Kings to try triangle offense.

[Inc]

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1276001.html

As the long road back to relevance began anew with Monday's media day at the team's practice facility, the new faces and renewed optimism was joined by the admission the offense just might look new and improved as well. Kings coach Reggie Theus is implementing the vaunted triangle offense.

The ambitious plan was first introduced in summer league in July. Theus passed word to his assistants to begin coaching the players on the ins and outs of the system, one made famous by coach Phil Jackson with his Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers teams and is as difficult to master as it can be to defend.

The goal is to eliminate stagnant feel on the floor and rely more on creative freedom and athleticism, and the change in personnel should aid the cause. Although Ron Artest's talents were indisputable, so, too, was the reality that the forward, who was traded to Houston in August, was notorious for breaking set plays and relying too much on isolation play.

[Joe Kleazy]

Get on that wagon boys.

[Wolfay]

Princeton>Triangle.

That's my opinion anyway. Both are complicated systems, so I'd rather all that effort be spent learning the Princeton.

[pillwenney]

Princeton>Triangle.

That's my opinion anyway. Both are complicated systems, so I'd rather all that effort be spent learning the Princeton.

Ehh, it's a tough call. On one hand you can say Triangle-9 rings, Princeton-0 (that I know of), but that's probably not fair because of the star power on those other teams.

Regardless to call this "ambitious" is quite an understatement. There's a reason other teams haven't really tried it that often. It's really effing hard to learn. That's why guys like Luke Walton have a lot more value to the Lakers than they do other teams. The good news is that it's probably easier if it's harped on with players while they're still young (I'm guessing). Also, it relies so heavily on b-ball IQ, and a lot of our younger guys are relatively smart players (although I think there's a good chance this will officially mean the end for Quincy). But to learn it, you either have to be a very smart player (Pau, for instance) or you have to take some time to learn it. I'm not against the decision, but it should be interesting to see how it turns out. I think it relies on the passing of the bigs considerably less than the Princeton (it's still important in the triangle but the offense doesn't entirely rely on it), which I think is important. We've been spoiled enough to think that just anybody can run the Princeton like we saw it a couple of years ago because we've just happened to have 3 of the very best passing bigs of this generation (if you ask me, probably the top 3 outside of Sabonis). Spencer looks like he'll be a very good passer, but even still, it's a tall order to expect him to be Chris or Vlade or maybe even Brad in this regard. And I haven't seen anything from Jason yet to suggest he can get to that level. So maybe the triangle is the better idea. We'll see.

[a-rod]

Get on that wagon boys.

get off your high horse, its the bulls dynasty and the triangle offense, its not the lakers dynasty and the triangle offense

Princeton>Triangle.

That's my opinion anyway. Both are complicated systems, so I'd rather all that effort be spent learning the Princeton.

I totally agree wolfay, contrary to popular belief the triangle offense is not assist friendly offense...

Ehh, it's a tough call. On one hand you can say Triangle-9 rings, Princeton-0 (that I know of), but that's probably not fair because of the star power on those other teams.

You mean, Jordan, kobe , shaq, pippen, i think star power is understatement...

Regardless to call this "ambitious" is quite an understatement. There's a reason other teams haven't really tried it that often. It's really effing hard to learn. That's why guys like Luke Walton have a lot more value to the Lakers than they do other teams. The good news is that it's probably easier if it's harped on with players while they're still young (I'm guessing). Also, it relies so heavily on b-ball IQ, and a lot of our younger guys are relatively smart players (although I think there's a good chance this will officially mean the end for Quincy). But to learn it, you either have to be a very smart player (Pau, for instance) or you have to take some time to learn it. I'm not against the decision, but it should be interesting to see how it turns out. I think it relies on the passing of the bigs considerably less than the Princeton (it's still important in the triangle but the offense doesn't entirely rely on it), which I think is important. We've been spoiled enough to think that just anybody can run the Princeton like we saw it a couple of years ago because we've just happened to have 3 of the very best passing bigs of this generation (if you ask me, probably the top 3 outside of Sabonis). Spencer looks like he'll be a very good passer, but even still, it's a tall order to expect him to be Chris or Vlade or maybe even Brad in this regard. And I haven't seen anything from Jason yet to suggest he can get to that level. So maybe the triangle is the better idea. We'll see.

True The triangle offense takes players/teams at least an entire season to learn. Not only that but you've got to teach the coaching staff the offense.

[cdt3]

The Kings formula for success in the Princeton was
Good passing bigs + Lots of scorers + Solid def in the paint = Lots of wins
The Kings have the personnel for this. Brad is as good a passer a Vlade. He was pretty good when he and Webber were the big guys, and were as good as the triangle only losing to the Lakers who got Robert Horry lucky threes to steal the victory (but the Kings were just as good).
Shelden, Hawes, Thompson, and Miller would be better running the Princton. The Kings have a Princton GM who has brought in Princeton personnel. Athletes are interchangable, yes but it would take a long time for these guys to learn since Brad knows it already. It sounds like it is not gauranteed anyway. I think it is a great idea to have the triangle if you have MJ or Kobe. Is Kevin going to be able to hit last second shots? I think the Princeton works better when you don't have a definite #1 go to guy. We really don't have one with Martin, Salmons, Garcia, Jackson, Douby, Udrich and Greene. But we do have lots of scorers where the Princton ball movement is gets so many open shots. I think we already have something there why go around your strengths. Shelden already ran Duke's system for 4 years, it is his 3rd year in the NBA. I don't know which system they use, but they can be molded. Shelden averaged 21/11/4blocks a game in his senior year. Shelden will not average as many points as CWebb, but CWebb never blocked as many shots as Shelden will.

[SacKingZZZ]

Well it makes sense, Petrie always goes for that motion offense, like I have been saying. Anyway, believe it or not but the "Princeton" and "Triangle" are quite similar and the C-Webb era Kings did run quite a few triangle sets. It's all cutting and reading, same blah, blah, blah stuff.

It all comes down to play calls and style. Basically this is just saying that we are going to play based on ball movement and tempo. In looking at the roster it makes sense to me.

And there are plenty of teams that utilize both sets that don't have good passing bigs. It doesn't have to be the big initiating the offense, we just did that, and maybe can now, because the bigs have that skill. It reverses the offense and makes it very hard for other teams to defend. This team will most likely live off the pick and roll/pop just like almost every other team in the NBA.

[pillwenney]

The Kings formula for success in the Princeton was
Good passing bigs + Lots of scorers + Solid def in the paint = Lots of wins
The Kings have the personnel for this. Brad is as good a passer a Vlade. He was pretty good when he and Webber were the big guys, and were as good as the triangle only losing to the Lakers who got Robert Horry lucky threes to steal the victory (but the Kings were just as good).
Shelden, Hawes, Thompson, and Miller would be better running the Princton. The Kings have a Princton GM who has brought in Princeton personnel. Athletes are interchangable, yes but it would take a long time for these guys to learn since Brad knows it already. It sounds like it is not gauranteed anyway. I think it is a great idea to have the triangle if you have MJ or Kobe. Is Kevin going to be able to hit last second shots? I think the Princeton works better when you don't have a definite #1 go to guy. We really don't have one with Martin, Salmons, Garcia, Jackson, Douby, Udrich and Greene. But we do have lots of scorers where the Princton ball movement is gets so many open shots. I think we already have something there why go around your strengths. Shelden already ran Duke's system for 4 years, it is his 3rd year in the NBA. I don't know which system they use, but they can be molded. Shelden averaged 21/11/4blocks a game in his senior year. Shelden will not average as many points as CWebb, but CWebb never blocked as many shots as Shelden will.

Brad's not really relevant to what the team is going to learn--at least not at his age. And again, you can't underestimate how important passing from the bigs is, and how good those bigs have to be. Spencer may reach that point one day, but to just assume it's going to happen with him and especially with anyone else is pretty far-fetched. Chris and Vlade were both absolutely remarkable passers for bigs. Chris is by far (IMO) the best passing PF ever, and Vlade is definitely among the best centers ever in this regard. The odds of getting two bigs that can pass like that again are very, very low.
And please, let's stop overrating Shelden. Tons of players put up great stats in college and flop in the NBA. Relatively speaking, Shelden is no exception. That doesn't mean that he can't be a decent NBA player (I think he can), but he probably won't be much more than that.

Well it makes sense, Petrie always goes for that motion offense, like I have been saying. Anyway, believe it or not but the "Princeton" and "Triangle" are quite similar and the C-Webb era Kings did run quite a few triangle sets. It's all cutting and reading, same blah, blah, blah stuff.

It all comes down to play calls and style. Basically this is just saying that we are going to play based on ball movement and tempo. In looking at the roster it makes sense to me.

And there are plenty of teams that utilize both sets that don't have good passing bigs. It doesn't have to be the big initiating the offense, we just did that, and maybe can now, because the bigs have that skill. It reverses the offense and makes it very hard for other teams to defend. This team will most likely live off the pick and roll/pop just like almost every other team in the NBA.

Well they're not exactly the same, and it's not like the triangle was at all commonplace with the Kings--at least not the real triangle. Almost every team in the league runs some kind of "motion offense" whether it's a bastardized version of the Princeton or the triangle. I'm no expert on the triangle, but I have read some things on it, and it's not really all that much like the Princeton. Saying they both involve motion is kind of silly because almost everything involves some kind of motion--very few teams run stand-still completely iso-based offenses. The real Princeton involves all players being able to pass and shoot--otherwise it's not really a full Princeton offense.

The triangle, in actuality is more reliant on low post play, which is likely where Spencer comes in.

[ICMTM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_offense

This should be interesting.

[SacKingZZZ]

The Kings formula for success in the Princeton was
Good passing bigs + Lots of scorers + Solid def in the paint = Lots of wins
The Kings have the personnel for this. Brad is as good a passer a Vlade. He was pretty good when he and Webber were the big guys, and were as good as the triangle only losing to the Lakers who got Robert Horry lucky threes to steal the victory (but the Kings were just as good).
Shelden, Hawes, Thompson, and Miller would be better running the Princton. The Kings have a Princton GM who has brought in Princeton personnel. Athletes are interchangable, yes but it would take a long time for these guys to learn since Brad knows it already. It sounds like it is not gauranteed anyway. I think it is a great idea to have the triangle if you have MJ or Kobe. Is Kevin going to be able to hit last second shots? I think the Princeton works better when you don't have a definite #1 go to guy. We really don't have one with Martin, Salmons, Garcia, Jackson, Douby, Udrich and Greene. But we do have lots of scorers where the Princton ball movement is gets so many open shots. I think we already have something there why go around your strengths. Shelden already ran Duke's system for 4 years, it is his 3rd year in the NBA. I don't know which system they use, but they can be molded. Shelden averaged 21/11/4blocks a game in his senior year. Shelden will not average as many points as CWebb, but CWebb never blocked as many shots as Shelden will.

Brad's not really relevant to what the team is going to learn--at least not at his age. And again, you can't underestimate how important passing from the bigs is, and how good those bigs have to be. Spencer may reach that point one day, but to just assume it's going to happen with him and especially with anyone else is pretty far-fetched. Chris and Vlade were both absolutely remarkable passers for bigs. Chris is by far (IMO) the best passing PF ever, and Vlade is definitely among the best centers ever in this regard. The odds of getting two bigs that can pass like that again are very, very low.
And please, let's stop overrating Shelden. Tons of players put up great stats in college and flop in the NBA. Relatively speaking, Shelden is no exception. That doesn't mean that he can't be a decent NBA player (I think he can), but he probably won't be much more than that.

Well it makes sense, Petrie always goes for that motion offense, like I have been saying. Anyway, believe it or not but the "Princeton" and "Triangle" are quite similar and the C-Webb era Kings did run quite a few triangle sets. It's all cutting and reading, same blah, blah, blah stuff.

It all comes down to play calls and style. Basically this is just saying that we are going to play based on ball movement and tempo. In looking at the roster it makes sense to me.

And there are plenty of teams that utilize both sets that don't have good passing bigs. It doesn't have to be the big initiating the offense, we just did that, and maybe can now, because the bigs have that skill. It reverses the offense and makes it very hard for other teams to defend. This team will most likely live off the pick and roll/pop just like almost every other team in the NBA.

Well they're not exactly the same, and it's not like the triangle was at all commonplace with the Kings--at least not the real triangle. Almost every team in the league runs some kind of "motion offense" whether it's a bastardized version of the Princeton or the triangle. I'm no expert on the triangle, but I have read some things on it, and it's not really all that much like the Princeton. Saying they both involve motion is kind of silly because almost everything involves some kind of motion--very few teams run stand-still completely iso-based offenses. The real Princeton involves all players being able to pass and shoot--otherwise it's not really a full Princeton offense.

The triangle, in actuality is more reliant on low post play, which is likely where Spencer comes in.

Which is exactly the point, it kind of is silly, the idea is to simply move the ball to the open spot. DUH!!! Now the tough part is getting the timing down. When to cut, when to pass, etc. Like I said, at the end of the day it usually breaks down into the basics. Look at the Wizards for example. They run Princeton sets but run a completely inverted version compared to the Kings of a few years ago. No team in the NBA runs a strict "_____" offense. An average NBA team is so filled with talent it really doesn't need to. Putting a guy like Hawes or Thompson on the block makes a lot of sense. So does them passing out of that position. One thing I think is interesting is that the Bulls used to run the triangle off of Jordan in the post. Now I certainly hope Theus doesn't think he can do the same thing with Kevin.

[Ballings7]

A lot already covered on this, but to sum it up, it's going to be interesting to see how this goes

[Bibbinator]

Get on that wagon boys.

I don't get why Laker fans visit the Kings board. They must be discreet Kings fans that hide deep deep down inside.

Because I never visit the Laker board. Never ever!

Well.. I'm just excited for the new Kings this season! I can't wait! They'll do a whole lot better than my Rams. =(

[pillwenney]

Which is exactly the point, it kind of is silly, the idea is to simply move the ball to the open spot. DUH!!! Now the tough part is getting the timing down. When to cut, when to pass, etc. Like I said, at the end of the day it usually breaks down into the basics. Look at the Wizards for example. They run Princeton sets but run a completely inverted version compared to the Kings of a few years ago. No team in the NBA runs a strict "_____" offense. An average NBA team is so filled with talent it really doesn't need to. Putting a guy like Hawes or Thompson on the block makes a lot of sense. So does them passing out of that position. One thing I think is interesting is that the Bulls used to run the triangle off of Jordan in the post. Now I certainly hope Theus doesn't think he can do the same thing with Kevin.

Of course no team runs one offense every single time down the floor but that doesn't mean that teams don't run primarily one offense. Like I said before, there's a reason that players that have learned the triangle are much more valuable to the Lakers than they are to everyone else. It's a very specific system that is so largely about adjusting accordingly to the defense (as opposed to just running the same set every time), that it requires specific learning. You seem to have the impression that it's just a bunch of people moving around, when it's just not that simple.

Like I've said before, lots of teams run versions that kind of look like a triangle or Princeton, but very, very few teams have the personal or the know-how to run these systems to their ultimate effectiveness. The Princeton, by definition, requires that all players can shoot and pass--otherwise the backdoor cuts that are the trademark of the system don't work, regardless of how you run it.

Bottom line: It's just not that simple.

[KF10]

Kenny Thomas is actually a good fit in the Triangle Offense. He fits the mold of the Triangle PF ideally IMO. IIRC the Lakers staff thought Thomas was a good fit for the Lakers in their offense couple years ago...

Thomas provides defense, rebounding, hustling and hopefully is mid range J in this offense.

[ICMTM]

The way I see it is he's going to have to play! Thompson isn't ready. SAR is done. Youth movement should spell the end for Moore. Kenny's not getting traded. If they are just going to banish him they may as well buy him out. He's not going to get bought out.

So they may as well play him?

[pillwenney]

The way I see it is he's going to have to play! Thompson isn't ready. SAR is done. Youth movement should spell the end for Moore. Kenny's not getting traded. If they are just going to banish him they may as well buy him out. He's not going to get bought out.

So they may as well play him?

Thompson is more ready than Kenny is. Thompson can at least make layups. And if we're going towards the youth movement, and that means we're benching Mikki, why on earth would we play Kenny?

[KingInExile]

The way I see it is he's going to have to play! Thompson isn't ready. SAR is done. Youth movement should spell the end for Moore. Kenny's not getting traded. If they are just going to banish him they may as well buy him out. He's not going to get bought out.

So they may as well play him?

At least if he's playing in a system that is beneficial for his skills, then he might actually start to look decent on the floor and, in turn, boost his value. He's never going to be a high-value trade piece. But maybe he can move it up enough to make him movable.

[OGSactownballer]

I have only really seen one post on this topic that really sums up the triangle accurately. It is an offense that relies on swingmen who can become the post-up player and create multiple options from the LOW post. the Princeton on the other hand relies entirely on big men who take position at the HIGH post and initiate the offense from there based on multiple screens and back cuts. On their face you would watch and think that the two are very similar, but they are not. We actually have very quietly gathered at least two and possibly more integral ingredients for the triangle in our current personnel. John Salmons and Francisco Garcia both have excellent back to the basket post games against guys their own size or smaller, and we have both a starting point with three point range (or has everyone forgotten the role of the relief valve shooter that the point plays in the Triangle) and a back up as well. We have a premier wing who can create for himself and score at will from anywhere on the floor, and we have skilled big men who can shoot up to or nearly three-point range to draw the opposing bigs out and create isos for the swingmen to take their man one on one.

[Bgil]

If you guys are really running the true Triangle offense then I see nothing but doom in your immediate future. The system is very very difficult on the NBA level. That's the reason only Phil Jackson's teams have attempted to run the entire system. It takes a minimum of two years to learn and that's the best case scenario.

Don't forget that guys like Payton and Malone (very high bball IQ's, HOF skill, and tons of experience) couldn't learn it in a year. You guys will struggle this year for sure. Your offense will be the ugliest thing you have ever seen for at least the first 2-3 months of the season. Your preseason games will be unwatchable.

I'm not saying this to hate but merely out of experience. We went through this same problem with Payton and Malone even while the rest of the team knew the offense perfectly. Then we went through it again in 2004 with Frank Hamblen... and again in 2005 with Phil Jackson re-teaching the offense to Kwame, Mihm, Lamar etc. all of that is with one or two (Kobe and Shaq) of the most knowledgeable triangle players in the world carrying most of the offensive weight.

It only takes one player making one bad read to **** the entire offense. You may not notice it when you watch Laker games but 90%+ of the time you see Kobe (or Farmar) take a bad shot that looks like it breaks the offense it's because some other player made a horrible read or bad reaction and stalled the offense. Rather than waiting for the defense to tighten around the stalled offense they just take the best shot they have at the moment as it's most likely the best shot they'll be able to get. That's the advantage of Kobe Bryant (and Farmar) having such great ability to create their own shot from anywhere on the floor. That's going to be Martin's job from now on because it's a given that the offense will stall.

Oh yeah, TEAMS ARE GOING TO ZONE THE HELL OUT OF YOU. It make take about 20-30 games but you'll notice that one team will randomly zone you up with success and the next thing you know you're on a big losing streak because everyone is zoning you. Happens to us every year. A few years back it was Minnesota who zoned us up and beat us 3 out of 4. In recent years it's been Memphis and several other sucky teams.

While the triangle offense was made to play against a zone it's a big adjustment when you're used to seeing man-to-man every game.

Good luck, you're gonna need it.

[DEEP3CL]

get off your high horse, its the bulls dynasty and the triangle offense, its not the lakers dynasty and the triangle offense

Your right it's not the Lakers or Bulls, cause neither one was the first to run the offense like you young heads think. It was the Milwaukee Bucks who ran it first with any success in the NBA . There coach Larry Costello learned the offense from Alex Hannum who learned it from Tex Winters while Winters was an assistant coach at USC under Sam Barry from whom he learned it from.