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Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton?

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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#21 » by Tomjas » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:25 am

Hi guys

Sixers fan here

Why don’t you just continue to grow organically?

Simmons is with Klutch so it’s not happening

Only chance you have for Embiid is if he’s crocked so not worth it anyway

Collect assets and develop them
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#22 » by SmellingColors » Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:27 pm

Tomjas wrote:Hi guys

Sixers fan here

Why don’t you just continue to grow organically?

Simmons is with Klutch so it’s not happening

Only chance you have for Embiid is if he’s crocked so not worth it anyway

Collect assets and develop them


I think that's probably what most fans want, honestly, but we've missed the playoffs for 15 years and are about to set a record for 16 next year if they don't change it up. I think the FO feels pressure from that.

I never thought Simmons would be traded to Sac, still don't, but we'll see. I'd rather have Thybulle, but I imagine he's near untouchable for the Sixers.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#23 » by Tomjas » Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:27 am

SmellingColors wrote:
Tomjas wrote:Hi guys

Sixers fan here

Why don’t you just continue to grow organically?

Simmons is with Klutch so it’s not happening

Only chance you have for Embiid is if he’s crocked so not worth it anyway

Collect assets and develop them


I think that's probably what most fans want, honestly, but we've missed the playoffs for 15 years and are about to set a record for 16 next year if they don't change it up. I think the FO feels pressure from that.

I never thought Simmons would be traded to Sac, still don't, but we'll see. I'd rather have Thybulle, but I imagine he's near untouchable for the Sixers.


I live in a part of Australia where our 2 major sporting franchises are worse than the Kings in spite of being given every conceivable advantage by government and the sports ruling bodies

I often compare them to the most dominant sporting franchise in the country which is the Melbourne Storm

It all starts at the top & the Storm has by far the best front office and coaching staff of any sports franchise here

If the Kings are truly serious then they should throw the bank at people of the caliber of Masai, Pop etc, have them establish a culture and build from there
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#24 » by KF10 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:03 pm

So according to Stein, the Kings are interested in Ben Simmons.

I know Ben gets a lot of hate and is the most recent NBA punching bag of jokes but the guy is still a hell of a player. If we are able to get him, that would be great.

I know the Sixers will want to start the talks with Fox on the table, and I would actually listen. As much as I love Fox, Simmons is the better player. Simmons is a 2x 1st all team defense and 1x all nba and 3x all star. Give Simmons a team with full of shooters and defense, and he will lead this team to the POs.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#25 » by BoogieTime » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:21 pm

KF10 wrote:So according to Stein, the Kings are interested in Ben Simmons.

I know Ben gets a lot of hate and is the most recent NBA punching bag of jokes but the guy is still a hell of a player. If we are able to get him, that would be great.

I know the Sixers will want to start the talks with Fox on the table, and I would actually listen. As much as I love Fox, Simmons is the better player. Simmons is a 2x 1st all team defense and 1x all nba and 3x all star. Give Simmons a team with full of shooters and defense, and he will lead this team to the POs.


Id have Fox/Simmons at the same value. So, its an interesting concept

People are mistaken on Simmons talent level IMO, it is high.

The Kings aren't in talks for offering spare parts.

The thing about a move like this is you can play Simmons defensively at other positions, so if you like a Davion Mitchell, lets say, it opens up positional variability for the draft
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#26 » by kb02 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:31 pm

KF10 wrote:So according to Stein, the Kings are interested in Ben Simmons.

I know Ben gets a lot of hate and is the most recent NBA punching bag of jokes but the guy is still a hell of a player. If we are able to get him, that would be great.

I know the Sixers will want to start the talks with Fox on the table, and I would actually listen. As much as I love Fox, Simmons is the better player. Simmons is a 2x 1st all team defense and 1x all nba and 3x all star. Give Simmons a team with full of shooters and defense, and he will lead this team to the POs.


I would trade Fox for Simmons in a heartbeat. Would try to squeeze 28 out of Philly and would include any Kings player not named Hali.

Then move Hali to the starting PG spot, draft Bouknight, Barnes, Simmons, center (Holmes or if he’s not retained Bagley or if he’s traded Olynk). At 28 take Donsumu. At 39 take Herb Jones. Buddy off the bench unless he’s traded. Kings end up with a starting 5 that can switch on defense, a second that can run and defend and shoot if Buddy is retained.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#27 » by City of Trees » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:35 pm

I'm not trading Fox for Simmons.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#28 » by RipPizzaGuy » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:57 pm

Trading Fox for Simmons is a non starter for me.

Simmons feels like the kind of guy who a trade to Sacramento either humbles him and takes him to the next level, or completely breaks him as a player and continues his downwards trend. Mentally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Id rather not trade for him and go for other guys, but if the FO is deadset on it, you could talk me into #9 + Buddy + Bagley as the max. Maybe swap Buddy for Barnes. Like I've said the team would fit like dog crap, but at least the talent is there with Fox - Hali - Barnes - Simmons - Holmes. Probably zero room to grow but I could at least see them being a sweep in the first round.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#29 » by SmellingColors » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:10 pm

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Trading Fox for Simmons is a non starter for me.

Simmons feels like the kind of guy who a trade to Sacramento either humbles him and takes him to the next level, or completely breaks him as a player and continues his downwards trend. Mentally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Id rather not trade for him and go for other guys, but if the FO is deadset on it, you could talk me into #9 + Buddy + Bagley as the max. Maybe swap Buddy for Barnes. Like I've said the team would fit like dog crap, but at least the talent is there with Fox - Hali - Barnes - Simmons - Holmes. Probably zero room to grow but I could at least see them being a sweep in the first round.


This is where I'm at. Simmons is borderline the same player he was when he entered the league. Fox has improved every year. Fox/Embiid would have a legit chance at a title. Simmons on this team without Fox would probably make the playoffs which is the most I think I could say.

Fox has also bought into Sac and I don't think Simmons will. It also tethers our playoff contention hopes to the development of Hali and Simmons plus any additional picks. I'm high on Haliburton, but I don't think his role is best served as the primary scorer which is what he'd have to be.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#30 » by RipPizzaGuy » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:15 pm

SmellingColors wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:Trading Fox for Simmons is a non starter for me.

Simmons feels like the kind of guy who a trade to Sacramento either humbles him and takes him to the next level, or completely breaks him as a player and continues his downwards trend. Mentally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Id rather not trade for him and go for other guys, but if the FO is deadset on it, you could talk me into #9 + Buddy + Bagley as the max. Maybe swap Buddy for Barnes. Like I've said the team would fit like dog crap, but at least the talent is there with Fox - Hali - Barnes - Simmons - Holmes. Probably zero room to grow but I could at least see them being a sweep in the first round.


This is where I'm at. Simmons is borderline the same player he was when he entered the league. Fox has improved every year. Fox/Embiid would have a legit chance at a title. Simmons on this team without Fox would probably make the playoffs which is the most I think I could say.

Fox has also bought into Sac and I don't think Simmons will. It also tethers our playoff contention hopes to the development of Hali and Simmons plus any additional picks. I'm high on Haliburton, but I don't think his role is best served as the primary scorer which is what he'd have to be.


Good point. Oh lord, could you imagine the scenario. We trade Fox for Simmons. Next year we run Hali - Buddy - Barnes - SImmons - Holmes.

Closing out games we are relying on Buddy Freaking Hield to be our top scorer. Makes me sick. I've been through enough as a Kings fan, at least I tune in to enjoy watching Fox/Hali.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#31 » by sackings916 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:49 pm

Put everything on the table for Simmons other than Fox and Haliburton.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#32 » by BoogieTime » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:23 pm

sackings916 wrote:Put everything on the table for Simmons other than Fox and Haliburton.


There is nothing else to put on the table

Barnes is a solid player, a bit above average value for his contract
Buddy is negative at this juncture
Marvin will probably net 1-2 2nd round picks
I’m high on Wright, he’s another reason I can see the trade for positional variability between Fox/Simmons, but his trade value might not be exceptional
Davis and Holmes are FAs

If the Kings are seriously in these talks, you know who is being discussed (although it’s not conclusive they are in the talks. Maybe they offered the standard Buddy/Bagley/9 combo, which is neutral value, and the Sixers are playing up the interest)
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#33 » by codydaze » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:08 pm

Anyone entertaining a Fox for Simmons swap should let us know who the primary scoring option on our team would be. Simmons is a bad fit with Fox and he's also a bad fit here swapping Fox for him. Let's not speak this into existence please.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#34 » by kb02 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:25 pm

codydaze wrote:Anyone entertaining a Fox for Simmons swap should let us know who the primary scoring option on our team would be. Simmons is a bad fit with Fox and he's also a bad fit here swapping Fox for him. Let's not speak this into existence please.


Draft Bouknight. Give him a year to mature into that role. Hali takes a step forward as well.

The Kings lose offense, but pick up their defense 10x with Simmons. The team can legitimately switch 1 to 5.

Simmons + Hali > Fox + Hali. You can fit pretty much any combo of players around the first pairing. The second pairing, you need athletes to run with Fox. I like Fox and he's improved each year, but the one thing that you rarely hear about him is that he makes others better. Does he? Of course, but are there levels to go? There are. That's his biggest next step. I think it'll take him three years to get there--needs to shake off the speed at all cost tendency of his, bring his teammates into the game, and devote some of that offensive energy to defense.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#35 » by City of Trees » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:28 pm

sackings916 wrote:Put everything on the table for Simmons other than Fox and Haliburton.
This is where I'm at
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#36 » by codydaze » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:42 pm

kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:Anyone entertaining a Fox for Simmons swap should let us know who the primary scoring option on our team would be. Simmons is a bad fit with Fox and he's also a bad fit here swapping Fox for him. Let's not speak this into existence please.


Draft Bouknight. Give him a year to mature into that role. Hali takes a step forward as well.

The Kings lose offense, but pick up their defense 10x with Simmons. The team can legitimately switch 1 to 5.

Simmons + Hali > Fox + Hali. You can fit pretty much any combo of players around the first pairing. The second pairing, you need athletes to run with Fox. I like Fox and he's improved each year, but the one thing that you rarely hear about him is that he makes others better. Does he? Of course, but are there levels to go? There are. That's his biggest next step. I think it'll take him three years to get there--needs to shake off the speed at all cost tendency of his, bring his teammates into the game, and devote some of that offensive energy to defense.


Give Bouknight a year to mature into a #1 scoring option role? I think we have different evaluations of him if that's the expectation.

I also disagree with your last point. With Simmons, you absolutely need shooters around him and you would also need a serious scoring option to go along with Simmons+Hali. I love Haliburton but he's not even a #2 scoring option.

With Fox and Hali, we just need some better defensive pieces. I think it's well understood how bad Buddy is on defense and Holmes is a super active player but he's not a rim protector, and in my opinion should be a first big off the bench (that's a separate discussion though). Either way, Simmons requires a much more specific team built around him than Fox does.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#37 » by kb02 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:00 pm

codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:Anyone entertaining a Fox for Simmons swap should let us know who the primary scoring option on our team would be. Simmons is a bad fit with Fox and he's also a bad fit here swapping Fox for him. Let's not speak this into existence please.


Draft Bouknight. Give him a year to mature into that role. Hali takes a step forward as well.

The Kings lose offense, but pick up their defense 10x with Simmons. The team can legitimately switch 1 to 5.

Simmons + Hali > Fox + Hali. You can fit pretty much any combo of players around the first pairing. The second pairing, you need athletes to run with Fox. I like Fox and he's improved each year, but the one thing that you rarely hear about him is that he makes others better. Does he? Of course, but are there levels to go? There are. That's his biggest next step. I think it'll take him three years to get there--needs to shake off the speed at all cost tendency of his, bring his teammates into the game, and devote some of that offensive energy to defense.


Give Bouknight a year to mature into a #1 scoring option role? I think we have different evaluations of him if that's the expectation.

I also disagree with your last point. With Simmons, you absolutely need shooters around him and you would also need a serious scoring option to go along with Simmons+Hali. I love Haliburton but he's not even a #2 scoring option.

With Fox and Hali, we just need some better defensive pieces. I think it's well understood how bad Buddy is on defense and Holmes is a super active player but he's not a rim protector, and in my opinion should be a first big off the bench (that's a separate discussion though). Either way, Simmons requires a much more specific team built around him than Fox does.



I'm not as high on Fox as you are. He needs to play less like Lillard. He doesn't have Lillard's range nor his elite offense. Fox needs to slow his game down, watch a ton of CP3 film, devote energy to playing defense, and getting others involved. He'll get there, but think it'll be 3 to 5 years from now when he's less athletic. Right now, his tendency is to boat race every team he plays against, which leads to skewed, horrible defensive team numbers, and ends up with the Kings usually trailing by a few possessions, because other teams are simply more efficient. Worse Fox, right now, can only play with bigs, who can run with him. Skilled bigs get wasted, because Fox is boat racing. Slow bigs won't be able to keep up.

With Simmons, he plays the 4. Can swing to the 3 and 5 depending on need. So its easier to build quality pieces around him. Likewise with Haliburton. With those two, the Kings can go small or big. The Kings could draft Davion Mitchell and move Hali to the two spot. Or Bouknight and run Hali at the one. Or they can let Holmes walk, play Simmons as a 4/5, and draft Wagner. Or they can stick him at the 4 and draft Sengun. There's just significantly more flexibility with Hali and Simmons as your anchor players.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#38 » by codydaze » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:06 pm

kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:
Draft Bouknight. Give him a year to mature into that role. Hali takes a step forward as well.

The Kings lose offense, but pick up their defense 10x with Simmons. The team can legitimately switch 1 to 5.

Simmons + Hali > Fox + Hali. You can fit pretty much any combo of players around the first pairing. The second pairing, you need athletes to run with Fox. I like Fox and he's improved each year, but the one thing that you rarely hear about him is that he makes others better. Does he? Of course, but are there levels to go? There are. That's his biggest next step. I think it'll take him three years to get there--needs to shake off the speed at all cost tendency of his, bring his teammates into the game, and devote some of that offensive energy to defense.


Give Bouknight a year to mature into a #1 scoring option role? I think we have different evaluations of him if that's the expectation.

I also disagree with your last point. With Simmons, you absolutely need shooters around him and you would also need a serious scoring option to go along with Simmons+Hali. I love Haliburton but he's not even a #2 scoring option.

With Fox and Hali, we just need some better defensive pieces. I think it's well understood how bad Buddy is on defense and Holmes is a super active player but he's not a rim protector, and in my opinion should be a first big off the bench (that's a separate discussion though). Either way, Simmons requires a much more specific team built around him than Fox does.



I'm not as high on Fox as you are. He needs to play less like Lillard. He doesn't have Lillard's range nor his elite offense. Fox needs to slow his game down, watch a ton of CP3 film, devote energy to playing defense, and getting others involved. He'll get there, but think it'll be 3 to 5 years from now when he's less athletic. Right now, his tendency is to boat race every team he plays against, which leads to skewed, horrible defensive team numbers, and ends up with the Kings usually trailing by a few possessions, because other teams are simply more efficient. Worse Fox, right now, can only play with bigs, who can run with him. Skilled bigs get wasted, because Fox is boat racing. Slow bigs won't be able to keep up.

With Simmons, he plays the 4. Can swing to the 3 and 5 depending on need. So its easier to build quality pieces around him. Likewise with Haliburton. With those two, the Kings can go small or big. The Kings could draft Davion Mitchell and move Hali to the two spot. Or Bouknight and run Hali at the one. Or they can let Holmes walk, play Simmons as a 4/5, and draft Wagner. Or they can stick him at the 4 and draft Sengun. There's just significantly more flexibility with Hali and Simmons as your anchor players.


Which skill bigs have been wasted with Fox? There's no evidence at all to say Fox can't play with a skilled big because he has literally never played with one. I think it's lazy to say that Fox can only play with a super high tempo too. That's where he excels, sure, but he has been far and away improved in the half court as well from where he was his rookie season.

You can draft any of those guys you mentioned with Fox as well...
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#39 » by kb02 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:22 pm

codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Give Bouknight a year to mature into a #1 scoring option role? I think we have different evaluations of him if that's the expectation.

I also disagree with your last point. With Simmons, you absolutely need shooters around him and you would also need a serious scoring option to go along with Simmons+Hali. I love Haliburton but he's not even a #2 scoring option.

With Fox and Hali, we just need some better defensive pieces. I think it's well understood how bad Buddy is on defense and Holmes is a super active player but he's not a rim protector, and in my opinion should be a first big off the bench (that's a separate discussion though). Either way, Simmons requires a much more specific team built around him than Fox does.



I'm not as high on Fox as you are. He needs to play less like Lillard. He doesn't have Lillard's range nor his elite offense. Fox needs to slow his game down, watch a ton of CP3 film, devote energy to playing defense, and getting others involved. He'll get there, but think it'll be 3 to 5 years from now when he's less athletic. Right now, his tendency is to boat race every team he plays against, which leads to skewed, horrible defensive team numbers, and ends up with the Kings usually trailing by a few possessions, because other teams are simply more efficient. Worse Fox, right now, can only play with bigs, who can run with him. Skilled bigs get wasted, because Fox is boat racing. Slow bigs won't be able to keep up.

With Simmons, he plays the 4. Can swing to the 3 and 5 depending on need. So its easier to build quality pieces around him. Likewise with Haliburton. With those two, the Kings can go small or big. The Kings could draft Davion Mitchell and move Hali to the two spot. Or Bouknight and run Hali at the one. Or they can let Holmes walk, play Simmons as a 4/5, and draft Wagner. Or they can stick him at the 4 and draft Sengun. There's just significantly more flexibility with Hali and Simmons as your anchor players.


Which skill bigs have been wasted with Fox? There's no evidence at all to say Fox can't play with a skilled big because he has literally never played with one. I think it's lazy to say that Fox can only play with a super high tempo too. That's where he excels, sure, but he has been far and away improved in the half court as well from where he was his rookie season.

You can draft any of those guys you mentioned with Fox as well...


Giles. Dedmond (stretch 5). Instead, pretty much any consistent big that has played with Fox is of the WCS, Holmes type. Rim runners, bigs that can run with him.
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Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#40 » by codydaze » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:33 pm

kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:

I'm not as high on Fox as you are. He needs to play less like Lillard. He doesn't have Lillard's range nor his elite offense. Fox needs to slow his game down, watch a ton of CP3 film, devote energy to playing defense, and getting others involved. He'll get there, but think it'll be 3 to 5 years from now when he's less athletic. Right now, his tendency is to boat race every team he plays against, which leads to skewed, horrible defensive team numbers, and ends up with the Kings usually trailing by a few possessions, because other teams are simply more efficient. Worse Fox, right now, can only play with bigs, who can run with him. Skilled bigs get wasted, because Fox is boat racing. Slow bigs won't be able to keep up.

With Simmons, he plays the 4. Can swing to the 3 and 5 depending on need. So its easier to build quality pieces around him. Likewise with Haliburton. With those two, the Kings can go small or big. The Kings could draft Davion Mitchell and move Hali to the two spot. Or Bouknight and run Hali at the one. Or they can let Holmes walk, play Simmons as a 4/5, and draft Wagner. Or they can stick him at the 4 and draft Sengun. There's just significantly more flexibility with Hali and Simmons as your anchor players.


Which skill bigs have been wasted with Fox? There's no evidence at all to say Fox can't play with a skilled big because he has literally never played with one. I think it's lazy to say that Fox can only play with a super high tempo too. That's where he excels, sure, but he has been far and away improved in the half court as well from where he was his rookie season.

You can draft any of those guys you mentioned with Fox as well...


Giles. Dedmond (stretch 5). Instead, pretty much any consistent big that has played with Fox is of the WCS, Holmes type. Rim runners, bigs that can run with him.


Giles numbers are worse with Portland than they were with Sacramento (raw counting numbers and per minute numbers btw) and him not producing had nothing to do with Fox.

Dedmon absolutely fell off a cliff and has been pretty much out of the league since Sacramento. Blaming him falling off a cliff on Fox makes no sense either because Dedmon played his best basketball with the Hawks who played at one of the highest paces in the league with Trae Young.

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