Luka Doncic

[SportsGuy8]

and one last post from me to put things in perspective, then im done:

L-E-B-R-O-N J-A-M-E-S - the second best player in the world since the game of basketball is played, THE ULTIMATE ATHLETE, and the personification of ONE MAN DOING IT ALL, the pinnacle of COURT VISION, and carrying a team was averaging 7.4 REBOUNDS 6.8 ASSIST and 25,3 POINTS PER GAME last season

and tell me who in HIS RIGHT MIND would be claiming LUKA DONCIC will be comming anywhere near those mans stats !?!?
and since my PREDICTED claim his ceiling is 15-5-5 is selling him low, THINK AGAIN! LEBRON JAMES 25-7-7 CANT BE LUKA DONCICS ceiling! not in your wettest dreams. so deal with my 15-5-5 or cry later

1. He CAN someday average more assists per game simply because he's going to be looking to pass more than LeBron. LeBron could have averaged over 10 APG EASILY if he wanted ...
2. LeBron never really had a special knack for rebounds, if he had it, he could have averaged double digits quite easily.
3. Some random examples:
- Rubio averages close to 5 RPG per36, even though he's much smaller, has lesser athletic ability and is not as strong as Doncic (and nowhere near as strong as Doncic is going to be in a couple years).
- Andre Miller's career per36 stats are 14.6 PPG, 7.6 APG, 4.3 RPG, while being both height and shooting challenged.
- Paul Pierce averaged like 25, 6.5 and 5 in his prime. If he looked to score a bit less, he probably could have gotten to like 20-7-7.

Now, keep something else in mind. Teams are starting to see a major benefit that comes from a player grabbing a rebound, then immediately starting to push the basketball to quickly create something on the other end before the defense becomes set. Teams are starting to highly value players who are able to do that and Doncic is definitely one of RARE FEW of such players.

If he gets the right coach, it's quite possible his team's plan is going to be for the big men to box out to allow Doncic to do his thing, blowing up his numbers ...

Bottom line:
- 7 APG more than possible (in the right team/system, obviously)
- 7 RPG also more than possible
- 25 PPG highly unlikely, though; that's really, REALLY hard to average if someone's not a complete black-hole

[narcolepsy]

But why would "he wont be able to improve" be the default mindset when discussing Doncic? You could say that about any prospect and all debates would be completely pointless. Just because he's already playing against the best possible competition instead of U18, that doesnt mean he can't improve any further. He's got a lot of room for growth.

I dont think any other prospect, even from this years draft, would be scoring 10+ ppg in Euroleague on this RM team in 20 minutes. Just dont see it. I hope he gets more minutes next year and starts being more aggressive on offense when it comes to scoring, it feels like he's always looking to pass even when he's got a decent chance to score himself.
Ofcourse you could say its because thats his role, since Llull is usually more oriented in scoring and Luka's job is to get others involved. Or maybe he's just not that confident yet.

[pacersGM]

Bottom line:
- 7 APG more than possible (in the right team/system, obviously)
- 7 RPG also more than possible
- 25 PPG highly unlikely, though; that's really, REALLY hard to average if someone's not a complete black-hole

i see that, and i like that ceiling. and respect that. seems reasonable. but the points i dont see.

look at it this way: he is getting alot of rebounds for a 17 year old, he is getting alot of assist for that ago also. so he either gets those by instincts, or by practice workouts, so lets say he will go about 3 up each in the nba to 7&7. that seems cool. but can he go 15 points up? thats the question.

if he can, thats great. if he cant, not many will find a point forward usefull or think of him as a game changer by handling the ball alot of the time, playing 30+ minutes and averaging only 15 points per game and not being a real factor on defense

[pacersGM]

But why would "he wont be able to improve" be the default mindset when discussing Doncic? You could say that about any prospect and all debates would be completely pointless. Just because he's already playing against the best possible competition instead of U18, that doesnt mean he can't improve any further. He's got a lot of room for growth.

I dont think any other prospect, even from this years draft, would be scoring 10+ ppg in Euroleague on this RM team in 20 minutes. Just dont see it. I hope he gets more minutes next year and starts being more aggressive on offense when it comes to scoring, it feels like he's always looking to pass even when he's got a decent chance to score himself.
Ofcourse you could say its because thats his role, since Llull is usually more oriented in scoring and Luka's job is to get others involved. Or maybe he's just not that confident yet.

true. that is a thing. i think scouts would probably love to see if he would come next season and get his points up to about 12, rather then get more rebounds and assist.

[Bob8]

pacersGM, why you bring Lebron and Drazen in play? everything started with your statement, "if doncic with all the hype becomes anywhat near what dragic has become in the nba (all nba player, most improved player ...), he can thank god."

some of us here think, that Doncic, with everything he has showed this year, can become near Dragic without thanking God. I don't believe anybody, except you, ever mentioned Lebron and Doncic in same sentence. maybe I don't totally appreciate what Dragic has done in Nba, but you for sure don't appreciate what Doncic has doing in Real Madrid. and I believe that whoever will draft him won't expect that he won't come anywhere near Dragic.

[SportsGuy8]

Bottom line:
- 7 APG more than possible (in the right team/system, obviously)
- 7 RPG also more than possible
- 25 PPG highly unlikely, though; that's really, REALLY hard to average if someone's not a complete black-hole

i see that, and i like that ceiling. and respect that. seems reasonable. but the points i dont see.

look at it this way: he is getting alot of rebounds for a 17 year old, he is getting alot of assist for that ago also. so he either gets those by instincts, or by practice workouts, so lets say he will go about 3 up each in the nba to 7&7. that seems cool. but can he go 15 points up? thats the question.

if he can, thats great. if he cant, not many will find a point forward usefull or think of him as a game changer by handling the ball alot of the time, playing 30+ minutes and averaging only 15 points per game and not being a real factor on defense

I honestly think that he's going to have an easier time scoring in the NBA, among other things, like catching defensive rebounds, sprinting to the other side (his quickness is lacking, but his speed is very good) then finishing with elite vision ... how can that possibly not be deadly in the NBA?

The numbers are obviously going to highly depend on the type of team he's going to be on. The game is changing and if he gets a D'Antoni type of a coach ... it could really inflate his numbers across the board. On the other hand, if a stacked team like the Celtics selects him, he could end up in a Ginobili type of a role, severely lowering his numbers.

Only the true HOF superstars (like LeBron, Durant) put up superstar numbers no matter what team they're on, but the production of all other stars highly depends on the situation ... As evidenced by the likes of Ray Allen, Chris Bosh, Paul Pierce ...

[pacersGM]

pacersGM, why you bring Lebron and Drazen in play? everything started with your statement, "if doncic with all the hype becomes anywhat near what dragic has become in the nba (all nba player, most improved player ...), he can thank god."

some of us here think, that Doncic, with everything he has showed this year, can become near Dragic without thanking God. I don't believe anybody, except you, ever mentioned Lebron and Doncic in same sentence. maybe I don't totally appreciate what Dragic has done in Nba, but you for sure don't appreciate what Doncic has doing in Real Madrid. and I believe that whoever will draft him won't expect that he won't come anywhere near Dragic.

you dont understand the context in wich i mentioned lebron and doncic.

with that i ment that if "my" 15-5-5 are to low of a ceiling for doncic like some suggested, that means that some think doncics ceiling is nearer to the lebron james stats (25,7,7), wich in my opinion is a hard haaard thing to achieve.

true that probably if going full westbrook tilt, lebron could average a triple double also, but in the same sentance, he works hard to get those 7 and 7, and he is playing some of his most efficient, best basketball in his second to jordan only career.

but such stats demand also the player who averages them that he is in full control of that team. meaning if doncic will be the second or third option on the team, you can say goodbye to such a stat line.

[Bob8]

pacersGM, why you bring Lebron and Drazen in play? everything started with your statement, "if doncic with all the hype becomes anywhat near what dragic has become in the nba (all nba player, most improved player ...), he can thank god."

some of us here think, that Doncic, with everything he has showed this year, can become near Dragic without thanking God. I don't believe anybody, except you, ever mentioned Lebron and Doncic in same sentence. maybe I don't totally appreciate what Dragic has done in Nba, but you for sure don't appreciate what Doncic has doing in Real Madrid. and I believe that whoever will draft him won't expect that he won't come anywhere near Dragic.

you dont understand the context in wich i mentioned lebron and doncic.

with that i ment that if "my" 15-5-5 are to low of a ceiling for doncic like some suggested, that means that some think doncics ceiling is nearer to the lebron james stats (25,7,7), wich in my opinion is a hard haaard thing to achieve.

true that probably if going full westbrook tilt, lebron could average a triple double also, but in the same sentance, he works hard to get those 7 and 7, and he is playing some of his most efficient, best basketball in his second to jordan only career.

but such stats demand also the player who averages them that he is in full control of that team. meaning if doncic will be the second or third option on the team, you can say goodbye to such a stat line.

Leave this fictional 15-5-5 aside. Between anywhat near Dragic with gods help and Lebron are light years. Doncic can be better than Dragic and still very far away from Lebron as a player. It's a bit unfair to say, if someone says he might be better than Dragic, that person thinks Doncic will be new Lebron.

[pacersGM]

Leave this fictional 15-5-5 aside. Between anywhat near Dragic with gods help and Lebron are light years. Doncic can be better than Dragic and still very far away from Lebron as a player. It's a bit unfair to say, if someone says he might be better than Dragic, that person thinks Doncic will be new Lebron.

dude you just dont get it. how is your mind wired that it processed my comments into: doncic will be the next lebron.

i said some of you who arent satisfied with my stats, seem to anticipate lebron stats from doncic (wich 7 reb and 7 assist in the nba would most certainly suggest.
thats me saying, doncic cant develop even near lebron!!

thats where dragic comes into play: there is me saying you should all be thankful if he ever comes close to gorans stats 20 /6/4. but bringing dragic in, seems like an insult to some of you, wich i also dont get. so lets just leave it at that,

[SportsGuy8]

Leave this fictional 15-5-5 aside. Between anywhat near Dragic with gods help and Lebron are light years. Doncic can be better than Dragic and still very far away from Lebron as a player. It's a bit unfair to say, if someone says he might be better than Dragic, that person thinks Doncic will be new Lebron.

dude you just dont get it. how is your mind wired that it processed my comments into: doncic will be the next lebron.

i said some of you who arent satisfied with my stats, seem to anticipate lebron stats from doncic (wich 7 reb and 7 assist in the nba would most certainly suggest.
thats me saying, doncic cant develop even near lebron!!

thats where dragic comes into play: there is me saying you should all be thankful if he ever comes close to gorans stats 20 /6/4. but bringing dragic in, seems like an insult to some of you, wich i also dont get. so lets just leave it at that,

It's not that people see it as some insult, but the thing is, Luka is ALREADY ahead of Goran in passing and rebounding, with Dragic obviously being far ahead in scoring. If Doncic closes the gap in scoring (as many people here expect him to do), there's really not going to be a contest between them.

Luka's rebounding and assists per36 numbers are pretty much unprecedented in Europe. I'm trying to find someone else, but nobody really comes close, not even Diamantidis. And that's with him having to submit to Llull's heroics ... We can only imagine what his assist rates would be without playing next to such a ball-dominant guard.

Yes, Luka's scoring game leaves a lot to be desired, but his combination of rebounding and passing is truly remarkable. It's something Europe has quite frankly never seen (unless I totally missed someone, but I cannot think of anyone).

P.s.: Before someone mentions that it's going to be harder to get rebounds in the NBA, the data doesn't support it. There's a long list of players with extremely transferable rebounding stats. Rebounding is something that seems to transfer extremely well from Europe to NBA. And assists obviously go up, but I don't think I have to mention that.

[pacersGM]

true true. rebs and assist translate well from europe into the nba most of the time.

thats why the scoring is suspect. even if you get it x2 it still means 16 points only. and will nba teams really give him the first or second role and 30 minutes on the team by him providing only 16 points? will teams accept his lower scoring and have him a 1 or 2 option on the team because of his vision (assist ) and ability to rebound the ball? will that be enough? i doubt he will evolve into a killer scorer (wich would mean 20 + points per game) since he shurely wont be a difference maker on the defensive end will the teams be satisfied enough with his point production to lean on him and maybe another guy as the 1-2 punch?

[Mirotic12]

even that above quote is bull... because even as a 18 year old, he is far from what the legends at that age were doing.

- larry bird was scoring freaking 30 ppg in his first ncaa season!
- drazen petrovic was scoring 25 ppg in a rugget no nonsense yugoslavian league at 18!
- nowitzki was scoring 22 ppg in a german league as an 18 year old!
- kukoc was scoring 18 points in the euroleague final game as an 20 year old in 1989!

those stats were averaged freaking 30 years ago, when it was not commong practice to force 17-18 olds into senior clubs to see if they can find the next lebron, bird, petrovic and cash in on him ...

and dont say german league dont count or, yugoslavian league doesnt count. thats bull. if a kid scored 20-25-30 ppg in a good domestic league at 18-19, you will hear about him in the next 10-15 years worldwide.

if a kid is before his time with 8 points 4 rebounds and 4 assist per game at 18 in the euroleague, thats great. but if he stalls at that until 20-21. well we have been there havent we? rubio etc ... and 8 ppg aint that big of a deal neither. as i havent heard of a great great or legendary player who became that by averaging 18 points, 8 and 8. so scoring will be asked of him, no mater where or what he is destined to do.

Larry Bird was age 19-20 his first year of NCAA, so not really accurate to claim that as a comparison to an 18 year old.

Where do you get stats that Drazen was averaging 25 a game in Yugoslav league at age 18? I've never seen any stats from the league prior to the mid 80s.

Dirk wasn't playing in German League at age 18. He was playing in German 2nd division. Quite a difference, especially since that was barely even a pro league then. He also averaged 19 points a game, not 22.

Kukoc was age 20 in the 1989 EuroLeague Final Four, not age 18, so why are comparing age 20 to age 18, and saying it's the same age?

Let's try to keep accuracy here please.

[pacersGM]

Let's try to keep accuracy here please.

i will try to keep accuracy. not shure if i will be able to satisfy you, since you disputed a guy who predicted doncic will average 20 minute per game this season, and you said its at 19,9 minutes so you won. wich is absurd, and levels above my comparisions of a 18 year old doncic to 2 years older legends from totaly different times.

so you do realize that if doncic in 1-2 years is still in real and doesnt average more then 15 points per game, it will be dilusional to still claim that he is on the same level at a young age as the legends you specific think has a chance to be as good as?

and he shure as hell wont average 20 points per game in 2 years in real. i will get back to you then. and i hope you lower your expectations of him until then.

[Mirotic12]

Let's try to keep accuracy here please.

i will try to keep accuracy. not shure if i will be able to satisfy you, since you disputed a guy who predicted doncic will average 20 minute per game this season, and you said its at 19,9 minutes so you won. wich is absurd, and levels above my comparisions of a 18 year old doncic to 2 years older legends from totaly different times.

so you do realize that if doncic in 1-2 years is still in real and doesnt average more then 15 points per game, it will be dilusional to still claim that he is on the same level at a young age as the legends you specific think has a chance to be as good as?

and he shure as hell wont average 20 points per game in 2 years in real. i will get back to you then. and i hope you lower your expectations of him until then.

That's not at all what I said. Please don't skew what others here are saying.

As far as the rest of it..........I never compared him to such players as what you listed there, and never said one thing about him averaging 20 points a game in Real. I never said any of that.

[pacersGM]

As far as the rest of it..........I never compared him to such players as what you listed there, and never said one thing about him averaging 20 points a game in Real. I never said any of that.

then i remembered wrong that you said doncic has the potential to get into the nba hof one time. im sorry for that if that was someone else.

but i would like to hear your take on that minutes prediction for this season. the other guy said last year doncic will play 20-25 minutes this season. and you suposetly said no chance doncic will play 20 minute per game this season? i see he was right on that topic, but i dont see where he is supposetly in the wrong about his claim?

[SportsGuy8]

true true. rebs and assist translate well from europe into the nba most of the time.

thats why the scoring is suspect. even if you get it x2 it still means 16 points only. and will nba teams really give him the first or second role and 30 minutes on the team by him providing only 16 points? will teams accept his lower scoring and have him a 1 or 2 option on the team because of his vision (assist ) and ability to rebound the ball? will that be enough? i doubt he will evolve into a killer scorer (wich would mean 20 + points per game) since he shurely wont be a difference maker on the defensive end will the teams be satisfied enough with his point production to lean on him and maybe another guy as the 1-2 punch?

I also somewhat doubt he's ever going to be a killer scorer, that's why I think it's going to be crucial what type of team is going to pick him. I see superstar potential in him IF he goes to a team where he's eventually going to be "given the keys" (like a mix of D'Antoni's Harden and Nash), but if not, his ceiling could quickly end up being as a borderline All-Star.

However, I do think he has a lot of room and ability of improvement in the scoring department. We also need to keep in mind that he's probably holding back a bit when it comes to scoring. Being such a youngster on the biggest sports club on the planet, Real Madrid, where only winning matters, doesn't really influence rebounding and passing, but when it comes to scoring, I'm sure he's often pulling the brakes, submitting to seniority.

We have only seen a handful of games where he really took over and he looked great, unfortunately, mostly he simply submits to others, mainly Llull. This could change next year ...

[Mirotic12]

As far as the rest of it..........I never compared him to such players as what you listed there, and never said one thing about him averaging 20 points a game in Real. I never said any of that.

then i remembered wrong that you said doncic has the potential to get into the nba hof one time. im sorry for that if that was someone else.

but i would like to hear your take on that minutes prediction for this season. the other guy said last year doncic will play 20-25 minutes this season. and you suposetly said no chance doncic will play 20 minute per game this season? i see he was right on that topic, but i dont see where he is supposetly in the wrong about his claim?

I have no idea if he would be in the HOF one day and neither does anyone else. He's 18 years old. Why would I say something like that?

No, I did not say he wouldn't average 20 minutes a game, I said he wouldn't be getting 20-25 a game. 20-25 isn't the same thing as 20, and that's very obvious. No way in the world was he getting 25 minutes a game average this season. That's what I said and meant. I personally guessed he would probably average like 18-20 a game. But claiming he could average as many as 25 minutes a game in a team like Real was way in the exaggeration territory.

Many of the best players in EuroLeague don't get that much playing time. Regardless, I was right, as he got about 19-20 minutes a game so far in ACB and EuroLeague, and yes, in a 40 minute game, there is a big difference from saying a guy gets 20-25 on average, meaning at least 22-23 a game over the season

Also, again to keep factual here and to clarify, there is no NBA Hall of Fame.

There are two international Halls of Fame for basketball - The Basketball Hall of Fame, and the FIBA Hall of Fame, and numerous Halls of Fame places for national levels, like NCAA Hall of Fame, Italian Basketball Hall of Fame, etc., etc.

But there is no NBA Hall of Fame.

[pacersGM]

No, I did not say he wouldn't average 20 minutes a game, I said he wouldn't be getting 20-25 a game. 20-25 isn't the same thing as 20, and that's very obvious. No way in the world was he getting 25 minutes a game average this season. That's what I said and meant. I personally guessed he would probably average like 18-20 a game. But claiming he could average as many as 25 minutes a game in a team like Real was way in the exaggeration territory.

Many of the best players in EuroLeague don't get that much playing time. Regardless, I was right, as he got about 19-20 minutes a game so far in ACB and EuroLeague, and yes, in a 40 minute game, there is a big difference from saying a guy gets 20-25 on average, meaning at least 22-23 a game over the season

seems to me, you both were right or am i missing someting? say no more. i see that i wont be able to reach your factual accuracy standards, so therefore i apologize in advance.

sorry, i ment the basketball hall of fame, not the fake one (FIBA)

[Mirotic12]

No, I did not say he wouldn't average 20 minutes a game, I said he wouldn't be getting 20-25 a game. 20-25 isn't the same thing as 20, and that's very obvious. No way in the world was he getting 25 minutes a game average this season. That's what I said and meant. I personally guessed he would probably average like 18-20 a game. But claiming he could average as many as 25 minutes a game in a team like Real was way in the exaggeration territory.

Many of the best players in EuroLeague don't get that much playing time. Regardless, I was right, as he got about 19-20 minutes a game so far in ACB and EuroLeague, and yes, in a 40 minute game, there is a big difference from saying a guy gets 20-25 on average, meaning at least 22-23 a game over the season

seems to me, you both were right or am i missing someting? say no more. i see that i wont be able to reach your factual accuracy standards, so therefore i apologize in advance.

sorry, i ment the basketball hall of fame, not the fake one (FIBA)

The FIBA Hall of Fame seems to have a much higher standard than the Basketball Hall of Fame, and it also seems much less political than the Basketball Hall of Fame. It actually seems like a much better accomplishment to make the FIBA one.

[pacersGM]

No, I did not say he wouldn't average 20 minutes a game, I said he wouldn't be getting 20-25 a game. 20-25 isn't the same thing as 20, and that's very obvious. No way in the world was he getting 25 minutes a game average this season. That's what I said and meant. I personally guessed he would probably average like 18-20 a game. But claiming he could average as many as 25 minutes a game in a team like Real was way in the exaggeration territory.

Many of the best players in EuroLeague don't get that much playing time. Regardless, I was right, as he got about 19-20 minutes a game so far in ACB and EuroLeague, and yes, in a 40 minute game, there is a big difference from saying a guy gets 20-25 on average, meaning at least 22-23 a game over the season

seems to me, you both were right or am i missing someting? say no more. i see that i wont be able to reach your factual accuracy standards, so therefore i apologize in advance.

sorry, i ment the basketball hall of fame, not the fake one (FIBA)

The FIBA Hall of Fame seems to have a much higher standard than the Basketball Hall of Fame, and it also seems much less political than the Basketball Hall of Fame. It actually seems like a much better accomplishment to make the FIBA one.

Like you said, that probably just seems to you, since you are very biased towards the euroleague. I mean the second best league in the world