fox as of now is I think he might function better as a SG, alongside PG Hali

Not sure he has the motor/leadership/alpha in him to command a team consistently, or to solidly defend PGs night in night out (his d has been slipping)

He played well under Joerger, and in the bubble, but pattern this preseason resembled what it was in the spring. The starters are coming out lethargic without leadership IMO, for the bench to save the unit. De’aaron put up a respectable 21/7, but it usually wasn’t the kind from my vantage that controlled the games tempo (though he is only turning 23 now)

This is to say I think the team might be better in a more consistent, lead dog’s hands. Fox, despite his frame, might find it easier to check SGs, but that is argumentative.
MarxyLebronist
Junior
Posts: 459
And1: 232
Joined: Nov 30, 2020

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#22 » by MarxyLebronist » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:42 pm

Fox is more of a 6th man type but without an outside shot that can actually tax a contemporary switch or zone D. He's fun for sure in a sort of fall-apart game scenario (aka garbage time). Hield seems to really like to work with the ball in his hands, too. He's behind only Harden in the last 2 years for unassisted 3s (he'd likely be third if Curry were healthy, or maybe Lillard sneaks ahead, etc.- all non "point" guards who can also rack up assists, basically).

It's a really bad model, these two together, sort of a poor man's Harden-Westbrook disaster, which is not thrilling, and with equally bad defense in a no-accountability, non-coached scenario.

They're not making the playoffs and can't possibly build better around their 3 big contract guys. Having said that, Hield's contract descends and none of them top $30 million per, next year. Can't believe they already spent all the room their expirings would have created by committing to Fox like this. The coach is also a major problem (I don't think he's worked a day in his life, frankly). But to give major F/C playing time to four old man expiring contracts (Holmes, Parker, Whiteside, Bjelica) screams laziness, desperation, lack of planning. Once again, I want to see them succeed. To that end, no reason to drink the Kool Aid and Pollyanna this thing. Build it right, right now.

Anyway:
Can't ship Fox out all year due to timing of extension, as I understand it. Halliburton is the one big hit they've got to their name right now. Like Guy and Metu a lot, too, but everyone else wholly expendable. Bjelica has a role but is also seeking his next contract and clearly is not happy playing alongside most of this roster. Wouldn't bet against Vivek helping his friends down the highway by trading them Bjelica into the DPE they got for Thompson.

Giving Halliburton the keys as soon as possible, whatever the dynamic will ultimately be, is imperative. This is looking like a major running in place season so far with Walton happier to chat with Kerr after losses than devise good plans for a challenging year. Looks like he's just collecting his check and awaiting the next axe to fall, really. No idea who to bring in besides, but will say that the league will not begrudge Vivek for moving on from Walton. He's not getting tons of offers from the rest of the league at this point.
Basketball is the opiate of the masses
-Karl Marx, a Lakers fan
OGSactownballer
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,293
And1: 508
Joined: Oct 02, 2005

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#23 » by OGSactownballer » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:28 pm

BoogieTime wrote:
OGSactownballer wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Well, im very concerned about -44 in four games, shot looking broke, and having no “imprint” on the games. It’s looked nothing remote to his new contract

Now, can he flip some switch because the games start to become official in less than a week?

I’d personally be wary but who knows.


So be honest here.

So you really want him to go off at 1000% and get injured?

Or should he have just been working on some refinements or game tweaks, playing enough time to get to know the new guys and get into game shape and be ready to start the season?

I’m all about option B. It was preseason and ultimately holds zero meaning.


I mean Steph/Dame aren’t 100% excusing not competing while decisively outplaying him.

Competitors typically take the preseason personal to some degree too

I tend to consider it like a play rehearsal. Obviously players aren’t “going all out”, but it might give directional hints of what’s to come

We’ll see. Hopefully he is going half speed and is able to flip some switch


I have to say you’re comparing apples to oranges.

Steph/Dame are older, established stars that have created their “level” no matter WHAT they do in the preseason.

Essentially the is for them is the “get in shape” period and “stay healthy” period and nothing more.

I think that the several major injuries suffers over the past few years in pre season over exertion have quelled a lot of vets desire to go full bore for any extended period of time in the pre season.

For Fox, he still has to prove his ownership of a “star” spot. Therefore even this abbreviated ore season becomes about developing new stuff.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#24 » by RipPizzaGuy » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:40 pm

OGSactownballer wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
OGSactownballer wrote:
So be honest here.

So you really want him to go off at 1000% and get injured?

Or should he have just been working on some refinements or game tweaks, playing enough time to get to know the new guys and get into game shape and be ready to start the season?

I’m all about option B. It was preseason and ultimately holds zero meaning.


I mean Steph/Dame aren’t 100% excusing not competing while decisively outplaying him.

Competitors typically take the preseason personal to some degree too

I tend to consider it like a play rehearsal. Obviously players aren’t “going all out”, but it might give directional hints of what’s to come

We’ll see. Hopefully he is going half speed and is able to flip some switch


I have to say you’re comparing apples to oranges.

Steph/Dame are older, established stars that have created their “level” no matter WHAT they do in the preseason.

Essentially the is for them is the “get in shape” period and “stay healthy” period and nothing more.

I think that the several major injuries suffers over the past few years in pre season over exertion have quelled a lot of vets desire to go full bore for any extended period of time in the pre season.

For Fox, he still has to prove his ownership of a “star” spot. Therefore even this abbreviated ore season becomes about developing new stuff.


This exactly. Also Fox isn't really comparable to Lillard/Curry. Those are probably the 2 best established pgs in the league, both over 30, and 2 of the best 3pt shooters in the entire league.

Fox's game is built on getting to the rim. After his injury last year, i'd much rather see him just play passive and chuck up a bunch of 3s rather than risk getting injuried to appease fans during meaningless games.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#25 » by RipPizzaGuy » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:42 pm

BoogieTime wrote:My other hot take on Fox as of now is I think he might function better as a SG, alongside PG Hali

Not sure he has the motor/leadership/alpha in him to command a team consistently, or to solidly defend PGs night in night out (his d has been slipping)

He played well under Joerger, and in the bubble, but pattern this preseason resembled what it was in the spring. The starters are coming out lethargic without leadership IMO, for the bench to save the unit. De’aaron put up a respectable 21/7, but it usually wasn’t the kind from my vantage that controlled the games tempo (though he is only turning 23 now)

This is to say I think the team might be better in a more consistent, lead dog’s hands. Fox, despite his frame, might find it easier to check SGs, but that is argumentative.


Fox/Haliburton are interchangeable at the 1/2. For the first time in forever we have 2 guys who can handle, pass, and create for the team and themselves. Would love to see them both average 6+ assists for the year.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#26 » by RipPizzaGuy » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:24 pm

With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.
MarxyLebronist
Junior
Posts: 459
And1: 232
Joined: Nov 30, 2020

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#27 » by MarxyLebronist » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:36 pm

Bogdan is not a King though, and they wildly overpaid Barnes, Hield, and Fox instead of keeping him.
Basketball is the opiate of the masses
-Karl Marx, a Lakers fan
nolimit0820
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,553
And1: 98
Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#28 » by nolimit0820 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:13 am

RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.
MarxyLebronist
Junior
Posts: 459
And1: 232
Joined: Nov 30, 2020

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#29 » by MarxyLebronist » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:57 am

nolimit0820 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


I can understand why "McNair" panicked and maxed out Fox within a week of the deal falling through, would be another speculative take on the matter after the fact (and I would vastly prefer to have DiVicenzo and his VERY friendly team option for next year over Hield, Fox, Barnes, Bogdan, etc.).
Basketball is the opiate of the masses
-Karl Marx, a Lakers fan
nolimit0820
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,553
And1: 98
Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#30 » by nolimit0820 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:21 am

nolimit0820 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


Speaking of Isaac's contract - I would love to lock in Bagley around there, assuming he has a healthy and strong year.
BoogieTime
Analyst
Posts: 3,659
And1: 1,345
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
 

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#31 » by BoogieTime » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:18 am

RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.



Im sure age is a function. Bogdan is headed to his 30s. Those are younger players who are expected to improve by those teams
User avatar
City of Trees
Forum Mod - Kings
Forum Mod - Kings
Posts: 13,991
And1: 3,919
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
Location: Roseville, CA
   

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#32 » by City of Trees » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:58 am

MarxyLebronist wrote:
nolimit0820 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


I can understand why "McNair" panicked and maxed out Fox within a week of the deal falling through, would be another speculative take on the matter after the fact (and I would vastly prefer to have DiVicenzo and his VERY friendly team option for next year over Hield, Fox, Barnes, Bogdan, etc.).
I'd bet money McNair prefers Donte DiVincenzo to Buddy, Barnes, and Bogi but it didn't work out.

As for Fox I can see why some aren't thrilled with his max contract extension. Question marks remain scattered throughout his production however he appears to be a player who lands closer to his potential versus falling flat.

If I was McNair I would have extended him as well.
MarxyLebronist
Junior
Posts: 459
And1: 232
Joined: Nov 30, 2020

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#33 » by MarxyLebronist » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:06 am

City of Trees wrote:
MarxyLebronist wrote:
nolimit0820 wrote:
Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


I can understand why "McNair" panicked and maxed out Fox within a week of the deal falling through, would be another speculative take on the matter after the fact (and I would vastly prefer to have DiVicenzo and his VERY friendly team option for next year over Hield, Fox, Barnes, Bogdan, etc.).
I'd bet money McNair prefers Donte DiVincenzo to Buddy, Barnes, and Bogi but it didn't work out.

As for Fox I can see why some aren't thrilled with his max contract extension. Question marks remain scattered throughout his production however he appears to be a player who lands closer to his potential versus falling flat.

If I was McNair I would have extended him as well.


Now that the dust has settled on extension deadline day, many many teams are on the hook for stupid stupid money. Maxing the guys who at least have the numbers and some plus upside, like Fox, won’t look terrible overall. The guy I was adamantly saying not to pay and to trade as soon as something interesting came along (Kuzma, Lakers) miraculously has one of the better extensions. There’s just no teaching NBA GMs and no amount of rule riggings will save them from themselves lol.
Basketball is the opiate of the masses
-Karl Marx, a Lakers fan
nolang1
Analyst
Posts: 3,744
And1: 1,671
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#34 » by nolang1 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:49 pm

RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


White and OG are clearly better, Kennard is about the same and probably a little better when healthy. Also you do realize that players start their careers at different ages, right? It's not saying much that 27-year-old Bogdan was better than 21-year-old Fultz last season.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#35 » by RipPizzaGuy » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:40 pm

nolimit0820 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


I understand it completely. Just was kinda pointing out how lots of Kings fans said he got overpaid because the market. I never agreed with that. He was worth the contract, just not for us with Haliburton, Fox, Buddy locked in.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#36 » by RipPizzaGuy » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:44 pm

City of Trees wrote:
MarxyLebronist wrote:
nolimit0820 wrote:
Now that he is gone, I understand why McNair couldn't financially shackle us with his contract. I can even see how Bogdan's absence might free Buddy to hopefully take another step. With that said, Bogdan's contract is light compared to those other guys. Isaac got a 4 year 80 million dollar contract too.


I can understand why "McNair" panicked and maxed out Fox within a week of the deal falling through, would be another speculative take on the matter after the fact (and I would vastly prefer to have DiVicenzo and his VERY friendly team option for next year over Hield, Fox, Barnes, Bogdan, etc.).
I'd bet money McNair prefers Donte DiVincenzo to Buddy, Barnes, and Bogi but it didn't work out.

As for Fox I can see why some aren't thrilled with his max contract extension. Question marks remain scattered throughout his production however he appears to be a player who lands closer to his potential versus falling flat.

If I was McNair I would have extended him as well.


Extending him was a no brainer. Even with the injury he took a big leap last year. That was with a play style that didn't fit his game. If walton lets the kids run, he is in line for massive success.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#37 » by RipPizzaGuy » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:47 pm

nolang1 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


White and OG are clearly better, Kennard is about the same and probably a little better when healthy. Also you do realize that players start their careers at different ages, right? It's not saying much that 27-year-old Bogdan was better than 21-year-old Fultz last season.


What about White makes you think hes "clearly better" than Bogdan? Oh ya... White is also 26.5 YO.

Fultz is a broken player, but sure I understand gambling on his potential. I don't think that was an awful contract, the same way that Bogdan's contract clearly wasn't awful either.
User avatar
ThunderBolt
Forum Mod - Thunder
Forum Mod - Thunder
Posts: 16,284
And1: 14,599
Joined: Dec 29, 2016
Location: Bentonville, AR
   

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#38 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:38 pm

Good listen. I wish woj would have pressed him more on the Bogdanovic situation but it’s understandable he tries to stay on the good side of GMs.

Read on Twitter
nolang1
Analyst
Posts: 3,744
And1: 1,671
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#39 » by nolang1 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:28 pm

RipPizzaGuy wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:With the news of today's contracts, I remember lots of Kings fans saying Bogdan was slightly overpaid. I would say after we see these contracts hes either slightly underpaid or paid just right.

Kennard - 4/64
Derrick White - 4/73
OG - 4/72
Kuzma - 3/41
Fultz - 3/50

I have Bogdan clearly better than all of those guys except maybe OG.


White and OG are clearly better, Kennard is about the same and probably a little better when healthy. Also you do realize that players start their careers at different ages, right? It's not saying much that 27-year-old Bogdan was better than 21-year-old Fultz last season.


What about White makes you think hes "clearly better" than Bogdan? Oh ya... White is also 26.5 YO.

Fultz is a broken player, but sure I understand gambling on his potential. I don't think that was an awful contract, the same way that Bogdan's contract clearly wasn't awful either.


He can actually play defense and in the bubble when he got to start, he averaged 23, 5, and 6 per 36 minutes. Lol were you expecting that to be some brain teaser of a question?

Also Fultz's and Bogdan's contracts only look comparable when you just look at the straight dollar amounts and ignore the players' ages. There's a big difference between a team option in the last year versus a player option plus a trade kicker.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 11,276
And1: 6,918
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: 2020/2021 general thread 

Post#40 » by RipPizzaGuy » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:47 pm

nolang1 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
White and OG are clearly better, Kennard is about the same and probably a little better when healthy. Also you do realize that players start their careers at different ages, right? It's not saying much that 27-year-old Bogdan was better than 21-year-old Fultz last season.


What about White makes you think hes "clearly better" than Bogdan? Oh ya... White is also 26.5 YO.

Fultz is a broken player, but sure I understand gambling on his potential. I don't think that was an awful contract, the same way that Bogdan's contract clearly wasn't awful either.


He can actually play defense and in the bubble when he got to start, he averaged 23, 5, and 6 per 36 minutes. Lol were you expecting that to be some brain teaser of a question?

Also Fultz's and Bogdan's contracts only look comparable when you just look at the straight dollar amounts and ignore the players' ages. There's a big difference between a team option in the last year versus a player option plus a trade kicker.


So we are picking random 8 game samples and judging players solely based on that now?

When Fox was out early in the season, Bogdan had an 8 game stretch where he averaged 21, 6.5, 4 while shooting 53% from the 3pt line on 7 attempts per game. We went 5-3 and he was instrumental in winning us most of those games.

Does that mean anything?

Why are you so hyper focused on Fultz? Hes a pg, I simply put him in as another example because he signed that day. That said he has been trash and was signed simply on potential, so yes Bogdan is older but hes also the far safer bet to live up to his contract. There were plenty of other guys to mention.

Again, I'm not upset that the Kings didn't resign him. Once it was clear we couldn't move Buddy and Haliburton fell to us it made zero sense to tie up another 70+ million. That said his contract is more than fair.

Not sure why you are constantly so aggressive in your responses.. I literally asked you a simple question? Get your panties out of a bunch.

Return to Sacramento Kings