Frank Ntilikina

[jrob23]

If he is that good, how he's only making 3.9 pts, 1.6 rbt and 0.6 asst in French league, which is not exactly the best in Europe?

because Euro leagues play vets over punk kids no matter if they're future NBA lottery picks. I thought you were a Euro expert. How does this reality escape you? That's poor trolling friend. Do better.

Frank has lowest PER on the team so it's not like he's only getting benched for being young. It appears he is to his French team what Exum is to the 16-17 Jazz

troll better plz

[Bob8]

because Euro leagues play vets over punk kids no matter if they're future NBA lottery picks.

nah, it really isn't. Even the kids that do get 20 mpg are still getting less minutes than lesser talented vets. This is a fact. These kids are the best in your leagues and are 1st rounders. If Euro played according to talent they'd play these kids full time in most cases. But they don't because why should they reward them knowing they'll leave in a year? You're just being argumentative to try and sound like a Euro expert. Sorry bro, not right on this one. Stat sheets don't lie.

Totally untrue. For example, Darussafaka has payed $300.000 buyout to Cibona for Zizic just for 6th months deal. We all know he's going to Boston after that. Why Darussafaka did this? Because he's that good and they need his help in Euroleague and Zizic is getting a lot of minutes. In Europe the best always play. Because they are professionals and want results. The coaches are getting fired very fast if clubs don't have expected results. Maccabi Tel Aviv has fired 2 coaches in few months because of that. Players are getting out of the club very fast too. And because of that the best at the moment always play, the problem for young players especially in Euroleague is, that they have to compete for playing time with Europe stars like Teodosic, Llull, Nando Decolo, Spanoulis.. and with very good american players who were someday stars in NCAA but didn't make it in Nba, but are now grownups, stronger, more experienced and better players at the moment than young players. Euroleague is very near Nba in this regard, no mercy, who is not prepared won't get many chances. In club like Strasbourg who's playing in 3rd tier competition with no stars and not the best americans, Ntilikina would have played 30+ minutes if he really was one of the best, like you're saying he is. But he's not, not at this moment anyway.

[WalterBenjamin]

Totally untrue. For example, Darussafaka has payed $300.000 buyout to Cibona for Zizic just for 6th months deal. We all know he's going to Boston after that. Why Darussafaka did this? Because he's that good and they need his help in Euroleague and Zizic is getting a lot of minutes. In Europe the best always play. Because they are professionals and want results. The coaches are getting fired very fast if clubs don't have expected results. Maccabi Tel Aviv has fired 2 coaches in few months because of that. Players are getting out of the club very fast too. And because of that the best at the moment always play, the problem for young players especially in Euroleague is, that they have to compete for playing time with Europe stars like Teodosic, Llull, Nando Decolo, Spanoulis.. and with very good american players who were someday stars in NCAA but didn't make it in Nba, but are now grownups, stronger, more experienced and better players at the moment than young players. Euroleague is very near Nba in this regard, no mercy, who is not prepared won't get many chances. In club like Strasbourg who's playing in 3rd tier competition with no stars and not the best americans, Ntilikina would have played 30+ minutes if he really was one of the best, like you're saying he is. But he's not, not at this moment anyway.

Because Blatt has a personal relashionship with Zizic and has loved his game from the age of 16. It's a so specific situation that u can't use it as a comparison. And Zizic himself is an exception for being so good so early in his career.

[Bob8]

Totally untrue. For example, Darussafaka has payed $300.000 buyout to Cibona for Zizic just for 6th months deal. We all know he's going to Boston after that. Why Darussafaka did this? Because he's that good and they need his help in Euroleague and Zizic is getting a lot of minutes. In Europe the best always play. Because they are professionals and want results. The coaches are getting fired very fast if clubs don't have expected results. Maccabi Tel Aviv has fired 2 coaches in few months because of that. Players are getting out of the club very fast too. And because of that the best at the moment always play, the problem for young players especially in Euroleague is, that they have to compete for playing time with Europe stars like Teodosic, Llull, Nando Decolo, Spanoulis.. and with very good american players who were someday stars in NCAA but didn't make it in Nba, but are now grownups, stronger, more experienced and better players at the moment than young players. Euroleague is very near Nba in this regard, no mercy, who is not prepared won't get many chances. In club like Strasbourg who's playing in 3rd tier competition with no stars and not the best americans, Ntilikina would have played 30+ minutes if he really was one of the best, like you're saying he is. But he's not, not at this moment anyway.

Because Blatt has a personal relashionship with Zizic and has loved his game from the age of 16. It's a so specific situation that u can't use it as a comparison. And Zizic himself is an exception for being so good so early in his career.

He knows his brother. But he didn't bring him in Darussafaka because of that, but because he needed a C and Ziziz was that good in Adriatic league. And it was a great move for Darussafaka, Ziziz and Celtics, because Zizic is playing better games and will improve more. And that's exactly what I'm saying. If you're good enough you will play. Why any coach will rather play with expensive veterans if he has on disposal better young players?

[WalterBenjamin]

Ok so what does it say about Ntilikina? That he is bad? Not all players have the same growth curve. To say that Ntilikina is a bad proscpect because of his stats is silly.

[Mirotic12]

nah, it really isn't. Even the kids that do get 20 mpg are still getting less minutes than lesser talented vets. This is a fact. These kids are the best in your leagues and are 1st rounders. If Euro played according to talent they'd play these kids full time in most cases. But they don't because why should they reward them knowing they'll leave in a year? You're just being argumentative to try and sound like a Euro expert. Sorry bro, not right on this one. Stat sheets don't lie.

Everything you said there is completely 100% factually untrue and totally false. You can't push myths and agendas on people that actually do follow European basketball.

Because Blatt has a personal relashionship with Zizic and has loved his game from the age of 16. It's a so specific situation that u can't use it as a comparison. And Zizic himself is an exception for being so good so early in his career.

All through Europe young players get playing time and always have. Way more than they do in NBA, and at younger ages, like high school age. All through Europe you have guys playing in senior men's clubs that in USA would be in high school or college basketball.

It's always been that way. This ridiculous made up myth about how only veterans play in Europe.... it's easily the most ridiculous of all American myths about European basketball.

Ok so what does it say about Ntilikina? That he is bad? Not all players have the same growth curve. To say that Ntilikina is a bad proscpect because of his stats is silly.

No one is saying that he is a bad player. Just that he has the role and minutes he has because that's his level per his league and team. The issue is claiming things like, (paraphrasing) "all young players get benched in Europe for much worse players, even top 5 lotto picks, that are the best players in Europe, sit on the bench for some scrub veterans that can't play in NCAA level".........

This is absolutely ridiculous and then some. Not only is it complete untrue on all levels, but the true fact is the exact opposite, where young players in general get way more playing time and start at a much younger age as compared to the NBA.

Ntilikina isn't a bad player...he just is what he is, a role player in his team, that quite frankly, does have some better players than him. His playing time is just what it is - what he earns and deserves.

People in this forum made this same absurd argument about Hezonja, "he does not play in Barca because they know he is going to NBA", "he does not play in Barca because they always play veterans that are much worse over young players", etc., etc.....

It was totally untrue and ridiculous. Hezonja didn't play that much in Barca because he was inconsistent, he made bad choices on offense, he didn't listen to the coaches much, he didn't play much defense, and because they had better players than him at his position. And he was getting plenty of playing time, until he was easily Barca's worst player in the EuroLeague playoffs. He played incredibly bad, and honestly was the reason they lost the series. If he had been benched the whole time, they would have won the series. So yeah, his coach benched him - for poor play, and nothing else.

Yet we had this forum full of these nonsense made up claims about how, "no young player ever gets to play in Europe, LeBron would have been benched at age 21 if he was in Europe", and all that nonsense.

It's annoying to European basketball fans to constantly see these totally made up and untrue myths about European basketball just always being stated as if they are cold hard facts.

Ntilikina specifically - he isn't playing bad like Hezonja was, it's just that his team has some better scorers, some better shooters, and some better play makers and creators at his same position. On Ntilikina's team (SIG), Slaughter is a better shooter and better at getting his own shot, Walker is a better shooter, a better ball handler, better at getting his shot, and a better scorer, Lacombe is a better creator and play maker, and he's better at beating people with his dribble.

The coach is trying to win games and gets paid a huge salary to do so. His job isn't to showcase some 18 year old kid so that he can get drafted 1-2 places higher by the NBA. European pro basketball at the top levels isn't some D-League, it's real serious basketball and it's also not like NBA where some teams tank and lose on purpose. No one does that in European basketball, and as bob8 said, coaches get fired extremely quick for losing.

If a young player deserves playing time, he will get it for sure in European basketball. Hell, one of the best EuroLeague coaches ever, Dusan Ivkovic, actually almost always preferred to play young unproven players over vets. Every team knew they had to load the team with young players for him. And we have American sports myths that no young player ever gets a chance in Europe.

[WalterBenjamin]

You se Mirotic I am from Europe. You can't paternize me. I presume you understand the construction of European basketball leauges.
How much competiton and clubs are in Europe?! A great amount. Compare that to the American sistem of basketball. Don't speak as if there is any kind of reciprocity of players age in those two continents! (not leagues). Regarding that point you re wrong and there aint nothing to discuss.

You just dont understand basketball for me. Sorry you can think the same about me but eaven before I registerd to this forum I rememberd you as not having much basketball knowledge eaven though you watch basketball. Or is it your stance with euro players. You have that name Mirotic. Is he a player you thought would be good in the NBA?

You are talking about Ntilikina as a bad scoorer in Europe?! WTF? 18 years old. With the rules in Europe.

[SportsGuy8]

Mirotic, who has a SARCASTIC screen-name (he was one of the rare posters who were highly skeptical about Mirotic), is correct with most of the things he wrote here.

It just looks like many of the posters can't wrap their heads around how elite athletic talent (and even elite individual skills) doesn't bring you far in Europe, mostly because defenses are still allowed to play real, hard defense, unlike the NBA where rules heavily favor offensive players, especially perimeter players.

Prime Iverson struggled at the Olympics in 2004, same for Derrick Rose ... They are perfect examples showing how you really cannot get far without a truly complete game. If you're a bad shooter and not a team-player you're going to struggle, as simple as that, no matter how unreal your athleticism is.

This is not a knock on Ntilikina, he's young, he's most likely going to improve substantially, but right now he's not getting minutes because he's simply not good enough (YET!). His individual skills don't really matter much, what matters is how well you play in actual games, within a team.

[UcanUwill]

Personally, I have no idea why his stats on SIG are so bad. Granted I have only seen him in U18 semifinal and final, arguably his 2 best games in his entire career, but man did he looked great. Looks like will be a beast defender at the least, and his handle, fluidity and shot look pretty good. I would roll the dice with him for sure, shorter Giannis is in play over here.

[Mirotic12]

Personally, I have no idea why his stats on SIG are so bad. Granted I have only seen him in U18 semifinal and final, arguably his 2 best games in his entire career, but man did he looked great. Looks like will be a beast defender at the least, and his handle, fluidity and shot look pretty good. I would roll the dice with him for sure, shorter Giannis is in play over here.

Ntilikina has a good shot and a good handle, and he's clearly a very talented player. The reason his stats and PT are not that great in his team is simple - they have older players at his position (guard spots) that are simply better players than him right now. Erving Walker for example - there is no way any reasonable or objective person could watch an SIG game, and not realize Walker is just a way better player, by a long way, right now than Ntilikina is.

And Lacombe...he has his issues and flaws as a player, but he's a really big guard, with a great handle, and he's very crafty and has a great ability to break down defense and get into the lane to create a shot for himself or anyone else. When you have these kinds of players, of course an 18 year old kid that is still a project isn't going to play much. The fact he gets about 15 minutes a game just proves that his coach is going out of his way to develop him and make sure he gets to play, even if he does not play well.

It's actually the opposite of what some people claim here. If anything, he gets a special treatment as compared to the other players, with still being guaranteed playing time, even when he looks like an 18 year old kid.

SIG just played their playoff series in Basketball Champions League against Aris. Ntilikina was definitely not good in the first game, yet he got his playing time regardless. Then right off the bat he got good playing time in the 2nd game. He wasn't benched after the first game, and he in fact was starting in a playoff elimination game in the next game. Anyone that can claim that is a coach not giving him a fair chance is obviously just making up stuff. No way in hell would he get chances like that right now in the NBA.

Again, it's not that he's not a good player, it's just that his team has some other better players than him.

If you want to see Ntilikina at pro level, here is the first BCL playoff game between SIG and Greek club Aris:

Watch on YouTube

The second game of the playoffs should be uploaded soon, and I will post it once it is. Ntilikina probably had his best game I ever saw him play with SIG in that game. But as you can see if you watch, there is a huge difference in level from under-18 level to 3rd tier Champions League.

[jrob23]

Personally, I have no idea why his stats on SIG are so bad. Granted I have only seen him in U18 semifinal and final, arguably his 2 best games in his entire career, but man did he looked great. Looks like will be a beast defender at the least, and his handle, fluidity and shot look pretty good. I would roll the dice with him for sure, shorter Giannis is in play over here.

Ntilikina has a good shot and a good handle, and he's clearly a very talented player. The reason his stats and PT are not that great in his team is simple - they have older players at his position (guard spots) that are simply better players than him right now. Erving Walker for example - there is no way any reasonable or objective person could watch an SIG game, and not realize Walker is just a way better player, by a long way, right now than Ntilikina is.

And Lacombe...he has his issues and flaws as a player, but he's a really big guard, with a great handle, and he's very crafty and has a great ability to break down defense and get into the lane to create a shot for himself or anyone else. When you have these kinds of players, of course an 18 year old kid that is still a project isn't going to play much. The fact he gets about 15 minutes a game just proves that his coach is going out of his way to develop him and make sure he gets to play, even if he does not play well.

It's actually the opposite of what some people claim here. If anything, he gets a special treatment as compared to the other players, with still being guaranteed playing time, even when he looks like an 18 year old kid.

SIG just played their playoff series in Basketball Champions League against Aris. Ntilikina was definitely not good in the first game, yet he got his playing time regardless. Then right off the bat he got good playing time in the 2nd game. He wasn't benched after the first game, and he in fact was starting in a playoff elimination game in the next game. Anyone that can claim that is a coach not giving him a fair chance is obviously just making up stuff. No way in hell would he get chances like that right now in the NBA.

Again, it's not that he's not a good player, it's just that his team has some other better players than him.

If you want to see Ntilikina at pro level, here is the first BCL playoff game between SIG and Greek club Aris:

Watch on YouTube

The second game of the playoffs should be uploaded soon, and I will post it once it is. Ntilikina probably had his best game I ever saw him play with SIG in that game. But as you can see if you watch, there is a huge difference in level from under-18 level to 3rd tier Champions League.

just watched. You're clueless bro. He didn't play bad at all. He was very disruptive defensively and forced two turnovers. He got called for 3 fouls but two of the were laughable. He's a damn good defender. His length, size, and footwork is going to enable him to be an elite defender in time. He hit 3 of 4 FTs and 1 of 2 from the floor. Where in God's name did you see him playing poorly. Lmao what a fraud. His teammates are horrible. They had 26 turnovers!!!!!! 26!!!!! Ntilikina had 1. Nice try. You clearly have an agenda. The kid played SG and nobody looks his way when he did. He had issues as a PG. I don't think a single point was scored off of him. You give scouts that game tape and they come away extremely impressed. Your evaluation skills are lacking son. Give it up

[WalterBenjamin]

For once I agree with jrob23.

[Bob8]

For once I agree with jrob23.

If what Ntilikina showed in that game in 3rd tier competition in Europe is enough for someone to be called top prospect, top 10 in the world, than we can't say anything else than we agree to disagree. And even if we agree that he's a top prospect the question is, in what time can he contribute in Nba team? He looks to have very long way to go.

[JPF]

For once I agree with jrob23.

If what Ntilikina showed in that game in 3rd tier competition in Europe is enough for someone to be called top prospect, top 10 in the world, than we can't say anything else than we agree to disagree. And even if we agree that he's a top prospect the question is, in what time can he contribute in Nba team? He looks to have very long way to go.

He is a top prospect. He has some really good attributes to develop into a great defender. However currently he is overwhelmed by the competition level he currently plays in, you can see that from his offensive game at the moment. That transition period depends, could be over within next 2-3 months or even 2-3 years.
I disagree with Mirotic that the coach is playing him more than he deserves, it's easier to play good defenders at young age as that rarely influences the score negatively for the team, even if most fans are judging those player by their offensive efficiency.

Most posters here will likely disagree with me, however Ntilikina's imo shouldn't rush to NBA just yet. He might get drafted pretty high in 2017, while staying in europe for one more year would be the way to go. When he fully adapts the level he currently plays in, transition to NBA would be noticably easier for him, not to mention he isn't yet fully developed physicaly and at this particular moment he doesn't have all that much to offer, except for the raw talent. That being said unless he makes a tremendous leap during the summer, he won't be able to perform in NBA just yet, with the predictable most often comparison: Dante Exum.

[reanimator]

Like I said earlier in the thread, speed of the game is the biggest obstacle for Frank. The best way for him to adjust to the speed of the NBA is to come over and play. It will take a few years but so what? I don't think Euro perimeter players benefit like their bigmen by growing in the Euroleague.

[JPF]

Like I said earlier in the thread, speed of the game is the biggest obstacle for Frank. The best way for him to adjust to the speed of the NBA is to come over and play. It will take a few years but so what? I don't think Euro perimeter players benefit like their bigmen by growing in the Euroleague.

They do benefit, however the ones that actualy play. Those are rare instances though as most of PG's aren't fit to play in euroleague at young age, but play in lower divisions instead. And a lot of decent, just slightly less talented PG's suddenly end up on a significantly lower level, worse training, coaches, competition and naturaly the talent+performance gap widens within a while. Most european PG's get neglected at a very young age, since NT coaches etc have to make a selection somehow at some point- because of that european basketball lacks that huge poll NCAA f.e. has and fails to develop PG's at remotely simmilar level or number compared to NCAA. As a result, there is a huge influx of good (yet not NBA good) US PG's that have a big quality edge over those 18, 19 years old euro's, along with veteran euro players that might not be as talented, but are still significantly better players due to experience, all that decreases 19 y.o.'s playing time and the cycle is complete. Some otherwise good euro national teams, Russia, Italy, Croatia, Turkey almost have no PG to play with.
The ones that crack the rotation at the age of 18, just as Ntilikina did, which is not all that often, imo do benefit more from playing more minutes in europe, than solely being in NBA. Sergio Rodriguez (former Blazer, now a Sixer) is imo a good example since he traveled back and forth.

A lot of players that didn't make it in the NBA and returned back to europe, said a simmilar thing: while individual trainings in NBA are way above anything you get in europe, with all the traveling and the schedule, there isn't really much 5 on 5 basketball practices in NBA and even those 5 on 5 practices aren't played full strenght (slight difference in europe as far as intensity on practices goes), let alone against teams best players that have to stay fresh for the game, that's why a lot of those guys got to the same conclusion: if you are playing in NBA, that's the best thing for your development, however if you keep on riding bench or only play minor minutes, lack of 5 on 5 starts getting to you to the extent it becomes hard to improve. It's not a rare occurence that a benchwarming player is considered worse after returning from NBA compared to when he left.

As far as Ntilikina, to me it seems very obvious, he is overwhelmed by everything happening on court right now, the game is being too fast at the level he is currently playing, I don't see a way you can improve that with individual practices, he needs tons of playing time to adjust and that's it.


Since big man are scarce, some of those 19, 20 years olds don't even have that much of a competition to begin with, it's not as hard for them to get some playing time and eventualy they benefit from it.

[coutournant]

Ntilikina struggles since the beginning of the season because he is playing off the ball. He never played at the wing before, that's a big part of his low statistics, since he doesn't know how to position offensively without being the playmaker of his team. He always excelled as the floor general of his teams in youth categories. Strasbourg's former coach, Henrik Dettman who has been fired, recruited two US guards at the beginning at the season, Slaughter and Walker top players of Pro A. That was obviously not a good move for Frank. Slaughter and Lacombe are actually a lot better than Ntilikina but it is not true for Walker, even if the coach is still letting him playing a lot despite being sometimes very bad at setting his teammates and defending.

Since a couple of games Ntilikina is in the starting five at the small forward position due to Pape Sy (former NBA player) injury. It seems like he is adapting more and more playing at the wing because he produced two of his best games this season : he made 15pts 4rbd 2ast and 12 pts 2 rbds 2 stls against Gravelines. I hope Frank will keep improving this way because it is obvious his coach won't let him flourish at the point in this team.

[jrob23]

Ntilikina struggles since the beginning of the season because he is playing off the ball. He never played at the wing before, that's a big part of his low statistics, since he doesn't know how to position offensively without being the playmaker of his team. He always excelled as the floor general of his teams in youth categories. Strasbourg's former coach, Henrik Dettman who has been fired, recruited two US guards at the beginning at the season, Slaughter and Walker top players of Pro A. That was obviously not a good move for Frank. Slaughter and Lacombe are actually a lot better than Ntilikina but it is not true for Walker, even if the coach is still letting him playing a lot despite being sometimes very bad at setting his teammates and defending.

Since a couple of games Ntilikina is in the starting five at the small forward position due to Pape Sy (former NBA player) injury. It seems like he is adapting more and more playing at the wing because he produced two of his best games this season : he made 15pts 4rbd 2ast and 12 pts 2 rbds 2 stls against Gravelines. I hope Frank will keep improving this way because it is obvious his coach won't let him flourish at the point in this team.

just stop. It's embarrassing lmao. smh. And no, it's not because he "doesn't know how to position offensively". It's because his teammates suck and don't look for him...like at all..when he's a SG. You guys are going to look really foolish come draft night and when he succeeds in the NBA. Are you sure you want to hitch your wagon to this narrative?

[JPF]

just stop. It's embarrassing lmao. smh. And no, it's not because he "doesn't know how to position offensively". It's because his teammates suck and don't look for him...like at all..when he's a SG. You guys are going to look really foolish come draft night and when he succeeds in the NBA. Are you sure you want to hitch your wagon to this narrative?

There is no such thing as pre-determination as far as succes go. It's ridicioulus there are people that actualy believe that.

If you played some basketball in your life, than I guess you could probably understand what coutournant was saying, but than again... you obviously didn't. Coutournant is French I assume and probably watched Strasbourg a lot this season to come up with these observations and I don't think he'll actualy be furious if Ntilikina makes it ...which makes your comment that more ... yeah, embarrassing.

[reanimator]

@JPF I think you make some valid points but I'd argue the the obstacles for Sergio Rodriguez were far more than just the speed of the game like it is with Ntilikina. Ntilikina will earn minutes for his defense initially and expand from there. I've said it before but I expect him to "figure it out" heading into that 2nd contract. If he stay in Europe, he will still have to make a transition to the speed..maybe not as dramatic...but a steep learning curve by coming over early might mean getting the rewards much sooner.