Obi Toppin/Dayton Flyers

[tidho]

I just don't see it with him. Amare was an insane athlete and Toppin isn't, so I don't really see the comp there.

In most drafts I don't think he'd even sniff the lotto.

Toppin is an insane athlete. I see him as more like Chris Webber than Amare.

alright, break pumping time

[King Ken]

I just don't see it with him. Amare was an insane athlete and Toppin isn't, so I don't really see the comp there.

In most drafts I don't think he'd even sniff the lotto.

Toppin is an insane athlete. I see him as more like Chris Webber than Amare.

alright, break pumping time

Speak for yourself kiddo, I'll speak for me

[getrichordie]

Anybody notice how Toppin does that dirty, illegal AF push-off when rolling off a screen? Happens around 1:50 in video below...

Spoiler:

https://youtu.be/Uu_eq1S20nI

[getrichordie]

How does he not get called for a foul right here? This is a good example of how awful Toppin is going to be when switched out on to the perimeter in space.

@4:20

Watch on YouTube

;t=254s

[karkinos]

i see the amare comps
with guys who have that amare profile, lack of defense really hasn't kept them off the floor as long as they put points on the scoreboard and get fans to watch.

[getrichordie]

i see the amare comps
with guys who have that amare profile, lack of defense really hasn't kept them off the floor as long as they put points on the scoreboard and get fans to watch.

Amare could actually play defense, though.

[karkinos]

Eh, I'll just say we disagree on that.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[XTC]

i see the amare comps
with guys who have that amare profile, lack of defense really hasn't kept them off the floor as long as they put points on the scoreboard and get fans to watch.

Amare could actually play defense, though.

Nobody:

No one on realgm:

Not a single soul in the world:

GetRichOrDie: Amare could actually play defense

[karkinos]

i didn't know we were talking about big3 amare

[King Ken]

He's not gonna be unguardable in the NBA + his passing he could be extremely special on offense in the ideal situation.

[King Ken]

How does he not get called for a foul right here? This is a good example of how awful Toppin is going to be when switched out on to the perimeter in space.

@4:20

Watch on YouTube

;t=254s

He looked like he was in recovery on a rotation. He looks so much like Amar'e it's insane in terms of movements on both ends, first step and explosiveness. He even got the same upper body and back. He plays a lot like Chris Webber though.

Edit: He wasn't in recovery, he just flat got caught reaching without using his hands. He's lucky the big's first step was trash.

[getrichordie]

i see the amare comps
with guys who have that amare profile, lack of defense really hasn't kept them off the floor as long as they put points on the scoreboard and get fans to watch.

Amare could actually play defense, though.

Nobody:

No one on realgm:

Not a single soul in the world:

GetRichOrDie: Amare could actually play defense

I mean... he could for a while... until injuries caught up.

[pad300]

I kind of wonder if the concern about Obi's D is getting a bit overrated. Yeah, he's been no good defensively in college. But he has the physical tools to be decent (even good) - wingspan, vertical, footspeed (yeah, his current side to side technique is terrible, but he has footspeed when playing Offense, so the physical capability is there). It's just his technique/effort level is poor... But in college, it didn't matter - he was going to play and start anyways, because Dayton has nobody else who can compete with him. In the NBA, it's distinctly possible he'll get told Play D or sit... It's going to be a significant task to coach him up, but you can teach D.

[getrichordie]

I kind of wonder if the concern about Obi's D is getting a bit overrated. Yeah, he's been no good defensively in college. But he has the physical tools to be decent (even good) - wingspan, vertical, footspeed (yeah, his current side to side technique is terrible, but he has footspeed when playing Offense, so the physical capability is there). It's just his technique/effort level is poor... But in college, it didn't matter - he was going to play and start anyways, because Dayton has nobody else who can compete with him. In the NBA, it's distinctly possible he'll get told Play D or sit... It's going to be a significant task to coach him up, but you can teach D.

You can't teach a guy to have more fluid hips, though. Some guys are just stiff as all get out and that's Toppin is. Footspeed on offense is often just N/S. What Toppin struggles with is flipping his hips and E/W movement which is largely the foundation for good defense.

[The-Power]

But he has the physical tools to be decent (even good).

See, this is where people including myself disagree. I see terrible tools when I watch him play.

[King Ken]

Amare could actually play defense, though.

Nobody:

No one on realgm:

Not a single soul in the world:

GetRichOrDie: Amare could actually play defense

I mean... he could for a while... until injuries caught up.

Amar'e defense even at his peak is like Toppin. He was sniff as an old rod in space. Most his defense was based on getting steals and blocks which will be the case for Toppin too but how the defense is in the modern NBA, both are kinda outta touch due to their lack of lateral mobility.

Obi is getting a worse rap on defense than he deserve. I've heard clowns compare him to Jahlil Okafor on that end. Obi to me will likely top out at below average on that end but no way is he Okafor. He's superior in so many ways. Defensive fundamentals, communication, defensive playmaking skills, good time reaction skills, knows where he's suppose to be. He's more Jared Dudley without the lateral quickness more than scrubs plus Okafor was a very good post defender out of Duke even if he was awful at everything else on that end.

Also Obi was a big part of the reason Dayton defense was very good this year. Negative defenders are almost always negatives in college for their team's defense. Obi favorably compares impact wise on defense to Dwight Powell, Larry Nance Jr. And Noah Vonleh as a prospect for defensive impact. None of those guys mentioned became bad defenders in the NBA.

[No-Man]

Obi is going to be fine during the RS, he is just a problem in the playoffs, which is obviously a problem, but like that's thinking too many steps ahead esp when he projects as a stud offensively

I think he has some tools though, length/strength, vertical pop, he should be okay-ish as a small ball Center if you drop him back, etc, he is just bad in space/perimeter but with some technique/skill development should be fine as a rim protector

I think he would be more or less neutral during the RS +/-0.5

[getrichordie]

Nobody:

No one on realgm:

Not a single soul in the world:

GetRichOrDie: Amare could actually play defense

I mean... he could for a while... until injuries caught up.

Amar'e defense even at his peak is like Toppin. He was sniff as an old rod in space. Most his defense was based on getting steals and blocks which will be the case for Toppin too but how the defense is in the modern NBA, both are kinda outta touch due to their lack of lateral mobility.

Obi is getting a worse rap on defense than he deserve. I've heard clowns compare him to Jahlil Okafor on that end. Obi to me will likely top out at below average on that end but no way is he Okafor. He's superior in so many ways. Defensive fundamentals, communication, defensive playmaking skills, good time reaction skills, knows where he's suppose to be. He's more Jared Dudley without the lateral quickness more than scrubs plus Okafor was a very good post defender out of Duke even if he was awful at everything else on that end.

Also Obi was a big part of the reason Dayton defense was very good this year. Negative defenders are almost always negatives in college for their team's defense. Obi favorably compares impact wise on defense to Dwight Powell, Larry Nance Jr. And Noah Vonleh as a prospect for defensive impact. None of those guys mentioned became bad defenders in the NBA.

Gonna disagree here. Stoudemire’s D was above average for years before injury issues took him down a notch. Yeah, he had his gaffes on that end and had some head-scratching moments but he wasn't a negative defender. In playoffs, he got exposed, but RS, was fine. Stats back this up.

I have Toppin being bottom 30 percentile on defense. He’s just not very good on that end and his high hips hurt him here. One thing to have an impact on a weak conference. Another thing to have one in NBA. And I’m not sure Toppin is the reason why Dayton had success on defense as Toppin graded out in the 30th percentile on defense... Pretty sure they just had a cake schedule.

When you get some time, go read the defensive write ups on Toppin on the Stepien. It’s pretty illuminating for the 22 year old.

[King Ken]

I mean... he could for a while... until injuries caught up.

Amar'e defense even at his peak is like Toppin. He was sniff as an old rod in space. Most his defense was based on getting steals and blocks which will be the case for Toppin too but how the defense is in the modern NBA, both are kinda outta touch due to their lack of lateral mobility.

Obi is getting a worse rap on defense than he deserve. I've heard clowns compare him to Jahlil Okafor on that end. Obi to me will likely top out at below average on that end but no way is he Okafor. He's superior in so many ways. Defensive fundamentals, communication, defensive playmaking skills, good time reaction skills, knows where he's suppose to be. He's more Jared Dudley without the lateral quickness more than scrubs plus Okafor was a very good post defender out of Duke even if he was awful at everything else on that end.

Also Obi was a big part of the reason Dayton defense was very good this year. Negative defenders are almost always negatives in college for their team's defense. Obi favorably compares impact wise on defense to Dwight Powell, Larry Nance Jr. And Noah Vonleh as a prospect for defensive impact. None of those guys mentioned became bad defenders in the NBA.

Gonna disagree here. Stoudemire’s D was above average for years before injury issues took him down a notch. Stats back this up.

I have Toppin being bottom 30 percentile on defense. He’s just not very good on that end. One thing to have an impact on a weak conference. Another thing to have one in NBA. And I’m not sure Toppin is the reason why Dayton had success on defense as Toppin graded out in the 30th percentile on defense... Pretty sure they just had a cake schedule.

When you get some time, go read the defensive write ups on Toppin on the Stepien. It’s pretty illuminating for the 22 year old.

I watched a lot of Suns Basketball. Hell, I just watched several games in full recently when Amar'e was in year 3. His defense was extremely similar to Toppin from a mobility stance. Hell, Toppin is smarter going by the film.

Dayton plays a good schedule similar to Gonzaga but the A-10 is stronger than the WCC so he plays a stronger conference schedule. To say he probably had a cake schedule is simply not doing your homework well enough.

Spencer is a great guy, he also wrote this as his high-end:

above average defender if interior defense improves, improves footwork and technique on perimeter to reach average levels in space

I am not sure how you have him as part of the 30 percentile. His team defense metrics on that end are good.

DWS/40 is .094 DRTG 90.3 DBPM 3.3. None of this is marks of a 30 percentile defender. This is actually part of the 70 percentile.

I really wish we would chill with the 22 yo stuff. His maturation process at this stage is more in line with a 19-20-year-old than a 22-year-old. He's only been this tall for a year. He's grown every year since his Junior year of HS where he was 6'2 180. This is why you can't judge an older prospect like Siakam the same way you can judge one like Tyler Hansbrough. Experience, Basketball maturity and feel for the game varies with different players.

[getrichordie]

Amar'e defense even at his peak is like Toppin. He was sniff as an old rod in space. Most his defense was based on getting steals and blocks which will be the case for Toppin too but how the defense is in the modern NBA, both are kinda outta touch due to their lack of lateral mobility.

Obi is getting a worse rap on defense than he deserve. I've heard clowns compare him to Jahlil Okafor on that end. Obi to me will likely top out at below average on that end but no way is he Okafor. He's superior in so many ways. Defensive fundamentals, communication, defensive playmaking skills, good time reaction skills, knows where he's suppose to be. He's more Jared Dudley without the lateral quickness more than scrubs plus Okafor was a very good post defender out of Duke even if he was awful at everything else on that end.

Also Obi was a big part of the reason Dayton defense was very good this year. Negative defenders are almost always negatives in college for their team's defense. Obi favorably compares impact wise on defense to Dwight Powell, Larry Nance Jr. And Noah Vonleh as a prospect for defensive impact. None of those guys mentioned became bad defenders in the NBA.

Gonna disagree here. Stoudemire’s D was above average for years before injury issues took him down a notch. Stats back this up.

I have Toppin being bottom 30 percentile on defense. He’s just not very good on that end. One thing to have an impact on a weak conference. Another thing to have one in NBA. And I’m not sure Toppin is the reason why Dayton had success on defense as Toppin graded out in the 30th percentile on defense... Pretty sure they just had a cake schedule.

When you get some time, go read the defensive write ups on Toppin on the Stepien. It’s pretty illuminating for the 22 year old.

I watched a lot of Suns Basketball. Hell, I just watched several games in full recently when Amar'e was in year 3. His defense was extremely similar to Toppin from a mobility stance. Hell, Toppin is smarter going by the film.

Dayton plays a good schedule similar to Gonzaga but the A-10 is stronger than the WCC so he plays a stronger conference schedule. To say he probably had a cake schedule is simply not doing your homework well enough.

Spencer is a great guy, he also wrote this as his high-end:

above average defender if interior defense improves, improves footwork and technique on perimeter to reach average levels in space

I am not sure how you have him as part of the 30 percentile. His team defense metrics on that end are good.

DWS/40 is .094 DRTG 90.3 DBPM 3.3. None of this is marks of a 30 percentile defender. This is actually part of the 70 percentile.

I really wish we would chill with the 22 yo stuff. His maturation process at this stage is more in line with a 19-20-year-old than a 22-year-old. He's only been this tall for a year. He's grown every year since his Junior year of HS where he was 6'2 180. This is why you can't judge an older prospect like Siakam the same way you can judge one like Tyler Hansbrough. Experience, Basketball maturity and feel for the game varies with different players.

Fair enough. I'll concede my point on Amare before everyone loses their minds...

According to KenPom, Dayton played the 105th hardest schedule (203rd hardest NCSOS)... (103rd OppO/105th OppD)

I'd say that's pretty cake relative to other prospects coming out... Never said Gonzaga had a hard schedule so not sure how that got lumped in there, but good to know?