All Things Luka Doncic

[Johnny Firpo]

Physical advantages do give you a higher ceiling.

That's a huge oversimplification.

[Marcus]

Physical advantages do give you a higher ceiling.

That's a huge oversimplification.

If you want to take it in it's rawest form then sure. But if you've been following my input in the conversation I've always mentioned how skills need to be in the area of conversation. In this context yes the kids need to be highly skilled for it to matter because Doncic is ridiculously skilled for his age. But generally speaking the idea of physical advantages gives a player more options in development is true.

Mirotic12 who's one of the biggest advocates for euroleague skill over NBA athleticism mentioned a few pages back that a European team just signed some 7 footer strictly because he was tall and mobile, not knowing if he could play basketball at all. And that's in Europe, so imagine the NBA where that mentality is King. The mindset that Im more likely to teach you skills than I am to teach you how to be a better athlete is not a new concept sir.

[Bob8]

reanimator's concerns about Doncic are legitimate, and are questions everyone should have.

I think the dissonance and disagreement comes from attitude regarding improvement. Some view improvement as a given, others as a longshot. The fact is, whomever the prospect, wherever their continent of origin, improvement is never a given and simply speculation/projection based on current information.

Of what we know, Doncic has proven the most as the highest level of competition relative to his peers. Domestic prospects like Porter and Bagley have much more to prove at a higher level, but also have higher ceilings given their physical advantages.

We cannot assume that anyone is guaranteed improvement on their skills, physical attributes, basketball IQ, etc. We can only judge based on the current production and sample size.

Neither side is guaranteed to progress past their current point. Porter/Bagley may never improve on their middling IQ and skill level, and Doncic may never improve his physical abilities. We can only speculate and project according to our inherent biases.

You're basically saying that anybody with physical advantages has higher ceiling, no matter what how behind is in skills, feeling for the game and basketball IQ, and how unlikely is that they will ever have one. And then begins funny part, not only that people doubt Doncic will improve in physics, they demand he has all skills at this moment and not only that, he has to showed them in much higher levels of the competition. It looks like double standards to me.

Physical advantages do give you a higher ceiling. There's no guarantee you reach them though and I think that's where you're getting confused. Nobody is guaranteed anything, all these kids will need to work hard to reach their potential.

Also who says Doncic needs to show everything now. Mentioning things he should/could add to his game isn't saying it needs to be done by 18.

I mentioned this to you earlier. But this a prime example of if someone doesn't praise Doncic then that translates to you that that person hates the kid. This bias against him is imaginary.

Physical advantages doesn't necessarily give you higher ceiling, but it's true, many think you have higher ceiling. Ceiling is not exactly exact science, it's more like some imagination point, that everyone is seeing different.

And where have you find this hate thing in my post? It looks to me you imagine a lot. It just look strange to me that we should believe how this raw players will develop skills and feeling of the game and we shouldn't believe Doncic will be much better in everything? How many physical superior prospects go bust every year?;)

[Bob8]

I certainly hope he does. I legit fear for some of our posters if he doesn't.

Nice comment. I appreciate your concern, but ...

I actually think a lot of our exchanges are more centered around a misunderstanding of perspective. But if you think it applies to you then I wish you both the best.

But you're sure you know what's the right perspective?
Please don't patronize me.

[Marcus]

You're basically saying that anybody with physical advantages has higher ceiling, no matter what how behind is in skills, feeling for the game and basketball IQ, and how unlikely is that they will ever have one. And then begins funny part, not only that people doubt Doncic will improve in physics, they demand he has all skills at this moment and not only that, he has to showed them in much higher levels of the competition. It looks like double standards to me.

Physical advantages do give you a higher ceiling. There's no guarantee you reach them though and I think that's where you're getting confused. Nobody is guaranteed anything, all these kids will need to work hard to reach their potential.

Also who says Doncic needs to show everything now. Mentioning things he should/could add to his game isn't saying it needs to be done by 18.

I mentioned this to you earlier. But this a prime example of if someone doesn't praise Doncic then that translates to you that that person hates the kid. This bias against him is imaginary.

Physical advantages doesn't give you higher ceiling, but it's true many think you have higher ceiling. Ceiling is not exactly exact science, it's more like some imagination point, that everyone is seeing different.

And where have you find this hate thing in my post? It looks to me you imagine a lot. It just look strange to me that we should believe how this raw players will develop skills and feeling of the game and we shouldn't believe Doncic will be much better in everything? How many physical superior prospects go bust every year?;)

We're saying the same thing in regards to the view point of ceilings so I'll leave that alone.

I'll retract the word hate and replace it with questions. What questions/concerns about Luka's game translating at a superstar level have you been non-combative about? Which posters have you not dismissed in tone because they didn't agree with e with your opinion on Doncic?

Ahhhh I see the problem now. You think we're referring to raw athletes in this conversation. Far from it. The kids in the conversation for top pick with Doncic are all skilled players. Maybe not on his level of skill but skilled nonetheless. Also I ask again because you seem to avoid this question each time. Who said Doncic won't improve at all?

[Stackey]

From left to right:

Gasol 7'1''
Doncic 6'7''
Dragic 6'4''
Shved 6'7''
Bogdanovic 6'6''

[Marcus]

Nice comment. I appreciate your concern, but ...

I actually think a lot of our exchanges are more centered around a misunderstanding of perspective. But if you think it applies to you then I wish you both the best.

But you're sure you know what's the right perspective?
Please don't patronize me.

Wow. Definitely didn't say that either. Didn't say anyone was right or wrong just different.

[Bob8]

Physical advantages do give you a higher ceiling. There's no guarantee you reach them though and I think that's where you're getting confused. Nobody is guaranteed anything, all these kids will need to work hard to reach their potential.

Also who says Doncic needs to show everything now. Mentioning things he should/could add to his game isn't saying it needs to be done by 18.

I mentioned this to you earlier. But this a prime example of if someone doesn't praise Doncic then that translates to you that that person hates the kid. This bias against him is imaginary.

Physical advantages doesn't give you higher ceiling, but it's true many think you have higher ceiling. Ceiling is not exactly exact science, it's more like some imagination point, that everyone is seeing different.

And where have you find this hate thing in my post? It looks to me you imagine a lot. It just look strange to me that we should believe how this raw players will develop skills and feeling of the game and we shouldn't believe Doncic will be much better in everything? How many physical superior prospects go bust every year?;)

We're saying the same thing in regards to the view point of ceilings so I'll leave that alone.

I'll retract the word hate and replace it with questions. What questions/concerns about Luka's game translating at a superstar level have you been non-combative about? Which posters have you not dismissed in tone because they didn't agree with e with your opinion on Doncic?

Ahhhh I see the problem now. You think we're referring to raw athletes in this conversation. Far from it. The kids in the conversation for top pick with Doncic are all skilled players. Maybe not on his level of skill but skilled nonetheless. Also I ask again because you seem to avoid this question each time. Who said Doncic won't improve at all?

For me Bagley and Porter are pretty raw in comparison to Doncic and if you ask me Porter don't look crazy athletic too. For me Porter has a big chance to be a bust, if he will be # 1 pick. What he really has except shooting? Typical role player.

You just read last 15 Reanimator's posts and you will understand.

[XTraderXL]

The photo looks like Shved is 1 inch taller than Bogdanovic and Doncic is taller than Shved. He definitelly looks 6'8''. I know for a fact that Dragic in shoes is at least 6'4'', maybe even a bit taller...

[Bob8]

I actually think a lot of our exchanges are more centered around a misunderstanding of perspective. But if you think it applies to you then I wish you both the best.

But you're sure you know what's the right perspective?
Please don't patronize me.

Wow. Definitely didn't say that either. Didn't say anyone was right or wrong just different.

You don't have to say it. Your interventions and explanations are very telling.

[Johnny Firpo]

If you want to take it in it's rawest form then sure. But if you've been following my input in the conversation I've always mentioned how skills need to be in the area of conversation. In this context yes the kids need to be highly skilled for it to matter because Doncic is ridiculously skilled for his age. But generally speaking the idea of physical advantages gives a player more options in development is true.

Mirotic12 who's one of the biggest advocates for euroleague skill over NBA athleticism mentioned a few pages back that a European team just signed some 7 footer strictly because he was tall and mobile, not knowing if he could play basketball at all. And that's in Europe, so imagine the NBA where that mentality is King. The mindset that Im more likely to teach you skills than I am to teach you how to be a better athlete is not a new concept sir.

I agree with most of this, but you have to realize that elite skills are just as rare as athleticism, maybe more so. For example, the reason why Bird, Nash, Curry, Dirk, etc. succeeded in becoming all-time great players despite being similar athletes to Doncic in terms of explosiveness, and the reason why Jokic will probably do the same, is their immense skill level. I think from a talent standpoint, Doncic belongs in that category, and if that is true - you may or may not agree with me -, he could do the same.

That's why I have a hard time with the "he cannot be a franchise player because of this and that" argument. From an overall talent package, Doncic definitely compares to these all-time greats' young selves. So why would we put a "second option, "mere" All-Star" cap on him? And again, Reanimator uses absolutes. He says he cannot be that, because he has a hole in his game at 18, which is ridiculous.

[Mirotic12]

The photo looks like Shved is 1 inch taller than Bogdanovic and Doncic is taller than Shved. He definitelly looks 6'8''. I know for a fact that Dragic in shoes is at least 6'4'', maybe even a bit taller...

No, he does not, not at least in that photo. Shved and Doncic look the exact same height in that photo, and Shved is clearly standing further away from the camera. On the other hand, Doncic is leaning a bit. The leaning of Doncic, and Shved being further from the camera, probably evens out.

Shved is listed at 6-6 without shoes on in Russia. So based on that photo, Doncic is about 6-7 in shoes, which is exactly the height the Spanish League, FIBA, and EuroLeague list him at.

I've been saying here Doncic is 6-7 to 6-8 in shoes, but in that photo........no, he looks 6-7 in shoes max.

I agree with most of this, but you have to realize that elite skills are just as rare as athleticism, maybe more so. For example, the reason why Bird, Nash, Curry, Dirk, etc. succeeded in becoming all-time great players despite being similar athletes to Doncic in terms of explosiveness, and the reason why Jokic will probably do the same, is their immense skill level. I think from a talent standpoint, Doncic belongs in that category, and if that is true - you may or may not agree with me -, he could do the same.

That's why I have a hard time with the "he cannot be a franchise player because of this and that" argument. From an overall talent package, Doncic definitely compares to these all-time greats' young selves. So why would we put a "second option, "mere" All-Star" cap on him? And again, Reanimator uses absolutes. He says he cannot be that, because he has a hole in his game at 18, which is ridiculous.

Nash and Curry were/are way better athletes than Doncic. Doncic is far slower than either of them. Not even close.

[Marcus]

If you want to take it in it's rawest form then sure. But if you've been following my input in the conversation I've always mentioned how skills need to be in the area of conversation. In this context yes the kids need to be highly skilled for it to matter because Doncic is ridiculously skilled for his age. But generally speaking the idea of physical advantages gives a player more options in development is true.

Mirotic12 who's one of the biggest advocates for euroleague skill over NBA athleticism mentioned a few pages back that a European team just signed some 7 footer strictly because he was tall and mobile, not knowing if he could play basketball at all. And that's in Europe, so imagine the NBA where that mentality is King. The mindset that Im more likely to teach you skills than I am to teach you how to be a better athlete is not a new concept sir.

I agree with most of this, but you have to realize that elite skills are just as rare as athleticism, maybe more so. For example, the reason why Bird, Nash, Curry, Dirk, etc. succeeded in becoming all-time great players despite being similar athletes to Doncic in terms of explosiveness, and the reason why Jokic will probably do the same, is their immense skill level. I think from a talent standpoint, Doncic belongs in that category, and if that is true - you may or may not agree with me -, he could do the same.

That's why I have a hard time with the "he cannot be a franchise player because of this and that" argument. From an overall talent package, Doncic definitely compares to these all-time greats' young selves. So why would we put a "second option, "mere" All-Star" cap on him? And again, Reanimator uses absolutes. He says he cannot be that, because he has a hole in his game at 18, which is ridiculous.

I agree with you about elite skill, I don't think we would be having this conversation if Doncic wasn't as skilled as he is. Not disregarding that at all which is why I and others have stated highest floor in the class. He's never going to be a plus athlete on the freak scale and he doesn't have to be because of his elite skill. It comes down to adaptability. Adding wrinkles to make that skill shine brighter than any athletic prowess he does or doesn't have. Same way these other kids have to learn to play without being the best athlete on the floor for once. My whole point was/is I as a GM or NBA staffer have to believe I can teach this athletic kid with good skills how to catch the skills up enough for his athleticism to take over the rest better than I can teach a kid who's already seeing the game well.

I think Doncic hits the league and adapts his game to what he can comfortably do at that level. I think he adds wrinkles, I think he expands his toolset, I think he takes advantage of the spacing, and I think he does all this really well. Opportunity will be key, whatever role they plug him in will be key, I think a lot of how he develops and what he turns into will be centered around how he's used. If they plug him in as a roleplayer he doesn't strike me as a kid that's going to rock the boat. if they give him the keys then both sides get all their questions answered.

As far as reanimator goes. He's allowed his opinion. Doesn't take away from the legitimacy of his questions. Doncic will prove him right or wrong in time. It's a perspective. I've had run ins with him before as well and he's open to conversation when open dialogue can be had. Hes also willing to admit a misstep if that's the case as well.

[Marcus]

Physical advantages doesn't give you higher ceiling, but it's true many think you have higher ceiling. Ceiling is not exactly exact science, it's more like some imagination point, that everyone is seeing different.

And where have you find this hate thing in my post? It looks to me you imagine a lot. It just look strange to me that we should believe how this raw players will develop skills and feeling of the game and we shouldn't believe Doncic will be much better in everything? How many physical superior prospects go bust every year?;)

We're saying the same thing in regards to the view point of ceilings so I'll leave that alone.

I'll retract the word hate and replace it with questions. What questions/concerns about Luka's game translating at a superstar level have you been non-combative about? Which posters have you not dismissed in tone because they didn't agree with e with your opinion on Doncic?

Ahhhh I see the problem now. You think we're referring to raw athletes in this conversation. Far from it. The kids in the conversation for top pick with Doncic are all skilled players. Maybe not on his level of skill but skilled nonetheless. Also I ask again because you seem to avoid this question each time. Who said Doncic won't improve at all?

For me Bagley and Porter are pretty raw in comparison to Doncic and if you ask me Porter don't look crazy athletic too. For me Porter has a big chance to be a bust, if he will be # 1 pick. What he really has except shooting? Typical role player.

You just read last 15 Reanimator's posts and you will understand.

Yeah that's the biggest question about Porter is his athleticism. His lateral quickness doesn't look good, way to upright on defense, has learned to be economical with his drive because he's not shifty I don't think. Good size. Good jumper though. No defined position is also an issue he needs to figure out.

Bags I think someone said before and I agree with is good not great at a lot of things. Also another kid that has to figure out what he is on the floor right now. Jumper needs consistency, good motor, does a lot of different things and good size. Neither are as well rounded as Doncic so I can understand the perspective.

[Marcus]

But you're sure you know what's the right perspective?
Please don't patronize me.

Wow. Definitely didn't say that either. Didn't say anyone was right or wrong just different.

You don't have to say it. Your interventions and explanations are very telling.

I feel like I mod fairly. If you have issues with me at all my PM box is always open.

[Bob8]

Wow. Definitely didn't say that either. Didn't say anyone was right or wrong just different.

You don't have to say it. Your interventions and explanations are very telling.

I feel like I mod fairly. If you have issues with me at all my PM box is always open.

I haven't. You just have that typical American view on things. To understand what Luka is or could be, you should see bigger picture.

[Marcus]

You don't have to say it. Your interventions and explanations are very telling.

I feel like I mod fairly. If you have issues with me at all my PM box is always open.

I haven't. You just have that typical American view on things. To understand what Luka is or could be, you should see bigger picture.

Lol. Ok sport.

[pacersGM]

I haven't. You just have that typical American view on things. To understand what Luka is or could be, you should see bigger picture.

hey Bob8, do you remember in May, when i tried to make my point that Doncic supporters should be happy and hoping that Luka achieves the stats/status/nba career of Goran Dragic? And most of you megafans took it as an insult.

you said that Dragic hasnt done anything in his euro or nba career, and that Goran is probably Lukas nba floor?

you said he is way below teodosic, spanoulis, scrubis ....

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? I BELIEVE YOU, SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SEES THE FUTURE. THIS IS YOUR POST FROM MAY, DEBATING THE SCRUBBNESS OF GORAN DRAGIC:
--------------------
It will be interesting to see the best Pg/Sg from Europe in last 20 years to play in Eurobasket. I expect Dragic will easy be the best scorer and player of Eurobasket. He should dominate Teo and Llull and maybe Doncic as a rookie will really polish Dragics shoes.
--------------------

you do see the future, i bow before you. but if you wrote the above with sarcasm, that would mean something else

[Bob8]

I haven't. You just have that typical American view on things. To understand what Luka is or could be, you should see bigger picture.

hey Bob8, do you remember in May, when i tried to make my point that Doncic supporters should be happy and hoping that Luka achieves the stats/status/nba career of Goran Dragic? And most of you megafans took it as an insult.

you said that Dragic hasnt done anything in his euro or nba career, and that Goran is probably Lukas nba floor?

you said he is way below teodosic, spanoulis, scrubis ....


BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? I BELIEVE YOU, SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SEES THE FUTURE. THIS IS YOUR POST FROM MAY, DEBATING THE SCRUBBNESS OF GORAN DRAGIC:
--------------------
It will be interesting to see the best Pg/Sg from Europe in last 20 years to play in Eurobasket. I expect Dragic will easy be the best scorer and player of Eurobasket. He should dominate Teo and Llull and maybe Doncic as a rookie will really polish Dragics shoes.
--------------------

you do see the future, i bow before you. but if you wrote the above with sarcasm, that would mean something else

I admit Dragic has great Eurobasket. Much better than I expected. Really great Eurobasket. But do you remember how Teodosic destroyed us in the semis of Eurobasket 2009? We were leading and then in last second he made 3pointer and the game went in overtime? 31 points against us. And I didn't see Teodosic this year? I'm not sure if one year is enough to say someone is better player, especially if other wasn't there.
The other thing is. How many medals has Slovenia won in Fiba championships? Only 1. How many times Dragic played? Many times. And what happened when Doncic played for the first time?
I admit I didn't expect Dragic playing that well. But what about you. Did you expect Doncic to play that well? Being in the best five team of Eurobasket?

[pacersGM]

I admit Dragic has great Eurobasket. Much better than I expected. Really great Eurobasket. But do you remember how Teodosic destroyed us in the semis of Eurobasket 2009? We were leading and then in last second he made 3pointer and the game went in overtime? 31 points against us. And I didn't see Teodosic this year? I'm not sure if one year is enough to say someone is better player, especially if other wasn't there.
The other thing is. How many medals has Slovenia won in Fiba championships? Only 1. How many times Dragic played? Many times. And what happened when Doncic played for the first time?
I admit I didn't expect Dragic playing that well. But what about you. Did you expect Doncic to play that well? Being in the best five team of Eurobasket?

no i didnt expect such stats by doncic, but i didnt put any real meaning to it from the beginning. his play just showed just how far ahead he is from his fellow prospects in terms of maturity, game, but it doesnt chancge the fact, i always project him into the nba enviroment. the only thing that changed in my mind is, that he really gets those rebounds faster, quicker, stronger then i thought in the first place, so the rebounding surprised me indeed.

for you to question how many medals does slovenia have and dragic is just sick. even more if you are slovene. then you would know we are a nation of 2 million. since you tell others to look at the bigger picture, your windows are very narrow in the same sentance, how many european gold medals does teodosic have?

i mean, you and many others underestimated Goran vastly and were insulted when i said doncic can pray to get on his nba level one day. Goran is indeed the second best european point guard of all time. behind only tony parker in my mind. you can take the spanoulises, diamantidis, jasikeviciuses, etc out of the equasion, because they were not on the same level - literaly (euroleague - nba). because of that difference in styles and level of play (europe - nba) there will be questions about doncics ceiling until he actualy plays there (the nba)