ImageImageImageImageImage

Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton?

Moderators: codydaze, KF10, City of Trees

kb02
Rookie
Posts: 1,112
And1: 541
Joined: Jun 06, 2017
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#41 » by kb02 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:00 am

codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Which skill bigs have been wasted with Fox? There's no evidence at all to say Fox can't play with a skilled big because he has literally never played with one. I think it's lazy to say that Fox can only play with a super high tempo too. That's where he excels, sure, but he has been far and away improved in the half court as well from where he was his rookie season.

You can draft any of those guys you mentioned with Fox as well...


Giles. Dedmond (stretch 5). Instead, pretty much any consistent big that has played with Fox is of the WCS, Holmes type. Rim runners, bigs that can run with him.


Giles numbers are worse with Portland than they were with Sacramento (raw counting numbers and per minute numbers btw) and him not producing had nothing to do with Fox.

Dedmon absolutely fell off a cliff and has been pretty much out of the league since Sacramento. Blaming him falling off a cliff on Fox makes no sense either because Dedmon played his best basketball with the Hawks who played at one of the highest paces in the league with Trae Young.


How Giles and Dedmon have done after the Kings is irrelevant. If they fit with Fox, they’d still be in Sac. At this stage in his career, the Bigs that play well with Fox are the rim running, WCS, Holmes, and Bags type. Can Fox change? Sure. Does he want to? I don’t see it until he’s operating more with his mind and less with his speed.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 12,342
And1: 7,714
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#42 » by RipPizzaGuy » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:06 pm

kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
kb02 wrote:
Giles. Dedmond (stretch 5). Instead, pretty much any consistent big that has played with Fox is of the WCS, Holmes type. Rim runners, bigs that can run with him.


Giles numbers are worse with Portland than they were with Sacramento (raw counting numbers and per minute numbers btw) and him not producing had nothing to do with Fox.

Dedmon absolutely fell off a cliff and has been pretty much out of the league since Sacramento. Blaming him falling off a cliff on Fox makes no sense either because Dedmon played his best basketball with the Hawks who played at one of the highest paces in the league with Trae Young.


How Giles and Dedmon have done after the Kings is irrelevant. If they fit with Fox, they’d still be in Sac. At this stage in his career, the Bigs that play well with Fox are the rim running, WCS, Holmes, and Bags type. Can Fox change? Sure. Does he want to? I don’t see it until he’s operating more with his mind and less with his speed.


Huh... I'm so lost here. Giles and Dedmon are absolute trash. How on earth are you blaming that on Fox? It's absolutely relevant how they've played after. They don't fit with anyone, because they aren't good enough to stay on the court.

Cody is 100% correct. Fox has never played with a Skill big. The only one you could even make an argument for is Bagley, and he can't stay healthy to know what that pairing would have looked like.
kb02
Rookie
Posts: 1,112
And1: 541
Joined: Jun 06, 2017
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#43 » by kb02 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:37 pm

RipPizzaGuy wrote:
kb02 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Giles numbers are worse with Portland than they were with Sacramento (raw counting numbers and per minute numbers btw) and him not producing had nothing to do with Fox.

Dedmon absolutely fell off a cliff and has been pretty much out of the league since Sacramento. Blaming him falling off a cliff on Fox makes no sense either because Dedmon played his best basketball with the Hawks who played at one of the highest paces in the league with Trae Young.


How Giles and Dedmon have done after the Kings is irrelevant. If they fit with Fox, they’d still be in Sac. At this stage in his career, the Bigs that play well with Fox are the rim running, WCS, Holmes, and Bags type. Can Fox change? Sure. Does he want to? I don’t see it until he’s operating more with his mind and less with his speed.


Huh... I'm so lost here. Giles and Dedmon are absolute trash. How on earth are you blaming that on Fox? It's absolutely relevant how they've played after. They don't fit with anyone, because they aren't good enough to stay on the court.

Cody is 100% correct. Fox has never played with a Skill big. The only one you could even make an argument for is Bagley, and he can't stay healthy to know what that pairing would have looked like.


Bagley is many things, but he is not a skilled big. The big with the most skill in Fox's era is Giles. Giles produced when he was on the court, but really needed the offense to go through him to be effective. That plus his lost athleticsm plus the amount of time he needed to recover made him expendable. That said, in the games that he played, very few Kings took advantage of his skill set, cutting off Giles, moving the ball around, spacing...an older, more mature Fox would be able to play off of someone like Giles, cutting for dunks, flaring out for set shots, pick and rolling (this he does, but not at Hali's level). There are games where Hali will make a pass across court and point to a spot where two other passes later, the ball arrives for an open shot for a teammate. That's CP3 level IQ. Fox doesn't exhibit that yet. I think he can get there, but it'll be three or so years. In his current form, he's all about speed and running.
RipPizzaGuy
RealGM
Posts: 12,342
And1: 7,714
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
     

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#44 » by RipPizzaGuy » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm

kb02 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:
kb02 wrote:
How Giles and Dedmon have done after the Kings is irrelevant. If they fit with Fox, they’d still be in Sac. At this stage in his career, the Bigs that play well with Fox are the rim running, WCS, Holmes, and Bags type. Can Fox change? Sure. Does he want to? I don’t see it until he’s operating more with his mind and less with his speed.


Huh... I'm so lost here. Giles and Dedmon are absolute trash. How on earth are you blaming that on Fox? It's absolutely relevant how they've played after. They don't fit with anyone, because they aren't good enough to stay on the court.

Cody is 100% correct. Fox has never played with a Skill big. The only one you could even make an argument for is Bagley, and he can't stay healthy to know what that pairing would have looked like.


Bagley is many things, but he is not a skilled big. The big with the most skill in Fox's era is Giles. Giles produced when he was on the court, but really needed the offense to go through him to be effective. That plus his lost athleticsm plus the amount of time he needed to recover made him expendable. That said, in the games that he played, very few Kings took advantage of his skill set, cutting off Giles, moving the ball around, spacing...an older, more mature Fox would be able to play off of someone like Giles, cutting for dunks, flaring out for set shots, pick and rolling (this he does, but not at Hali's level). There are games where Hali will make a pass across court and point to a spot where two other passes later, the ball arrives for an open shot for a teammate. That's CP3 level IQ. Fox doesn't exhibit that yet. I think he can get there, but it'll be three or so years. In his current form, he's all about speed and running.


But Harry Giles just wasn't very good. If teams thought they could succeed off that play style, they would do it. I know what you are saying, Giles is like a homeless man/trash can version of what Jokic is doing in the post.

But did you watch the playoffs? Simmons plays off Embid, one of the most skilled big men in the league. He played worse than Seth Curry. Idk what makes you think that Simmons would have played great and had Giles/Dedmon succeeding.

Its great that Hali has that IQ. He and Fox are going to make a great pairing. But until we put the talent around Fox, its really hard to make accurate judgements on what he can and can't do.
kb02
Rookie
Posts: 1,112
And1: 541
Joined: Jun 06, 2017
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#45 » by kb02 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:17 pm

RipPizzaGuy wrote:
kb02 wrote:
RipPizzaGuy wrote:
Huh... I'm so lost here. Giles and Dedmon are absolute trash. How on earth are you blaming that on Fox? It's absolutely relevant how they've played after. They don't fit with anyone, because they aren't good enough to stay on the court.

Cody is 100% correct. Fox has never played with a Skill big. The only one you could even make an argument for is Bagley, and he can't stay healthy to know what that pairing would have looked like.


Bagley is many things, but he is not a skilled big. The big with the most skill in Fox's era is Giles. Giles produced when he was on the court, but really needed the offense to go through him to be effective. That plus his lost athleticsm plus the amount of time he needed to recover made him expendable. That said, in the games that he played, very few Kings took advantage of his skill set, cutting off Giles, moving the ball around, spacing...an older, more mature Fox would be able to play off of someone like Giles, cutting for dunks, flaring out for set shots, pick and rolling (this he does, but not at Hali's level). There are games where Hali will make a pass across court and point to a spot where two other passes later, the ball arrives for an open shot for a teammate. That's CP3 level IQ. Fox doesn't exhibit that yet. I think he can get there, but it'll be three or so years. In his current form, he's all about speed and running.


But Harry Giles just wasn't very good. If teams thought they could succeed off that play style, they would do it. I know what you are saying, Giles is like a homeless man/trash can version of what Jokic is doing in the post.

But did you watch the playoffs? Simmons plays off Embid, one of the most skilled big men in the league. He played worse than Seth Curry. Idk what makes you think that Simmons would have played great and had Giles/Dedmon succeeding.

Its great that Hali has that IQ. He and Fox are going to make a great pairing. But until we put the talent around Fox, its really hard to make accurate judgements on what he can and can't do.


The difference is Simmons can do the things that Fox can do at the 4/5 spot. He can become that skilled big, playing off of Hali and whoever else is on the floor.
rpa
RealGM
Posts: 13,967
And1: 6,534
Joined: Nov 24, 2006

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#46 » by rpa » Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:19 am

kb02 wrote:The difference is Simmons can do the things that Fox can do at the 4/5 spot.


He really can't, though. Fox is a goto scorer that can effortlessly create his own shot and score relatively efficiently. Simmons can't do that... at all. Consider that last year Simmons eclipsed Fox's scoring average on the year (25) exactly TWICE.

It's incredibly hard to build a team around a distributor who isn't also an elite scorer/shooter to keep defenses honest. Last one that I can think of was Kidd, but, let's be honest here, Simmons isn't the distributor that Kidd ever was.


I agree with the premise of this thread, though. A fast break-centric, small-ball team with Simmons at the 5 and Fox/Haliburton at the 1/2 could be really good--especially if you're able to put 2 shooters at the 3/4.
User avatar
Lovetron Joe
Pro Prospect
Posts: 935
And1: 326
Joined: Dec 26, 2014
       

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#47 » by Lovetron Joe » Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:04 am

Appear to be Buddy, Haliburton, Bagley, 9th pick for Ben, 28th. Money works. Sixers route Hield to Toronto for Lowry (S&T). Money works all around.

Kings keep Fox.
User avatar
codydaze
Forum Mod - Kings
Forum Mod - Kings
Posts: 4,370
And1: 3,151
Joined: Jul 06, 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
     

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#48 » by codydaze » Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:22 am

Lovetron Joe wrote:Appear to be Buddy, Haliburton, Bagley, 9th pick for Ben, 28th. Money works. Sixers route Hield to Toronto for Lowry (S&T). Money works all around.

Kings keep Fox.


Yeah there's no chance Haliburton is part of that deal. If that's what Philly demands then the deal falls through. I'm not a fan of putting Simmons next to Fox and Hali anyway so I'd be fine with it.
nolang1
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,934
And1: 1,739
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#49 » by nolang1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 am

codydaze wrote:
Lovetron Joe wrote:Appear to be Buddy, Haliburton, Bagley, 9th pick for Ben, 28th. Money works. Sixers route Hield to Toronto for Lowry (S&T). Money works all around.

Kings keep Fox.


Yeah there's no chance Haliburton is part of that deal. If that's what Philly demands then the deal falls through. I'm not a fan of putting Simmons next to Fox and Hali anyway so I'd be fine with it.


Wow that deal is ugly. Even before getting into the Sacramento part, I have no idea why Toronto would prefer Buddy (who is widely considered to be a slight negative trade value-wise) to just signing Lowry to a short-term deal and running it back with the idea that they'll be better with the #4 pick plus having actual home games; if they're trading Lowry, they're probably trading Siakam too and tearing it down, so some token 1st-round pick from the Lakers or Sixers or whoever would be better than Buddy for them.

Then the Kings are left sacrificing the long-term value in such a deal for a short-term improvement that's likely to leave them still short of the playoffs even in the scenario where Ben Simmons goes from a player who wanted nothing to do with Philadelphia unless they promised he could play point guard to happily playing off Fox as the 4. Come on, the Warriors missed the playoffs last year and have 2 lottery picks plus last year's #2 pick to use to upgrade their roster for the short term, and you think the Kings are going to leapfrog them and some other West playoff team by trading their lotto pick and 3 of their maybe 7 rotation-caliber caliber players for a guy who wouldn't even make an all-star team in the West?
ExplosionsInDaSky
RealGM
Posts: 16,402
And1: 1,817
Joined: Mar 17, 2004

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#50 » by ExplosionsInDaSky » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 am

Sixer fan coming in peace....I honestly doubt that Morey would ask for all that for Simmons. That seems like a dramatic overpay. My question for Kings fan is pretty much this....1. Is Fox untouchable? 2. Is Haliburton untouchable? What about Simmons/FRDP straight up for either one? I mean, Barnes or a player like Hield would have to be included and Philly may send back Thybulle or Shake Milton, but would that work? Or as I asked....Are Fox and Haliburton considered untouchable? To me...They would seem untouchable....Like Elliott Ness.
OscarH
Freshman
Posts: 88
And1: 22
Joined: Jul 09, 2014
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#51 » by OscarH » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:06 am

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Sixer fan coming in peace....I honestly doubt that Morey would ask for all that for Simmons. That seems like a dramatic overpay. My question for Kings fan is pretty much this....1. Is Fox untouchable? 2. Is Haliburton untouchable? What about Simmons/FRDP straight up for either one? I mean, Barnes or a player like Hield would have to be included and Philly may send back Thybulle or Shake Milton, but would that work? Or as I asked....Are Fox and Haliburton considered untouchable? To me...They would seem untouchable....Like Elliott Ness.


I would say Fox is untouchable and Hali pretty close too. Think if Hali package could say get you Beal he'd be available.

Young talent that wants to be in sacramento is pretty much priceless to the Kings. Unless getting a true star and know they wanna stay you're not risking it.
rpa
RealGM
Posts: 13,967
And1: 6,534
Joined: Nov 24, 2006

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#52 » by rpa » Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:07 am

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Sixer fan coming in peace....I honestly doubt that Morey would ask for all that for Simmons. That seems like a dramatic overpay. My question for Kings fan is pretty much this....1. Is Fox untouchable? 2. Is Haliburton untouchable? What about Simmons/FRDP straight up for either one? I mean, Barnes or a player like Hield would have to be included and Philly may send back Thybulle or Shake Milton, but would that work? Or as I asked....Are Fox and Haliburton considered untouchable? To me...They would seem untouchable....Like Elliott Ness.


They're not untouchable, but neither make sense for Simmons.

Fox for Simmons is a lateral move talent wise, but a downgrade both in terms of fit (leaves the Kings with no primary scorer) and intangibles (Fox wants to be here, I doubt Simmons would).

Haliburton for Simmons is obviously an upgrade talent wise, but Haliburton was the Kings' best 3pt shooter last year and the team would need to include either Barnes or Hield (3rd/4th best by percentage) to match salaries. Thus a Haliburton for Simmons trade leaves the Kings lacking in the one area both Fox and Simmons need to succeed: shooting.

I'm sure the Kings would obviously love to get Simmons for Hield, #9, Bagley and future picks, but that just won't cut it.
KF10
Forum Mod - Kings
Forum Mod - Kings
Posts: 24,887
And1: 5,196
Joined: Jul 28, 2006
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#53 » by KF10 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:58 pm

Nobody is untouchable on a bad lotto team for 15 straight years.
PhillyNj
Rookie
Posts: 1,006
And1: 261
Joined: Jul 21, 2010

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#54 » by PhillyNj » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm

KF10 wrote:Nobody is untouchable on a bad lotto team for 15 straight years.

Absolutely true.
kb02
Rookie
Posts: 1,112
And1: 541
Joined: Jun 06, 2017
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#55 » by kb02 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:42 pm

rpa wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Sixer fan coming in peace....I honestly doubt that Morey would ask for all that for Simmons. That seems like a dramatic overpay. My question for Kings fan is pretty much this....1. Is Fox untouchable? 2. Is Haliburton untouchable? What about Simmons/FRDP straight up for either one? I mean, Barnes or a player like Hield would have to be included and Philly may send back Thybulle or Shake Milton, but would that work? Or as I asked....Are Fox and Haliburton considered untouchable? To me...They would seem untouchable....Like Elliott Ness.


They're not untouchable, but neither make sense for Simmons.

Fox for Simmons is a lateral move talent wise, but a downgrade both in terms of fit (leaves the Kings with no primary scorer) and intangibles (Fox wants to be here, I doubt Simmons would).

Haliburton for Simmons is obviously an upgrade talent wise, but Haliburton was the Kings' best 3pt shooter last year and the team would need to include either Barnes or Hield (3rd/4th best by percentage) to match salaries. Thus a Haliburton for Simmons trade leaves the Kings lacking in the one area both Fox and Simmons need to succeed: shooting.

I'm sure the Kings would obviously love to get Simmons for Hield, #9, Bagley and future picks, but that just won't cut it.


Simmons is more talented than Fox and has a higher upside. Harder to find Simmons athletic profile than Fox’s. Simmons warts on the biggest stage is depressing his value.

Fox’s scoring is a product of his pace, but he’s inefficient offensively and plays zero defense at the pace that he sets. And for all of his physical gifts, he doesn’t make others better at a rate that you’d expect. It is part average passing skills and part mindset.

Every team that played the Kings last year, they had their best offensive games. At a minimum, 20% (1/5 players on the floor) of that falls on Fox though i say much more. The game that he sets, it hasnt worked and it won’t until he slows his game down. Itll happen in three years, but id trade him for Simmons and build the team around Hali ansd Simmons. I think Hali will be the better play in two years. He’s the only untouchable on the Kings.
SmellingColors
Pro Prospect
Posts: 760
And1: 139
Joined: Dec 14, 2010

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#56 » by SmellingColors » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:35 pm

kb02 wrote:
rpa wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Sixer fan coming in peace....I honestly doubt that Morey would ask for all that for Simmons. That seems like a dramatic overpay. My question for Kings fan is pretty much this....1. Is Fox untouchable? 2. Is Haliburton untouchable? What about Simmons/FRDP straight up for either one? I mean, Barnes or a player like Hield would have to be included and Philly may send back Thybulle or Shake Milton, but would that work? Or as I asked....Are Fox and Haliburton considered untouchable? To me...They would seem untouchable....Like Elliott Ness.


They're not untouchable, but neither make sense for Simmons.

Fox for Simmons is a lateral move talent wise, but a downgrade both in terms of fit (leaves the Kings with no primary scorer) and intangibles (Fox wants to be here, I doubt Simmons would).

Haliburton for Simmons is obviously an upgrade talent wise, but Haliburton was the Kings' best 3pt shooter last year and the team would need to include either Barnes or Hield (3rd/4th best by percentage) to match salaries. Thus a Haliburton for Simmons trade leaves the Kings lacking in the one area both Fox and Simmons need to succeed: shooting.

I'm sure the Kings would obviously love to get Simmons for Hield, #9, Bagley and future picks, but that just won't cut it.


Simmons is more talented than Fox and has a higher upside. Harder to find Simmons athletic profile than Fox’s. Simmons warts on the biggest stage is depressing his value.

Fox’s scoring is a product of his pace, but he’s inefficient offensively and plays zero defense at the pace that he sets. And for all of his physical gifts, he doesn’t make others better at a rate that you’d expect. It is part average passing skills and part mindset.

Every team that played the Kings last year, they had their best offensive games. At a minimum, 20% (1/5 players on the floor) of that falls on Fox though i say much more. The game that he sets, it hasnt worked and it won’t until he slows his game down. Itll happen in three years, but id trade him for Simmons and build the team around Hali ansd Simmons. I think Hali will be the better play in two years. He’s the only untouchable on the Kings.


It's honestly feels like you didn't watch Fox much last year. Yeah he's fast, but he's become incredibly dynamic with how he moves. He's not just sprinting the whole game. He's not just a fast break scorer. He's a legit weapon in the half court, scores nearly at will at the rim and has a really good floater/mid range game. He was below average from 3 and shot badly from the line, but if he can start hitting the 3 at a more efficient clip and improve his FT%, he will be a legit 3-level scorer. Something that I think is definitely possible given his improvement every year.

Hali is going to be a great NBA player, but I see Fox/Hali as more complimentary pieces than needing one or the other. Fox is a go-to scorer, Hali is more of a glue guy. You need both.

As for defense, he needs to lock in more on that end, he takes a lot of possessions off. But when he's locked in he can be really pesky. He's shown flashes. He's not Jrue Holiday, but he's not DLo either. The Kings were the worst defense in the NBA last year. Everyone deserves some blame for that, Fox included, but to say that it can't work with Fox for that reason is disingenuous imo.
kb02
Rookie
Posts: 1,112
And1: 541
Joined: Jun 06, 2017
 

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#57 » by kb02 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:21 am

SmellingColors wrote:
kb02 wrote:
rpa wrote:
They're not untouchable, but neither make sense for Simmons.

Fox for Simmons is a lateral move talent wise, but a downgrade both in terms of fit (leaves the Kings with no primary scorer) and intangibles (Fox wants to be here, I doubt Simmons would).

Haliburton for Simmons is obviously an upgrade talent wise, but Haliburton was the Kings' best 3pt shooter last year and the team would need to include either Barnes or Hield (3rd/4th best by percentage) to match salaries. Thus a Haliburton for Simmons trade leaves the Kings lacking in the one area both Fox and Simmons need to succeed: shooting.

I'm sure the Kings would obviously love to get Simmons for Hield, #9, Bagley and future picks, but that just won't cut it.


Simmons is more talented than Fox and has a higher upside. Harder to find Simmons athletic profile than Fox’s. Simmons warts on the biggest stage is depressing his value.

Fox’s scoring is a product of his pace, but he’s inefficient offensively and plays zero defense at the pace that he sets. And for all of his physical gifts, he doesn’t make others better at a rate that you’d expect. It is part average passing skills and part mindset.

Every team that played the Kings last year, they had their best offensive games. At a minimum, 20% (1/5 players on the floor) of that falls on Fox though i say much more. The game that he sets, it hasnt worked and it won’t until he slows his game down. Itll happen in three years, but id trade him for Simmons and build the team around Hali ansd Simmons. I think Hali will be the better play in two years. He’s the only untouchable on the Kings.


It's honestly feels like you didn't watch Fox much last year. Yeah he's fast, but he's become incredibly dynamic with how he moves. He's not just sprinting the whole game. He's not just a fast break scorer. He's a legit weapon in the half court, scores nearly at will at the rim and has a really good floater/mid range game. He was below average from 3 and shot badly from the line, but if he can start hitting the 3 at a more efficient clip and improve his FT%, he will be a legit 3-level scorer. Something that I think is definitely possible given his improvement every year.

Hali is going to be a great NBA player, but I see Fox/Hali as more complimentary pieces than needing one or the other. Fox is a go-to scorer, Hali is more of a glue guy. You need both.

As for defense, he needs to lock in more on that end, he takes a lot of possessions off. But when he's locked in he can be really pesky. He's shown flashes. He's not Jrue Holiday, but he's not DLo either. The Kings were the worst defense in the NBA last year. Everyone deserves some blame for that, Fox included, but to say that it can't work with Fox for that reason is disingenuous imo.


I tortured myself last year watching probably 50 Kings games, so your feeling is off. Notice how everything you said about Fox was his scoring ability and notice how I didn’t mention that at all in my post? We’re watching different things. And, yea, no player sprints all game. But the way he plays, the pace, he needs specific types if dudes to play with him. He needs to slow his game down, become more efficient offensively and play defense the way he’s capable of.

I would trade him for Simmons. Now, if we can get Simmons without trading Fox or Hali, that would be ideal. I would even give up 3 firsts for Simmons since two of those firsts (plus #9) would be picks in the 20s.
SmellingColors
Pro Prospect
Posts: 760
And1: 139
Joined: Dec 14, 2010

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#58 » by SmellingColors » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:34 am

kb02 wrote:
SmellingColors wrote:
kb02 wrote:
Simmons is more talented than Fox and has a higher upside. Harder to find Simmons athletic profile than Fox’s. Simmons warts on the biggest stage is depressing his value.

Fox’s scoring is a product of his pace, but he’s inefficient offensively and plays zero defense at the pace that he sets. And for all of his physical gifts, he doesn’t make others better at a rate that you’d expect. It is part average passing skills and part mindset.

Every team that played the Kings last year, they had their best offensive games. At a minimum, 20% (1/5 players on the floor) of that falls on Fox though i say much more. The game that he sets, it hasnt worked and it won’t until he slows his game down. Itll happen in three years, but id trade him for Simmons and build the team around Hali ansd Simmons. I think Hali will be the better play in two years. He’s the only untouchable on the Kings.


It's honestly feels like you didn't watch Fox much last year. Yeah he's fast, but he's become incredibly dynamic with how he moves. He's not just sprinting the whole game. He's not just a fast break scorer. He's a legit weapon in the half court, scores nearly at will at the rim and has a really good floater/mid range game. He was below average from 3 and shot badly from the line, but if he can start hitting the 3 at a more efficient clip and improve his FT%, he will be a legit 3-level scorer. Something that I think is definitely possible given his improvement every year.

Hali is going to be a great NBA player, but I see Fox/Hali as more complimentary pieces than needing one or the other. Fox is a go-to scorer, Hali is more of a glue guy. You need both.

As for defense, he needs to lock in more on that end, he takes a lot of possessions off. But when he's locked in he can be really pesky. He's shown flashes. He's not Jrue Holiday, but he's not DLo either. The Kings were the worst defense in the NBA last year. Everyone deserves some blame for that, Fox included, but to say that it can't work with Fox for that reason is disingenuous imo.


I tortured myself last year watching probably 50 Kings games, so your feeling is off. Notice how everything you said about Fox was his scoring ability and notice how I didn’t mention that at all in my post? We’re watching different things. And, yea, no player sprints all game. But the way he plays, the pace, he needs specific types if dudes to play with him. He needs to slow his game down, become more efficient offensively and play defense the way he’s capable of.

I would trade him for Simmons. Now, if we can get Simmons without trading Fox or Hali, that would be ideal. I would even give up 3 firsts for Simmons since two of those firsts (plus #9) would be picks in the 20s.


You said his scoring is a product of pace and that he's inefficient so I talked about his half-court scoring ability...? Not sure how those aren't related.

Fox is definitely among the best transition players, but in the half court he's improved a ton since his rookie year in using change of pace and getting to different go-to moves to get to the rim, to a floater, mid range shot, or to set up others that have nothing to do with playing quickly.

Ironically, Simmons is known for being great in transition, but is nearly anemic in the half-court. And yet Fox averages more points in transition a game, has a lower turnover percentage in transition, and averages more PPP in transition. So really Ben's only benefit for the Kings is his defense, which he is obviously great at, but I don't buy that that's enough.

Obviously Fox needs specific players around him to maximize his abilities (everybody does), but I'd argue the guy that couldn't make it work with an MVP finalist, couldn't stay on the court in a pivotal playoff series due to his weaknesses, hasn't significantly improved in any specific area besides maybe defense since entering the league, may be shooting with the wrong hand, and may have been playing the wrong position this whole time...needs a far more specific set of players around him than Fox.

This team needs talent so I'd gamble on Simmons, but not by giving up Fox.
PhillyNj
Rookie
Posts: 1,006
And1: 261
Joined: Jul 21, 2010

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#59 » by PhillyNj » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:47 pm

codydaze wrote:
Lovetron Joe wrote:Appear to be Buddy, Haliburton, Bagley, 9th pick for Ben, 28th. Money works. Sixers route Hield to Toronto for Lowry (S&T). Money works all around.

Kings keep Fox.


Yeah there's no chance Haliburton is part of that deal. If that's what Philly demands then the deal falls through. I'm not a fan of putting Simmons next to Fox and Hali anyway so I'd be fine with it.

Seriously the kings haven’t made the playoffs in 15 years and a rookie is off the table..
I’d rethink that.
rpa
RealGM
Posts: 13,967
And1: 6,534
Joined: Nov 24, 2006

Re: Ben Simmons as a 4/5 with Fox and Haliburton? 

Post#60 » by rpa » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:24 pm

PhillyNj wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Lovetron Joe wrote:Appear to be Buddy, Haliburton, Bagley, 9th pick for Ben, 28th. Money works. Sixers route Hield to Toronto for Lowry (S&T). Money works all around.

Kings keep Fox.


Yeah there's no chance Haliburton is part of that deal. If that's what Philly demands then the deal falls through. I'm not a fan of putting Simmons next to Fox and Hali anyway so I'd be fine with it.

Seriously the kings haven’t made the playoffs in 15 years and a rookie is off the table..
I’d rethink that.


He's off the table because
a) He's really good and really cheap for 3 more years
b) If you trade him you'd need to include one of Hield/Barnes to salary match. That leaves the Kings with Fox/Simmons and little to no outside shooting. Simmons (and Fox) need outside shooting to be successful. Trading that outside shooting for Simmons puts the Kings in a big hole it's going to be tough to get out of.

Return to Sacramento Kings