RealGM

Hi guys,
Just curious: why is MM starting over JT. He seems to be impeding his development, not to mention that Thompson seems to be the better player already. What's the point of giving minutes to an older player on a team that's young and developing? Thanks

Ask Reggie.

He's not impeding his development really, but Thompson does appear to bet the better player.

I'd say the main reason is that 3 games is too small of a sample size to say anything. Especially since Brad's presence will change things.

It's a safety thing. Vets win, kids don't. It's a long known fact in the NBA, unfortunately, the vets we have aren't going to win anyway so...

More minutes is always > less minutes. I don't care what the circumstances are. I hope as the season progresses it becomes the Thompson/Hawes starting frontline. Why waste any more time? Now is the time to find out if there is enough promise in these young guys to continue with them as center pieces. That and it's time for Martin to get significant time playing alongside these two.

The only vet I think should be getting major minutes is John Salmons. He could still be a nice piece moving forward and more importantly his value could very well sky rocket this year. Our 33 year old 2 rebound per game PF is an excellent complimentary piece, maybe even a solid starter on a really good team, not on ours however. I think there are a lot of teams Mikki could help, he just can't possibly do enough to help ours though. Ever.

Here are the per 40min production of the big guys. This is the same stat RealGM keeps also.
PP40_____RP40______AP40______BP40
14.8______12.5_______0.7________1.6_____Shelden Williams
24.5______13.5_______1.8________1.8_____Jason Thompson
15.4______12.8_______2.2________3.0_____Spencer Hawes
12.2_______2.6_______1.4________0.0_____Mikki Moore
0.0________2.9_______0.0________0.0_____Kenny Thomas

Obviously these are the very telling of the Kings big guys. #1, Jason Thompson is an elite big guy Tim Duncan-like big guy. He should be playing more minutes. He has Chris Webber like stats. I thought one of the reasons we picked Jason Thomspon in the draft was because he was a Senior he could help us more immediatly (he is 2 years older than Hawes). Some players are immediate impact guys and should play no matter what. We know what Brad will bring you 15/10/4/1, but Jason is better than him also. Lets look at Mikki's sad stats, 12/2.5/1.4/0 is the production Mikki bring if he played 40 min a game. No PF or C is the NBA is shaking about facing MM a score only one dimensional loser (see NYK veteran Stephon Marbury), only counting how much theire stats will be padded against MM. The team is better with him on the bench. Yesterday's game the Kings were outrebounded 28-40 which is the biggest factor they lost and Moore's and Thomas' biggest weakness. My #2 point is Shelden Williams and Spencer Hawes are equally productive big guys. They both should be playing big minutes also, much more than Moore or Thomas and are good at a lot more jobs that win basketball games. Play who is is hot each day between Hawes and Williams or even all 3 in spurts if they play against big lineups like Orlando, Lakers, Clippers or many other NBA teams. MM should only be used in case of severe emergency. Shelden is a third year player and looks much more comfortable on the floor on both sides of the ball, Spencer also looks much improved from his rookie year to this year. Michigan nearly won a national championship with 5 freshman one of them being Chris Webber. If you have a special player(see JT recruited by UCLA) you can win with other rookies because the special guy will put you on his back. Jason should be playing big minutes. Shelden was trusted by Coach K, Geoff Petrie trusted Spencer enough to make him a #10 pick and to trade Donte Green for Artest. Trust your young guys Theus they are much better than Thomas or Moore.

Ahh...the stat argument. Unfortunately stats don't play games, people do.

Frankly, it does not matter who starts the game. What matters is who finishes. Thompson was the one who finished the game last night. In fact he went into the game at the 6 minute mark of the 3rd and didn't leave. He finished the game with 24 minutes (more than Moore and Williams and the same as Hawes). He was fairly decent in those minutes. Unfortunately, though, he was getting abused by Howard and (to an extent) Battie. That's understandable because Thompson still needs to bulk up a bit more and needs to learn how to play against NBA bigs.

The simple fact is that Theus has been very clear about guys will get minutes when they earn minutes. Over the first 3 games Thompson has had between 19 and 24 minutes per game AND had in fact played more minutes than Moore in each of those games. It appears to me that Thompson has earned the privileged of more minutes than Moore. If he continues to take advantage of the minutes he's already earned, he will be rewarded with more.

Will he eventually be the starter? Who knows...and really, who cares. What's important is how many minutes he gets and whether he's on the floor in crucial times. Being the "starter" is really getting to be meaningless. Ask Manu Ginobili about the importance of being a starter, or Lamar Odom. There are a lot of very good players who are coming off the bench for significant minutes for strategic reasons. I think anyone fixating on whether Thompson is starting or not and are complaining because he's not is missing the big picture. He's a rookie who's played 3 games. And over those 3 games he has averaged 22 minutes...which happens to be more than what Kevin Love has averaged in Minnesota. In fact he has only gotten 5 min less per game than Beasley. The kid is doing fine and he's getting the minutes he's earned. Who cares whether those minutes are as a starter on not.

^^^^^^I absolutely agree with you Thompson doesn't have to start as long as he is getting minutes. Thompson is earning his minutes and should continue to get 20 when miller comes back. Hawes is earning his minutes as well and should steal a few from miller as the season progresses. Shelden williams is my main concern. He seems to be putting up great numbers when he gets the playing time and personally I think he should be eating into Moore's playing time. shelden should get a solid 15 min a game this year I think he earns it through hard work and if he losses a little bit more weight i think he could become a great role player for us.

cdt3 wrote:Here are the per 40min production of the big guys. This is the same stat RealGM keeps also.
PP40_____RP40______AP40______BP40
14.8______12.5_______0.7________1.6_____Shelden Williams
24.5______13.5_______1.8________1.8_____Jason Thompson
15.4______12.8_______2.2________3.0_____Spencer Hawes
12.2_______2.6_______1.4________0.0_____Mikki Moore
0.0________2.9_______0.0________0.0_____Kenny Thomas

Obviously these are the very telling of the Kings big guys. #1, Jason Thompson is an elite big guy Tim Duncan-like big guy. He should be playing more minutes. He has Chris Webber like stats. I thought one of the reasons we picked Jason Thomspon in the draft was because he was a Senior he could help us more immediatly (he is 2 years older than Hawes). Some players are immediate impact guys and should play no matter what. We know what Brad will bring you 15/10/4/1, but Jason is better than him also. Lets look at Mikki's sad stats, 12/2.5/1.4/0 is the production Mikki bring if he played 40 min a game. No PF or C is the NBA is shaking about facing MM a score only one dimensional loser (see NYK veteran Stephon Marbury), only counting how much theire stats will be padded against MM. The team is better with him on the bench. Yesterday's game the Kings were outrebounded 28-40 which is the biggest factor they lost and Moore's and Thomas' biggest weakness. My #2 point is Shelden Williams and Spencer Hawes are equally productive big guys. They both should be playing big minutes also, much more than Moore or Thomas and are good at a lot more jobs that win basketball games. Play who is is hot each day between Hawes and Williams or even all 3 in spurts if they play against big lineups like Orlando, Lakers, Clippers or many other NBA teams. MM should only be used in case of severe emergency. Shelden is a third year player and looks much more comfortable on the floor on both sides of the ball, Spencer also looks much improved from his rookie year to this year. Michigan nearly won a national championship with 5 freshman one of them being Chris Webber. If you have a special player(see JT recruited by UCLA) you can win with other rookies because the special guy will put you on his back. Jason should be playing big minutes. Shelden was trusted by Coach K, Geoff Petrie trusted Spencer enough to make him a #10 pick and to trade Donte Green for Artest. Trust your young guys Theus they are much better than Thomas or Moore.

I don't understand how you can think that posting those stats is a legitimate argument. Statistics in basketball simply don't work like that. Guys wear down throughout the course of a game. If a guy is playing well, teams adjust to them. It's one thing to use these stats to say that for instance Shelden is out producing Mikki in a way, but it's entirely another thing to say that because Jason is putting up x stats in 22MPG that it means that he's putting up Duncan-like numbers. That's just plain invalid.

I do agree though that going off of the first 3 games, it would appear that Shelden, Jason and Spencer all deserve minutes over Mikki. But then again, that's 3 games, so it is a little bit early. However, I also think KIE's point about starting being irrelevant is very valid.

I also kind of agree with the point we could potentially keep Mikki's value up if we play him enough. I think that if we keep his value up, and the right situation presents itself, it's not completely out of the realm of possibilities that we could squeeze a late, late 1st rounder out of somebody for him.

Im concerned that when Miller comes back, Thompson's minutes become inconsistent, and Shelden is cut out of the rotation all together.

thompson will start before around the 10-15 games into the season.

My opinion on the Jason Thompson starting thing doesn't have to do with stats, or wins, or anything but the final nail in the coffin of this team hiding from the fact that the only thing it should have going for it is developing it's young players.

Heck, Jason doesn't have to start but sackings916 is right, when Brad comes back what then? The fact is that Jason is going to get pushed back to 4th big. End result? Maybe 10 minutes a game if he's lucky. Sheldon without question gets cut out completely.

Not only does this team have a lot of young players, but those young players are outplaying the vets in front of them. Sure, they may not be our best chance to win now, but it doesn't look like we're winning much of anything anyway.

Although I do agree that Mikki/Brad playing major minutes is probably our best chance to win, I think it does nothing for us in the long term. It actually hurts us long term. The organization has been selling the "long term" thing for quite awhile so quick blowing smoke and do it already.

Actually, with Brad coming back, I could see Mikki drop out of the rotation altogether. He's been the second worst big so far (Kenny Thomas gets the "honor" of being worst), and we're clearly headed in a rebuilding direction. I won't be surprised to see Spencer starting alongside Brad, since he was our best big so far, with Thompson being #1 off the bench.

Brad and Mikki will not be dropped out of the rotation, simply because doing so would be incredibly stupid. Both do not fit on the team, and both could very well be traded. Because of this, their value has to be maintained.

After the deadline it would be a completely different story, but up until the deadline, we cannot afford to not play Miller/Mikki 20+ minutes a night at the very minimum.

this is pretty simple to say why !

brad will get traded very soon this year nobody will want him until he completes his 5 game suspension.
mikki will likely be traded before the seasons up unless we (the kings ) have a dramatic turn around and make a serious playoff run his contract is very moveable will only a partially guaranteed contract for next season

once these 2 are moved you will see jason,hawes & shelden will alot more minutes & possibly jason starting.

Well, to answer the basic question of "Why is Moore starting over Thompson". First of all, Moore is a veteran. It is a kind of "seniority" that most vet players get the nod over young, inexperience players. Which in this case, Thompson and Moore. Second of all, Moore is a better defender than Thompson. Moore is better in defensive rotation and PnR defense. But this is probably due to his experience over his time in the league. Thompson has the potential (and will be a better defender than Moore) when given more minutes. I think that is the only significant reasons "Why is Moore starting over Thompson".

Reggie always says that "when players play hard, they will be rewarded" If Thompson keeps this up, it is only a matter of time that Thompson will have significant minutes. But as is right now, Moore is our starting PF.

Moore was the starter all of last season and he came into this past training camp ready to go. Thompson has certainly shown he needs to receive minutes from his showings in the last three games. However, he has to earn that spot, showing he can do it consistently, and most importantly show he can compete . If he continues to shie like this he will get the bulk of minutes. Smills brought up an important point, in that Jason THompson is receiving great minutes when comparing him to other rookies. If Thompson can show he can make the most out of his opportunities he will progressively earn more minutes on this team.

"Mikki's job is not in jeopardy at all," Theus said before the Kings played in Miami. "If (young players) earn their minutes, they will get their minutes. (But) you've got to do something above and beyond to take a veteran's position in the starting lineup."

Still, Moore has grabbed just four rebounds in a combined 59 minutes while Thompson's rebounds-per-48-minute rate to this point (16.2) would have ranked as the sixth-best in the league by last season's standards. Yet while Thompson has been productive offensively and on the glass, his inexperience on defense and with the pro rules have led to frequent foul trouble."

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1365328.html

I think that is the critical issue...Jason has to do earn his minutes and define his role. Mikki currently seems to have the identity as a battle tested veteran and i am certainly using the term battle tested loosely. Theus is comfortable with Mikki and is giving him the opportunity to compete for that position, despite what Thompson does in 20 to 25 minutes a game.

nolimit0820 wrote:"Mikki's job is not in jeopardy at all," Theus said before the Kings played in Miami. "If (young players) earn their minutes, they will get their minutes. (But) you've got to do something above and beyond to take a veteran's position in the starting lineup."

Still, Moore has grabbed just four rebounds in a combined 59 minutes while Thompson's rebounds-per-48-minute rate to this point (16.2) would have ranked as the sixth-best in the league by last season's standards. Yet while Thompson has been productive offensively and on the glass, his inexperience on defense and with the pro rules have led to frequent foul trouble."

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1365328.html

I think that is the critical issue...Jason has to do earn his minutes and define his role. Mikki currently seems to have the identity as a battle tested veteran and i am certainly using the term battle tested loosely. Theus is comfortable with Mikki and is giving him the opportunity to compete for that position, despite what Thompson does in 20 to 25 minutes a game.

Although I can understand Reggies thinking to a degree it's a comment like that, that makes me wonder if Reggie is the right coach for this job.

I predict the sudden disappearance of a few promising young players from the rotation in the next few days. yikes....

I predict continued overreaction and outright pessimism among some posters on this board.

Moore is ranked #273 out of 350 NBA players in rebounding. The most important aspect in winning in basketball is rebounding, also in running the fastbreak offense you need rebounds. Why not let the youngs guys battle for time everyday? There's your carrot. Mikki Moore carrot is an old rotting little tiny soggy carrot. Be better than the suckiest rebounder in the league for his size. Great carrot coach. I see what you are doing but the bar needs to be raised for these guys. Spencer and Thompson know they can make the soph and rook allstar team if they work hard. JT has rookie of the year considerations if he gets enough minutes. The Mikki Moore carrot is so much lower than what the bar should be. Jason Thomspon is a competitor he is going to compete everyday and is ready to play more minutes. Of course he has to earn them. JT is a TD, KG, PP, Cwebb competitor. Spencer and Shelden are also very good competitors and more productive than MM or Thomas right now. Lets reach for those stars Coach, not MM. Expect playoffs for the team out of JT not to beat out MM. Way too low expectations. Raise that bar Reggie! If he messes around take away some PT and make him earn it back just like anybody else you can keep working without hurting the team for long term. Playing MM is a slap to the team, play Shelden or Hawes more minutes. MM is 1-10 as our Man including preseason, a .100 winning percentage. MM is TD like in the opposite direction.