All Things Luka Doncic

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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#801 » by XTraderXL » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:38 am

He improved his handle immensely in the last year. A year ago he was inconsistent bringing the ball up under pressure, now he has no problems and the ball is very secure in his hands. He is not flashy, you will not see fancy dribble all too often but he is certainly capable of doing it. He plays efficient basketball, always tries to do the right thing instead of the flashy one. For his size his handles are already very good (not elite) but he is improving fast and will be elite in a year or two.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#802 » by XTraderXL » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Last season stats.

2 Point Field Goals Made per 30
Doncic: 2.3
Ball: 2.3

Free Throws Made per 30
Doncic: 2.4
Ball: 1.5

Extremely low rates of shot creation, so it will be interesting if how Ball looks in this area at NBA level affects Doncic's stock.



Well, you cant really compare those rates. Ball had the keys to his team on UCLA, Lukas role was much different. I think you should take the stats from Eurobasket as those are closer to what we will be seeing this upcoming season.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#803 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:44 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Last season stats.

2 Point Field Goals Made per 30
Doncic: 2.3
Ball: 2.3

Free Throws Made per 30
Doncic: 2.4
Ball: 1.5

Extremely low rates of shot creation, so it will be interesting if how Ball looks in this area at NBA level affects Doncic's stock.


I'm not sure that aspect of their games play that huge of a part in the judgment of Doncic. I know for one if folks were drafting Lonzo with the idea of him creating for self and scoring then they are doing this scouting thing completely backwards. That won't be where his impact really lies.

I do think that element of Doncic's game is more important because I don't really see him getting the keys as the primary ball handler/decision maker on any of the teams projected to draft in his range. so he'll need to be able to create some offense for himself but I don't know if how he can will or should be predicated on what Lonzo does.

Do you see them as being used in the same capacity in the NBA?
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#804 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:47 am

XTraderXL wrote:He improved his handle immensely in the last year. A year ago he was inconsistent bringing the ball up under pressure, now he has no problems and the ball is very secure in his hands. He is not flashy, you will not see fancy dribble all too often but he is certainly capable of doing it. He plays efficient basketball, always tries to do the right thing instead of the flashy one. For his size his handles are already very good (not elite) but he is improving fast and will be elite in a year or two.


what is his shot off the bounce like? how quick and accurate is his release off the catch? I ask because advanced handle, quickness, burst can all be voided with a quick accurate trigger off the bounce and off the catch. I know the step-back is a pet move but I don't feel like I've seen enough of the other two aspects I asked about to gage accurately.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#805 » by Derento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:59 am

Marcus wrote:
XTraderXL wrote:He improved his handle immensely in the last year. A year ago he was inconsistent bringing the ball up under pressure, now he has no problems and the ball is very secure in his hands. He is not flashy, you will not see fancy dribble all too often but he is certainly capable of doing it. He plays efficient basketball, always tries to do the right thing instead of the flashy one. For his size his handles are already very good (not elite) but he is improving fast and will be elite in a year or two.


what is his shot off the bounce like? how quick and accurate is his release off the catch? I ask because advanced handle, quickness, burst can all be voided with a quick accurate trigger off the bounce and off the catch. I know the step-back is a pet move but I don't feel like I've seen enough of the other two aspects I asked about to gage accurately.

He's starting to shoot more pullups from 3 and midrange now instead just stepbacks.
His shot is normal/quick pullup but nothing that would be give him a big advantage.
I'd say solid improvement.
CS shot is good but isn't super quick like Klay thompson/Curry/Lowry.
He gained a habit from his mentor Sergio LLull for shooting deep quick release 3s sometimes those aren't really accurate.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#806 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:06 am

Derento wrote:
Marcus wrote:
XTraderXL wrote:He improved his handle immensely in the last year. A year ago he was inconsistent bringing the ball up under pressure, now he has no problems and the ball is very secure in his hands. He is not flashy, you will not see fancy dribble all too often but he is certainly capable of doing it. He plays efficient basketball, always tries to do the right thing instead of the flashy one. For his size his handles are already very good (not elite) but he is improving fast and will be elite in a year or two.


what is his shot off the bounce like? how quick and accurate is his release off the catch? I ask because advanced handle, quickness, burst can all be voided with a quick accurate trigger off the bounce and off the catch. I know the step-back is a pet move but I don't feel like I've seen enough of the other two aspects I asked about to gage accurately.

He's starting to shoot more pullups from 3 and midrange now instead just stepbacks.
His shot is normal/quick pullup but nothing that would be give him a big advantage.
I'd say solid improvement.
CS shot is good but isn't super quick like Klay thompson/Curry/Lowry.
He gained a habit from his mentor Sergio LLull for shooting deep quick release 3s sometimes those aren't really accurate.


stroke looks fluid enough to speed up if necessary. I think he can get that in the league. I need some full games to focus on his footwork before the shot and how hard and tight he comes off of curls. Don't think I've read any reports of him not being coachable either so nothing detrimental so far.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#807 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:11 am

Luka's role is that of primary ball handler right now or secondary to Dragic during this tourney? If it's secondary, his off ball movement is constant? how hard does he run and does he looks to attack off the catch or is he catching for the jumper first drive second?

The clips I've been able to catch show a lot of catch and reset for PnR play. I'm thinking with his vision and passing he could be just as effective coming off curls with multiple action/options on the catch with the spacing the NBA provides. So hard curls, quick release, willingness to attack are all important for translation. How much of that is already in place and how much of that needs to be learned/added?
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#808 » by Derento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:15 am

Marcus wrote:
Derento wrote:
Marcus wrote:
what is his shot off the bounce like? how quick and accurate is his release off the catch? I ask because advanced handle, quickness, burst can all be voided with a quick accurate trigger off the bounce and off the catch. I know the step-back is a pet move but I don't feel like I've seen enough of the other two aspects I asked about to gage accurately.

He's starting to shoot more pullups from 3 and midrange now instead just stepbacks.
His shot is normal/quick pullup but nothing that would be give him a big advantage.
I'd say solid improvement.
CS shot is good but isn't super quick like Klay thompson/Curry/Lowry.
He gained a habit from his mentor Sergio LLull for shooting deep quick release 3s sometimes those aren't really accurate.


stroke looks fluid enough to speed up if necessary. I think he can get that in the league. I need some full games to focus on his footwork before the shot and how hard and tight he comes off of curls. Don't think I've read any reports of him not being coachable either so nothing detrimental so far.

In the the warmup games before Eurobasket he was coming off Curls & Pick and Pops and he was shooting well & his shot look nice.
But once EuroBasket started it went back to the PnR and Spot Up. His Shooting coach the same as Paul George & Middleton, Mike Penberthy. Doncic shot looks a lot like PG's to me.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#809 » by Derento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:22 am

Marcus wrote:Luka's role is that of primary ball handler right now or secondary to Dragic during this tourney? If it's secondary, his off ball movement is constant? how hard does he run and does he looks to attack off the catch or is he catching for the jumper first drive second?

The clips I've been able to catch show a lot of catch and reset for PnR play. I'm thinking with his vision and passing he could be just as effective coming off curls with multiple action/options on the catch with the spacing the NBA provides. So hard curls, quick release, willingness to attack are all important for translation. How much of that is already in place and how much of that needs to be learned/added?

As another poster posted before he would look for a switch and reset if he couldn't get one.
The coach of SLV doesn't run a lot of off ball curls plays from what I've seen. RM if he plays SG for them will run a lot more for him.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#810 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:22 am

Derento wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Derento wrote:He's starting to shoot more pullups from 3 and midrange now instead just stepbacks.
His shot is normal/quick pullup but nothing that would be give him a big advantage.
I'd say solid improvement.
CS shot is good but isn't super quick like Klay thompson/Curry/Lowry.
He gained a habit from his mentor Sergio LLull for shooting deep quick release 3s sometimes those aren't really accurate.


stroke looks fluid enough to speed up if necessary. I think he can get that in the league. I need some full games to focus on his footwork before the shot and how hard and tight he comes off of curls. Don't think I've read any reports of him not being coachable either so nothing detrimental so far.

In the the warmup games before Eurobasket he was coming off Curls & Pick and Pops and he was shooting well & his shot look nice.
But once EuroBasket started it went back to the PnR and Spot Up. His Shooting coach the same as Paul George & Middleton, Mike Penberthy. Doncic shot looks a lot like PG's to me.


PG is very clean and quick with his release and to me is pretty solid example of not necessarily needing elite level handle (PG has a very good handle) to create a look. The threat of the shot opens up a lot for PG. I think that's important to have with the current climate of the NBA out on the perimeter. I know Steph Curry gets a lot of love for his handle but I think his shot is real key to why his handle is so effective. Doncic should be easily able to speed up his stroke once he sees the bodies fly at him next level with a quality coach like Penberthy.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#811 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:23 am

Derento wrote:
Marcus wrote:Luka's role is that of primary ball handler right now or secondary to Dragic during this tourney? If it's secondary, his off ball movement is constant? how hard does he run and does he looks to attack off the catch or is he catching for the jumper first drive second?

The clips I've been able to catch show a lot of catch and reset for PnR play. I'm thinking with his vision and passing he could be just as effective coming off curls with multiple action/options on the catch with the spacing the NBA provides. So hard curls, quick release, willingness to attack are all important for translation. How much of that is already in place and how much of that needs to be learned/added?

As another poster posted before he would look for a switch and reset if he couldn't get one.
The coach of SLV doesn't run a lot of off ball curls plays from what I've seen. RM if he plays SG for them will run a lot more for him.


i'll definitely be looking for that then.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#812 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:53 am



just so folks get an idea of where I'm coming from I'm taking a highlight package from the Latvia game and showing what I would personally look for in translation.

Play 1 good read off the boards no real challenge there though.

Play 2 again, no challenge but good read of the ball. I like where his eyes are in relation to ball/man/basket

Play 3 good patience drawing out the hedge, size for position and vision/ability to pass over the top showcased there

Play 4 same as 1 and 2.

Play 5 very smart reading the defense and the break finding space to get his look as a trailer also liked how he read and looked to follow his own shot.

Play 6 Ok here on this drive I would like for him to sink down more. He's given this kind of space to his man each trip down I'm assuming because the shooting on the other team is poor? anyway should sink down to provide some help. decent read and recovery to get the board but he would need to put a body on someone in the NBA in a situation like that.

Play 7 Highlight block looks good. BUT rotation was actually slightly late and in the NBA that more than likely is a dunk or and 1 if Doncic challenges that shot. Block was aided by low level athlete. He might get that on a few in the league but not many.

Play 8 Draws out the pick does a good job with the spacing, took off a beat too early but they were switching regardless so it didn't matter, NOW Luka has Porzi completely off balance on his heels this entire drive BUT it came across premeditated. he actually had the pullup right away once he first attacked the switch or his patented step-back would have been perfect. Once he got into Porzi's space and crossed between the legs, if you freeze it at the 45 second mark his lead foot is outside of Porzi, shoulders are lower, strong hand drive, going opposite direction of the defender with his back foot planted, all of that spells blow by, but we don't get the blow by, instead he backs down a seven footer, now to his credit he gained the space for the look and showed nice touch with the defender off balance, but this is an example of where athleticism would come into play. You have that many advantages on a drive and clearly enough power to move the defender on this play that should be an and1 finish at the cup.

Play 9 same as the rebounds earlier, first to react and put the effort in for the boards. He can get quite a few in the NBA just doing that.

Play 10 Beat off the dribble help was weak but shot was missed, another board for Luka

Play 11 Loved this transition play with Dragic, Doncic really shows high awareness when run lanes. hard initial run, reads the defense, and trails perfectly to be on time to receive the pass, very well done.

Play 12 again broken record with the read off the glass

Play 13 Post entry feed, reset, gets feet set well before the catch and nice smooth release, good balance.

Play 14 Much better with the attack this time around after the switch got Porzi leaning high and kept the shoulders dipped, good job of using his body for space and length at the cup.

Play 15 no comment lol

Play 16 I'll say good job for NOT forcing the drive when the space wasn't there. Hit a tough shot.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#813 » by The-Power » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:31 am

Marcus wrote:I don't think anyone is discrediting his skillset or what he's doing at his age, it still comes down to translation, can he do these things against higher level athletes. Whether the skill is there or not on the opposition we're still talking about a higher tier physical makeup and athleticism. We're still talking about closing the gap in skill with being quicker with the adjustment, quicker recovery when beat, higher off the floor to contest, longer arms to bother the handle, better athletes to hedge the picks, and a slew of other things that come down to just movement in general.

DeAndre Ayton, Michael Porter Jr, Mo Bamba, Marvin Bagley, Trevon Duvall, Wendell Carter Jr, Robert Williams, Miles Bridges, regardless of whom they've played against clearly have the answers for most if not all of those questions.

I strongly disagree with that take. Why would they have the answers to those questions? They are just as unknown as every other (less athletic and/or shorter) prospect. Plenty of athletic or long players never figure out a way to contribute against next-level athletes because the advantage that made them dominate before is suddenly gone. I'm not sure why we're supposed to believe that these guys are inherently more likely to have an answer to the questions you raised above.
It could actually be argued the exact opposite: they are going to struggle more because they never had to play against stronger, quicker, longer players than themselves – someone who always had to do that might be more capable of adjusting the same way he did before, just at the next level. Bottom line is that adjusting to the next level is difficult for all players and a lot of them will fail to be as good as advertised; I don't see one particular player being more or less likely to reach his potential. If anything my bet would be that someone like Duval is going to struggle a lot more to adjust unless he becomes a capable shooter because the way he plays just won't be possible in the NBA while there's nothing in Doncic' game that relies on playing against inferior athletes – even though it makes it a bit easier just like for everybody else, sure.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#814 » by reanimator » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:32 pm

The-Power wrote: Why would they have the answers to those questions? They are just as unknown as every other (less athletic and/or shorter) prospect. Plenty of athletic or long players never figure out a way to contribute against next-level athletes because the advantage that made them dominate before is suddenly gone. I'm not sure why we're supposed to believe that these guys are inherently more likely to have an answer to the questions you raised above.


Well, you could look at the top 20-30 players in the league and get your answer.

You're basically using the argument folks who were against letting kids go straight from HS used. Yes, some HS prospects busted but they had an overall higher success rate and comprised a larger share of the elite players than those coming out of college.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#815 » by Fischella » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:59 pm

I do have concerns with his shooting, is just a feeling but his gather is still weird and slow, and it feels non natural at times, he is good, but he is gonna have to be really good at shot making to reach nº1 type player ceiling, and I am not sure.

He would be 1º in my board as of today, cause of the combination of production, tools and youth, but I get the critics
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#817 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:34 pm

The-Power wrote:
Marcus wrote:I don't think anyone is discrediting his skillset or what he's doing at his age, it still comes down to translation, can he do these things against higher level athletes. Whether the skill is there or not on the opposition we're still talking about a higher tier physical makeup and athleticism. We're still talking about closing the gap in skill with being quicker with the adjustment, quicker recovery when beat, higher off the floor to contest, longer arms to bother the handle, better athletes to hedge the picks, and a slew of other things that come down to just movement in general.

DeAndre Ayton, Michael Porter Jr, Mo Bamba, Marvin Bagley, Trevon Duvall, Wendell Carter Jr, Robert Williams, Miles Bridges, regardless of whom they've played against clearly have the answers for most if not all of those questions.

I strongly disagree with that take. Why would they have the answers to those questions? They are just as unknown as every other (less athletic and/or shorter) prospect. Plenty of athletic or long players never figure out a way to contribute against next-level athletes because the advantage that made them dominate before is suddenly gone. I'm not sure why we're supposed to believe that these guys are inherently more likely to have an answer to the questions you raised above.
It could actually be argued the exact opposite: they are going to struggle more because they never had to play against stronger, quicker, longer players than themselves – someone who always had to do that might be more capable of adjusting the same way he did before, just at the next level. Bottom line is that adjusting to the next level is difficult for all players and a lot of them will fail to be as good as advertised; I don't see one particular player being more or less likely to reach his potential. If anything my bet would be that someone like Duval is going to struggle a lot more to adjust unless he becomes a capable shooter because the way he plays just won't be possible in the NBA while there's nothing in Doncic' game that relies on playing against inferior athletes – even though it makes it a bit easier just like for everybody else, sure.


If you're arguing the statement:

Having the tools and applying the tools are two different things. If I'm a NBA scout/staffer scouting talent I'm more likely to gravitate to the prospect with less of the physical disadvantages for the position, especially if I'm of the belief that the skill margin is close enough to be bridged or completely closed. If I think I can take the physical gifts and tools of this prospect and train them up in the game in general I'm probably going with the prospect with the tools. When I said answers I meant in terms of quick enough, bouncy enough, long enough, strong enough, tooled up enough to match what they'll see athletically. Whether or not its overwhelming for them and they can't adjust to having what they bring to the table matched is a completely different convo.

If you're arguing the perception:

I get where you're coming from and there is some validity to the argument. Hasn't stopped GMs from taking on projects with the thought that they could make something out of them regardless of what seems obvious to anybody else. We've seen plenty of cases where a player is low level athletically high level skill wise and find success in the NBA and the ones who have an elite level specific skill really thrive off that skill. So it's not a thing where it isn't possible and the math isn't exact to say better athlete means better basketball player. I agree with you in that respect. Doesn't change the facts though.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#818 » by Marcus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:37 pm

Fischella wrote:I do have concerns with his shooting, is just a feeling but his gather is still weird and slow, and it feels non natural at times, he is good, but he is gonna have to be really good at shot making to reach nº1 type player ceiling, and I am not sure.

He would be 1º in my board as of today, cause of the combination of production, tools and youth, but I get the critics


I was doing the math in terms of looking at the rosters of the teams expected to be in the running for number. Luka fits in some way on a good number of them, not sure if he beats out positional need and or perceived upside if Porter looks like a 3. Which of the possible number pick owning teams do you see taking Doncic over everyone else?
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#819 » by baca » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:41 pm

Input from another angel. Lauri Makkernan performs the same level as Luka Doncic in this tournament IMO. He had a great year in Arizona in NCAA and he is third team All-American and get drafted in No.7 in this year. For the posters who believe Doncic can toy NCAA players easily, this is a good comparison. Doncic could be really good in NCAA, but not dominant.

In Lauri case, he is picked as No.7 with his good skill and average athleticism among top NCAA prospect, I would say Doncic should be in the same ranking level, 4-8.
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Re: Is Luka Dončić 2018 NBA draft 1st pick? 

Post#820 » by Fischella » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:43 pm

Marcus wrote:
Fischella wrote:I do have concerns with his shooting, is just a feeling but his gather is still weird and slow, and it feels non natural at times, he is good, but he is gonna have to be really good at shot making to reach nº1 type player ceiling, and I am not sure.

He would be 1º in my board as of today, cause of the combination of production, tools and youth, but I get the critics


I was doing the math in terms of looking at the rosters of the teams expected to be in the running for number. Luka fits in some way on a good number of them, not sure if he beats out positional need and or perceived upside if Porter looks like a 3. Which of the possible number pick owning teams do you see taking Doncic over everyone else?

That's tough, Chicago if they really like Lauri could be, Sacramento obviously since they have 1000 bigs, although none of them are good ofc, the Knicks probably.

I have Chicago, Phoenix, Sacramento, NY and Atlanta/Brooklyn as my bottom 5 teams

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