Ben Saraf

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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#101 » by MettaWorldPanda » Fri May 30, 2025 9:39 pm

arusinov wrote:Ok. Here's my full scale Israeli Saraf's "stan" rant trying to explain why Saraf's achievements in Israel U18 and in Ulm are really under-appreciated

First, Ulm. German league is somewhat weaker (but not that much) than French league and certainly weaker than Spanish ACB. But specifically this season Ulm is different story that "generally" German league team. They played also in EuroCup (very good competition, maybe 2nd best outside NBA after EuorLeague) and looked rather good finishing on 50% 9w/9l , they finished 2nd in German BBL regular season just 1 win behind Bayern which is above average EuroLeague team, they also last week swept 3:0 in QF Alba Berlin (which technically was EuroLeague team, but the dead worst one to say the truth). Being the leader of good pro-team is very important and extremely rare for 18 y/o, for example in Killian Hayes' season in Ulm (which had similar to Saraf stats, with somewhat more efficient scoring) they were not good at all team - also played in EuroCup but was horrible really worst team there - 1w/9l, and below average team in German league.

Now about stats. Over 50 games for Ulm in all competitions he averages 12.4 on 46 / 31 / 75 split, 4.3 ast. He is now the best scorer of the team (which has very balanced scoring among their best players) together with 2020 51th pick Justian Jessup, and leads team by large margin in assists. He is playing almost exclusively PG, and the team really has no other good option at #1. Plummer and Weidemann are smallish guards, quick and good ball-handlers - but they can't pass at all, both averaging ~ 2 ast with horrible ast/to ratio. And Jessup can distribute ball really good - but he is 6'7" wing which is rather slow and average ball handler. The only player of Ulm which is quick (Saraf is not slow at all, he just switches speed all the time, but his top gear is actually quick enough), the team's best ball handler, and clearly best distributor is Saraf, and he has huge impact on their success this season. Unlike what is said about him - Saraf is not bad shooter. He is good midrange pull-up shooter and his 3P shot success was low in Ulm to some level because the way they played - they have a lot good 3P shooters, and no good penetrators/distributors except Saraf so very large percent of his 3P shots was very hard 3P pull-ups to bail out stuck possession.


Speaking about Euro U18 where Saraf got MVP award. Usually MVP in such tournaments is the best player of winner team. It was not the case here. Israel lost in 2xOT to Serbia in semifinal, Saraf still got MVP award because he clearly was the best player in the field which included Traore, Essengue, Kasparas Jakucionis, Hugo Gonzales and others. It was probably the best performance of any player in any "age-category" Euro championship ... ever. Saraf averaged 28.1 pts(45 / 36 / 76 split ) , 5.0 rbs, 5.1 ast and 4 stl. No one scored 28+ ppg since 1998. No one scored more than Saraf since 1980s.

It's really weird how underrated and underappreciated Saraf is. If your favorite team has pick after #15 - they should take Ben Saraf

Great post. I’ve been a big advocate on the Heat board for us to take him with pick 20.

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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#102 » by SNPA » Sat May 31, 2025 2:33 am

MettaWorldPanda wrote:
arusinov wrote:Ok. Here's my full scale Israeli Saraf's "stan" rant trying to explain why Saraf's achievements in Israel U18 and in Ulm are really under-appreciated

First, Ulm. German league is somewhat weaker (but not that much) than French league and certainly weaker than Spanish ACB. But specifically this season Ulm is different story that "generally" German league team. They played also in EuroCup (very good competition, maybe 2nd best outside NBA after EuorLeague) and looked rather good finishing on 50% 9w/9l , they finished 2nd in German BBL regular season just 1 win behind Bayern which is above average EuroLeague team, they also last week swept 3:0 in QF Alba Berlin (which technically was EuroLeague team, but the dead worst one to say the truth). Being the leader of good pro-team is very important and extremely rare for 18 y/o, for example in Killian Hayes' season in Ulm (which had similar to Saraf stats, with somewhat more efficient scoring) they were not good at all team - also played in EuroCup but was horrible really worst team there - 1w/9l, and below average team in German league.

Now about stats. Over 50 games for Ulm in all competitions he averages 12.4 on 46 / 31 / 75 split, 4.3 ast. He is now the best scorer of the team (which has very balanced scoring among their best players) together with 2020 51th pick Justian Jessup, and leads team by large margin in assists. He is playing almost exclusively PG, and the team really has no other good option at #1. Plummer and Weidemann are smallish guards, quick and good ball-handlers - but they can't pass at all, both averaging ~ 2 ast with horrible ast/to ratio. And Jessup can distribute ball really good - but he is 6'7" wing which is rather slow and average ball handler. The only player of Ulm which is quick (Saraf is not slow at all, he just switches speed all the time, but his top gear is actually quick enough), the team's best ball handler, and clearly best distributor is Saraf, and he has huge impact on their success this season. Unlike what is said about him - Saraf is not bad shooter. He is good midrange pull-up shooter and his 3P shot success was low in Ulm to some level because the way they played - they have a lot good 3P shooters, and no good penetrators/distributors except Saraf so very large percent of his 3P shots was very hard 3P pull-ups to bail out stuck possession.


Speaking about Euro U18 where Saraf got MVP award. Usually MVP in such tournaments is the best player of winner team. It was not the case here. Israel lost in 2xOT to Serbia in semifinal, Saraf still got MVP award because he clearly was the best player in the field which included Traore, Essengue, Kasparas Jakucionis, Hugo Gonzales and others. It was probably the best performance of any player in any "age-category" Euro championship ... ever. Saraf averaged 28.1 pts(45 / 36 / 76 split ) , 5.0 rbs, 5.1 ast and 4 stl. No one scored 28+ ppg since 1998. No one scored more than Saraf since 1980s.

It's really weird how underrated and underappreciated Saraf is. If your favorite team has pick after #15 - they should take Ben Saraf

Great post. I’ve been a big advocate on the Heat board for us to take him with pick 20.

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I don’t get this draft. How is this guy not higher in mocks? Hell, I’ve seen him in the second round. :crazy:
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#103 » by FarBeyondDriven » Sat May 31, 2025 5:19 am

I think he shops for his scarfs at the same store as Nikola Topic. Lots of neck with this boy. I think I recall the international combine sometime in the beginning of June last year so I imagine we'll see that again. I don't remember if we got measurements for everyone but Givony may have tweeted out the standouts. Measurements are going to be huge for these guys so it'd be nice to know.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#104 » by arusinov » Sat May 31, 2025 5:44 am

FarBeyondDriven wrote:I think he shops for his scarfs at the same store as Nikola Topic. Lots of neck with this boy. I think I recall the international combine sometime in the beginning of June last year so I imagine we'll see that again. I don't remember if we got measurements for everyone but Givony may have tweeted out the standouts. Measurements are going to be huge for these guys so it'd be nice to know.


I don't know about Saraf and Essengue participation in combine or any workouts. If Ulm wins semifinal series which starts tomorrow, their season can continues literally to the day of draft as 5th game in finals (if will be required) is scheduled on June 26.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#105 » by babyjax13 » Sat May 31, 2025 7:43 am

I really like the Miami fit. I've had him mocked there a while. Dragic had such success there and Saraf is reminiscent of him in play style.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#106 » by juanc » Wed Jun 4, 2025 10:53 am

Call me crazy but I think that Sarad or Penda end up being the best euro from this draft class. He really is the new age Goran :)
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#107 » by SeattleJazzFan » Wed Jun 4, 2025 10:02 pm

i have saraf ahead of kasparas.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#108 » by Chi town » Thu Jun 5, 2025 12:39 am

SeattleJazzFan wrote:i have saraf ahead of kasparas.


Not really surprised. Tell me what you are seeing and why!
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#109 » by arusinov » Thu Jun 5, 2025 7:01 am

Chi town wrote:
SeattleJazzFan wrote:i have saraf ahead of kasparas.


Not really surprised. Tell me what you are seeing and why!


Well, could anyone show me Kasparas doing something like this ?

https://streamable.com/psh220

And before anyone starts with "weak G-BBL competition" - what ever you think about German league, it's not G-BBL, but EuroCup highlight. The team in white is Hapoel Tel-Aviv which eventually won EuroCup this season, and #17 which Saraf moves around is Marcus Foster ( 2× First-team All-Big East - 2017 & 2018 , Second-team All-Big 12 - 2014, FIBA BCL top scorer and FIBA BCL second team 2023)
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#110 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 2:19 pm

That is a rim grazing dunk at 6-5 with a wideopen runway to the basket... I mean don't everyone move him up 10 spots all at the same time lol
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#111 » by greg4012 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 2:47 pm

JMAC3 wrote:That is a rim grazing dunk at 6-5 with a wideopen runway to the basket... I mean don't everyone move him up 10 spots all at the same time lol


Proceeds to check Kasparas' dunk numbers from this season...
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#112 » by arusinov » Fri Jun 6, 2025 5:00 pm

JMAC3 wrote:That is a rim grazing dunk at 6-5 with a wideopen runway to the basket... I mean don't everyone move him up 10 spots all at the same time lol


Well, it's not about "Saraf is elite athlete", it's about: Saraf is very solid athlete, much much better athlete than for example Kasparas.
Here several things about this clip:

1. Level of competition he faces in this very important game (Ulm lost close game - and win would get them to EuroCup playoffs). Eventual EuroCup winner Hapoel Tel-Aviv features Johnathan Motley (1st team Big-12, 3x 2nd team G-League, several stints in NBA), Antonio Blakeney (2nd team SEC, 2nd team G-league, played season and half for Bulls), Marcus Foster ( 2nd team All-Big 12, 2x 1st team All-Big East, 2nd team FIBA BCL), Ish Wainright (All-Defensive Team Big-12, played over 100 games in NBA for Suns and Blazers), Bruno Caboclo (20th pick in 2014 draft, played NBA / G-league for 6 seasons), Joe Ragland ( 1st team MVC, 2nd team Greek league, all Adriatic league team), Yam Madar (47th pick in 2020 draft). It's without doubt EuroLeague level team. No one in this draft faced such level of competition as important rotation player except Traore (and in most cases he did - he failed spectacularly) and in this close loss 90:97 Saraf scored 17 pts on 8/13 FG, +/- +7 (well he also had 2ast/4to).

2.Saraf is defended by experienced player with a lot accomplishments to his name. Saraf uses his extremely rare for teenager ability to manipulate defender and when Foster is momentously distracted he makes step (which is not slow at all when he needs it) to get away from him.

3.Then he has open line to basket - but it's still not wide open dunk. There's player which comes to help to the basket. Yes, this player is Yam Madar which is really smallish guy, but find me one case when Jakucionis or Topic for this matter went for dunk when there's anyone waiting there.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#113 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 5:07 pm

arusinov wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:That is a rim grazing dunk at 6-5 with a wideopen runway to the basket... I mean don't everyone move him up 10 spots all at the same time lol


Well, it's not about "Saraf is elite athlete", it's about: Saraf is very solid athlete, much much better athlete than for example Kasparas.
Here several things about this clip:

1. Level of competition he faces in this very important game (Ulm lost close game - and win would get them to EuroCup playoffs). Eventual EuroCup winner Hapoel Tel-Aviv features Johnathan Motley (1st team Big-12, 3x 2nd team G-League, several stints in NBA), Antonio Blakeney (2nd team SEC, 2nd team G-league, played season and half for Bulls), Marcus Foster ( 2nd team All-Big 12, 2x 1st team All-Big East, 2nd team FIBA BCL), Ish Wainright (All-Defensive Team Big-12, played over 100 games in NBA for Suns and Blazers), Bruno Caboclo (20th pick in 2014 draft, played NBA / G-league for 6 seasons), Joe Ragland ( 1st team MVC, 2nd team Greek league, all Adriatic league team), Yam Madar (47th pick in 2020 draft). It's without doubt EuroLeague level team. No one in this draft faced such level of competition as important rotation player except Traore (and in most cases he did - he failed spectacularly) and in this close loss 90:97 Saraf scored 17 pts on 8/13 FG, +/- +7 (well he also had 2ast/4to).

2.Saraf is defended by experienced player with a lot accomplishments to his name. Saraf uses his extremely rare for teenager ability to manipulate defender and when Foster is momentously distracted he makes step (which is not slow at all when he needed) to get away from him.

3.Then he has open line to basket - but it's still not wide open dunk. There's player which comes to help to the basket. Yes, this player is Yam Madar which is really smallish guy, but find me one case when Jakucionis or Topic for this matter went for dunk when there's anyone waiting there.


Holy lot of words for one unimpressive dunk.
Where do you have Saraf ranked in this class?
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#114 » by arusinov » Fri Jun 6, 2025 5:14 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
arusinov wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:That is a rim grazing dunk at 6-5 with a wideopen runway to the basket... I mean don't everyone move him up 10 spots all at the same time lol


Well, it's not about "Saraf is elite athlete", it's about: Saraf is very solid athlete, much much better athlete than for example Kasparas.
Here several things about this clip:

1. Level of competition he faces in this very important game (Ulm lost close game - and win would get them to EuroCup playoffs). Eventual EuroCup winner Hapoel Tel-Aviv features Johnathan Motley (1st team Big-12, 3x 2nd team G-League, several stints in NBA), Antonio Blakeney (2nd team SEC, 2nd team G-league, played season and half for Bulls), Marcus Foster ( 2nd team All-Big 12, 2x 1st team All-Big East, 2nd team FIBA BCL), Ish Wainright (All-Defensive Team Big-12, played over 100 games in NBA for Suns and Blazers), Bruno Caboclo (20th pick in 2014 draft, played NBA / G-league for 6 seasons), Joe Ragland ( 1st team MVC, 2nd team Greek league, all Adriatic league team), Yam Madar (47th pick in 2020 draft). It's without doubt EuroLeague level team. No one in this draft faced such level of competition as important rotation player except Traore (and in most cases he did - he failed spectacularly) and in this close loss 90:97 Saraf scored 17 pts on 8/13 FG, +/- +7 (well he also had 2ast/4to).

2.Saraf is defended by experienced player with a lot accomplishments to his name. Saraf uses his extremely rare for teenager ability to manipulate defender and when Foster is momentously distracted he makes step (which is not slow at all when he needed) to get away from him.

3.Then he has open line to basket - but it's still not wide open dunk. There's player which comes to help to the basket. Yes, this player is Yam Madar which is really smallish guy, but find me one case when Jakucionis or Topic for this matter went for dunk when there's anyone waiting there.


Holy lot of words for one unimpressive dunk.
Where do you have Saraf ranked in this class?


Once again - find me one better dunk by Jakucionis or Topic or, you know - even Traore.
He should be rated higher than Traore and Jakucionis. I don't claim to know enough about most of NCAA guards which I didn't see much - basing on Saraf's accomplishments and abilities in comparison to other European prospects now and in past - above #15.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#115 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 5:22 pm

arusinov wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
arusinov wrote:
Well, it's not about "Saraf is elite athlete", it's about: Saraf is very solid athlete, much much better athlete than for example Kasparas.
Here several things about this clip:

1. Level of competition he faces in this very important game (Ulm lost close game - and win would get them to EuroCup playoffs). Eventual EuroCup winner Hapoel Tel-Aviv features Johnathan Motley (1st team Big-12, 3x 2nd team G-League, several stints in NBA), Antonio Blakeney (2nd team SEC, 2nd team G-league, played season and half for Bulls), Marcus Foster ( 2nd team All-Big 12, 2x 1st team All-Big East, 2nd team FIBA BCL), Ish Wainright (All-Defensive Team Big-12, played over 100 games in NBA for Suns and Blazers), Bruno Caboclo (20th pick in 2014 draft, played NBA / G-league for 6 seasons), Joe Ragland ( 1st team MVC, 2nd team Greek league, all Adriatic league team), Yam Madar (47th pick in 2020 draft). It's without doubt EuroLeague level team. No one in this draft faced such level of competition as important rotation player except Traore (and in most cases he did - he failed spectacularly) and in this close loss 90:97 Saraf scored 17 pts on 8/13 FG, +/- +7 (well he also had 2ast/4to).

2.Saraf is defended by experienced player with a lot accomplishments to his name. Saraf uses his extremely rare for teenager ability to manipulate defender and when Foster is momentously distracted he makes step (which is not slow at all when he needed) to get away from him.

3.Then he has open line to basket - but it's still not wide open dunk. There's player which comes to help to the basket. Yes, this player is Yam Madar which is really smallish guy, but find me one case when Jakucionis or Topic for this matter went for dunk when there's anyone waiting there.


Holy lot of words for one unimpressive dunk.
Where do you have Saraf ranked in this class?


Once again - find me one better dunk by Jakucionis or Topic or, you know - even Traore.
He should be rated higher than Traore and Jakucionis. I don't claim to know enough about most of NCAA guards which I didn't see much - basing on Saraf's accomplishments and abilities in comparison to other European prospects now and in past - above #15.


Nobody is changing his draft status on this weak dunk though, that is the point. How many dunks total does Saraf have this year? If anything the argument is probably none of them are great vertical athletes- which is why most people aren't even considering that a distinguisher between those 3-4 prospects.

Also, it is funny how you say don't say it is because "Weak BBL League" but then spend 7 lines of words trying to convince we should be impressed because of the competition.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#116 » by arusinov » Fri Jun 6, 2025 5:52 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
arusinov wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Holy lot of words for one unimpressive dunk.
Where do you have Saraf ranked in this class?


Once again - find me one better dunk by Jakucionis or Topic or, you know - even Traore.
He should be rated higher than Traore and Jakucionis. I don't claim to know enough about most of NCAA guards which I didn't see much - basing on Saraf's accomplishments and abilities in comparison to other European prospects now and in past - above #15.


Nobody is changing his draft status on this weak dunk though, that is the point. How many dunks total does Saraf have this year? If anything the argument is probably none of them are great vertical athletes- which is why most people aren't even considering that a distinguisher between those 3-4 prospects.

Also, it is funny how you say don't say it is because "Weak BBL League" but then spend 7 lines of words trying to convince we should be impressed because of the competition.


How many dunks? I would say well over 20 including Euro U18 and Ulm. He dunks a lot in comparison to most European guards. Yes, mostly open dunks in fact breaks but still. Here's 2 dunks in one game for example in semifinal game in G-BBL



He's not great "great vertical athletes" but he's comfortable with moving up around basket unlike Kasparas - and overall he is clearly more athletic finisher than Jakucionis or Topic.

Now. I'm not sure what do you mean... I personally think that G-BBL even if not as good as ACB and French league (and maybe trending downward a bit) is still much better competition than any "power league" in NCAA, but it's something which many question so I used clip from EuroCup where he plays against top-20 team in the world outside NBA.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#117 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 6:32 pm

arusinov wrote:
Once again - find me one better dunk by Jakucionis or Topic or, you know - even Traore.
He should be rated higher than Traore and Jakucionis. I don't claim to know enough about most of NCAA guards which I didn't see much - basing on Saraf's accomplishments and abilities in comparison to other European prospects now and in past - above #15.


If you read any Saraf scouting report it talks about him being a poor athlete, so to me some weak dunks at 6-5 don't matter.

Jaku is also a poor athlete, but he is a better shooter of the basketball than Saraf which is the main reason he is over him. This is the case if you look at both FT% and 3pt% over this season and previous seasons. Outside of that they are both nifty passers and have plus size. Hard to find what Saraf is better at to make a case he is the better player.

Same with Topic, his ft% was elite and he had stretches where he shot the ball really well in ANGT and Serbian League for OKK Belegrad. He also was more productive averaging 18.6 ppg and 7apg for Mega, basically making his case for League MVP before getting hurt. Saraf is averaging 11.5 ppg and 3.9 apg for ULM, so less productive and less optimism around his shooting longterm.

Traore is basically putting up the same numbers in the French league as Saraf is in the German League. Traore has had big time games as well which is impressive vs better competition in the French League. I also think Traore is a better playmaking and he is another level quicker and faster than Saraf.

I think in general both Saraf and Essengue would have been less featured if they both played in French Pro league this year, which is why they probably chose to play for ULM vs weaker competition. Essengue at least has more physical tools that I think are easy to project him in the NBA with his size and athleticism. Saraf profiles more as a backup pg with flare to me as he struggles to shoot, doesn't project as a high end defender and his best attribute is his passing.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#118 » by arusinov » Fri Jun 6, 2025 6:57 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
arusinov wrote:
Once again - find me one better dunk by Jakucionis or Topic or, you know - even Traore.
He should be rated higher than Traore and Jakucionis. I don't claim to know enough about most of NCAA guards which I didn't see much - basing on Saraf's accomplishments and abilities in comparison to other European prospects now and in past - above #15.


If you read any Saraf scouting report it talks about him being a poor athlete, so to me some weak dunks at 6-5 don't matter.

Jaku is also a poor athlete, but he is a better shooter of the basketball than Saraf which is the main reason he is over him. This is the case if you look at both FT% and 3pt% over this season and previous seasons. Outside of that they are both nifty passers and have plus size. Hard to find what Saraf is better at to make a case he is the better player.

Same with Topic, his ft% was elite and he had stretches where he shot the ball really well in ANGT and Serbian League for OKK Belegrad. He also was more productive averaging 18.6 ppg and 7apg for Mega, basically making his case for League MVP before getting hurt. Saraf is averaging 11.5 ppg and 3.9 apg for ULM, so less productive and less optimism around his shooting longterm.

Traore is basically putting up the same numbers in the French league as Saraf is in the German League. Traore has had big time games as well which is impressive vs better competition in the French League. I also think Traore is a better playmaking and he is another level quicker and faster than Saraf.

I think in general both Saraf and Essengue would have been less featured if they both played in French Pro league this year, which is why they probably chose to play for ULM vs weaker competition. Essengue at least has more physical tools that I think are easy to project him in the NBA with his size and athleticism. Saraf profiles more as a backup pg with flare to me as he struggles to shoot, doesn't project as a high end defender and his best attribute is his passing.


Yes. There's narrative that says "poor athlete" - so let's just ignore that Saraf is go-to ISO-scorer of good pro-team and actually can dunk with ease unlike Jakucionis.

It's even questionable whether Jakucionis is better shooter. On Euro U18 Saraf had 36% vs his 32% on same 3P volume while Saraf scored overall some 9 ppg more). Jakucionis is not much better for this season too: 31.8% vs 30.3% Saraf - and I would claim Saraf played against much better competition, and a lot more games which caused a lot fatigue.

Jakucionis is also in fact worse distributer as he is extremely turnover prone. Saraf has some turnovers problem, Jakucionis is turnovers machine. Both had same 5.3 ast per game in Euro U18. It's just that Saraf lost 2.4 per game, and Kasparas - 4.4. It's basically same for him in NCAA season too - 4.7 ast / 3.7 tov, Saraf has 4.3 / 2.7 against much better competition.

Traore played for below average team in French league. In French league he scored 11.8 per game but his efficiency was 49.7% ts% while Saraf leads 2nd best team in G-BBL with 12.5 ppg on 56.1 ts% - which went up to 14.8 ppg on 67 ts% in playoff. Saraf is better finisher than Traore, much better ball handler and has elite deceleration and very good body control while much more size.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#119 » by Apoe » Mon Jun 9, 2025 2:56 pm

Saraf at the absolute bare minimum should go lottery. Seen him at fiba youth tournaments and live in Germany. He just makes the right play. In Eurocup at 19 he was one of the most fun and impactful players. If he is there at 14 the Spurs will and should really pick him, Coward or Maluach depending who is still there imo. Imagine OKC getting him. He is better than Traore and has more upside.
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Re: Ben Saraf 

Post#120 » by SeattleJazzFan » Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:06 pm

Chi town wrote:
SeattleJazzFan wrote:i have saraf ahead of kasparas.


Not really surprised. Tell me what you are seeing and why!


waste of time. it's not as if i'm going to convert/convince you.

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