2020 NBA Draft II

[getrichordie]

I'm kind of coming around a prospect no one is talking about -- Ethan Thompson out of Oregon State.

Three point shot isn't there yet but I like his overall offensive repertoire. Could see him as a late second flier for someone.

[getrichordie]

Pick 1 to go undrafted:

Cassius Winston
Desmond Bane
Jalen Harris

[greg4012]

understandable , I see a much more realistic path for big O being the same level of high impact big in the league in a couple seasons. he is still getting stronger and slowly which is the right way. he was 275 before the acl and so it is certainly reasonable to see him getting closer to that again if he wants to go full 5. But I think he will be better off as a 4 in the league and is going to open some eyes once he gets some reps there. his skill set was also limited in college by the need for his interior presence.
he needs to improve his passing to become BAM level impact even if it isn't in the same exact way. O is already nearly as explosive off one or two feet and isnt as strong as BAM was...even if he isn't doing highlight windmills and isn't handling the ball like a guard the athleticism is special. after all of that the biggest thing for me is his egg. the man is a bbiq beast for a underrated rim runner with shooting ability you didnt see in college.

The hopeful projection of prospects like this just reminds me of people trying to project every long athletic wing prospect that is somewhat raw to be on a Kawhi trajectory. A lot end up really good. But the story of nearly unprecedented continued NBA development is usually not the common one. It's nearly unprecedented for a reason.

It takes the blend of all of Bam's special traits to make him the player he's becoming. Someone who is quite a bit less explosive, has a bit less handle, just a little shorter, just a little less agile, just has a little less body control is not going to suddenly become Bam even if he makes the unprecedented jump in passing ability that Bam made (which is unprecedented for a reason).

I still see a very intriguing prospect that will be a damn good NBA starter for years. Might even be a slightly more natural scorer than the likes of Bam.

I don't agree the difference in athleticism is accurate. Its obvious bam was stronger at the same age and at the same time did not have O's understanding of the game defensively.
Twist it however suits your taste. O is on the path to be a multiple year all star if he keeps at it and its not based on windmill dunks or guard handles

It's fascinating to me that you don't understand that success based on added athleticism just increases upside. Bam's jump as a player was all due to him showing an expanded BBIQ to the point that he's one of the most cerebral players in the NBA on both sides of the ball. That allowed him to leverage his athletic tools in a way to give himself advantage on a play by play basis.

Unless you think Onyeka is destined to be some Einstein level basketball mind on the court relative to the rest of the NBA (which there is next to no basis for if you watch tape of him breaking down his play), then the delta between Bam's athleticism and size and Onyeka's athleticism and size will surely result in Onyeka being a less successful player.

I know you're hopeful that the Cavs will draft a good prospect in this weak draft, and Onyeka absolutely is one. Still, you need to pump the breaks.

[greg4012]

Nope there is a slight difference in bams mobility when dribbling. The vert and 2nd jump are very similar and o gets more done athletically with less energy due to his iq , he doesnt have to play with the same power to get it done, but its obvious he possesses elite explosive ability as a blocker even if it cant match bams highlight dunks

It's not about Bam's highlight dunks and Bam is clearly the higher IQ player. Bam is way more functionally athletic than Okongwu. It's not really close. How can you not see that?

Your a piece of work man. Keep telling yourself o aint bam , i say he will be better so laugh it up i will get the last laugh

I think more people in this thread would attest that you're the piece of work based on your takes founded in nothing but buzz words that you want to attribute to prospects and refusal to take in what others are saying.

Onyeka is clearly less explosive than Bam. He also seems to have a little less upside as his functional athleticism isn't on the same level as Bam's. He's a looser body that is a little top heavier (muscle) and doesn't have the core strength or lower body base to do some of the things Bam has naturally done his whole life. His upper body and lower body are not as coordinated as Bam's. THat reminds me of the difference between Gobert and Whiteside when it comes to quick movements and absorbing force. Whiteside is like one of those inflated car dealership figures whereas Gobert is stout and moves with intention.

This whole notion that Onyeka is the higher IQ player is also very much unfounded.

[Stillwater]

It's not about Bam's highlight dunks and Bam is clearly the higher IQ player. Bam is way more functionally athletic than Okongwu. It's not really close. How can you not see that?

Your a piece of work man. Keep telling yourself o aint bam , i say he will be better so laugh it up i will get the last laugh

I think more people in this thread would attest that you're the piece of work based on your takes founded in nothing but buzz words that you want to attribute to prospects and refusal to take in what others are saying.

Onyeka is clearly less explosive than Bam. He also seems to have a little less upside as his functional athleticism isn't on the same level as Bam's. He's a looser body that is a little top heavier (muscle) and doesn't have the core strength or lower body base to do some of the things Bam has naturally done his whole life. His upper body and lower body are not as coordinated as Bam's. THat reminds me of the difference between Gobert and Whiteside when it comes to quick movements and absorbing force. Whiteside is like one of those inflated car dealership figures whereas Gobert is stout and moves with intention.

This whole notion that Onyeka is the higher IQ player is also very much unfounded.

Anyway id love to know what your take on bam was before he became relevant. But you dont have that to offer everything being used to compare is based on bam now.He was nowhere near as impressive in college as a basketball player. One more time for the cheap seats...o is so close to the same level of explosive athlete as bam was in college at the same age its not something you can justifiably count as a negative nor should you be so naive as to think the difference
will somehow have made Bams path to being an allstar level big more likely.
They are not the same player you can argue that all day , but the comp as a less than 7 footer with the explosive ability to back it up inside and the body control to guard multiple positions is reasonable.
Did'nt hurt that Bam had Butler and some damn clutch shooters on his unit the year he broke through either. Situation will dictate a lot fir any young players impact.
Okongwu played on a team with poor pick and roll teamates and meh shooters all while still doing what he did.
Os iq is above average for any 1 and done big
Its obvious with his anticipation of plays before they happen so its not unfounded . Go back to your dreaming grandma

[King Ken]

Stillwater, Big O might be the first time I believe we are on the same page with a prospect in awhile. While I don't see him directly being like Bam, I like everyone else find them to be very comparable as prospects and it's hard to see a case where Bam is a better prospect at this stage. Big O is clearly better. To be frank, I believe both had the same ceiling and Big O has a better floor but I never saw Bam getting this good either. That's what makes Bam a tough case. Bam is much better right now than I graded his potential out to be. He hit on his swing skills before I started to add them which is brand new this year.

Bam is much better right now than he was as a prospect.

[greg4012]

Anyway id love to know what your take on bam was before he became relevant. But you dont have that to offer everything being used to compare is based on bam now.

Well, lucky for you, I'm not someone who just spouts nonsense intending for there to be no accountability. So, I actually do have that to offer. Go sit down and have a read.

From July 2017:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1581818&hilit=tristan&start=300#p57126164

Bish you're killing me with the Tristan Thompson comparisons.

Bish pls.

The deeper I go, the scarier it gets. They're really similar, I didn't watch/scout TT much in college but I get a sense of why he went at 4

Firstly, Tristan is a solid NBA starter. So, if that's what Bam turns into I won't complain at all.

WIth that said, while Tristan and Bam did have very similar college stats/impact and were used in a similar role at that level, in just about every way Bam is an upgraded version of TT with regards to upside.

Bam is longer than TT (more than 1 inch taller; more than 1 inch more wingspan)

Bam is bigger and stronger with a frame to add more weight naturally (Bam weighs more now than TT does presently, and 16 pounds heavier than when TT was drafted). It's also worth noting that Bam is leaner and less filled out at his current weight than TT is. Bam will easily be a 260+ pound athlete with the same explosiveness he has now.

Bam is more explosive than TT can ever dream to be. Bam has 3.5 inch greater vert than TT. Bam is clearly a quick-twitch athlete with how he moves, changes directions, etc. While TT has some solid feet to switch on P-n-Rs, Bam's athletic profile is greater in this regard. Bam is a true above-the-rim player. I can't say the same for TT. TT isn't displaying monstrous dunks and running the court like Bam.

So, if you want to say Bam is just another version of TT, please specify that he is a longer, stronger, faster, more explosive and agile version of TT.

TT has no discernable jump shot. Too early to tell on Bam, but if the small flashes we have seen can be built upon then that takes him to a whole new level.

In sum, Bam has way too much upside to get stuck on a comparison to TT at this juncture.

He was nowhere near as impressive in college as a basketball player. One more time for the cheap seats...o is so close to the same level of explosive athlete as bam was in college at the same age its not something you can justifiably count as a negative nor should you be so naive as to think the difference will somehow have made Bams path to being an allstar level big more likely.

The delta between their college stats was closer than the delta between their athletic ability is. That's the eye test that you just are desperate to ignore. Onyeka also had greater counting stats than Anthony Davis or Karl Towns as freshmen as Kentucky. Who cares? It's pretty well understood what Calipari has going on there. He siginificantly limits the role (and stats) of his big men while ensuring to develop essential skills

They are not the same player you can argue that all day , but the comp as a less than 7 footer with the explosive ability to back it up inside and the body control to guard multiple positions is reasonable.

Kind of like Tristan Thompson or Clint Capela or Taj Gibson. You're going straight for the best of this mold and claiming Onyeka will be better than him despite numerous posters pointing out the exact ways in which that is a tall claim and not likely.

[greg4012]

Stillwater, Big O might be the first time I believe we are on the same page with a prospect in awhile. While I don't see him directly being like Bam, I like everyone else find them to be very comparable as prospects and it's hard to see a case where Bam is a better prospect at this stage. Big O is clearly better. To be frank, I believe both had the same ceiling and Big O has a better floor but I never saw Bam getting this good either. That's what makes Bam a tough case. Bam is much better right now than I graded his potential out to be. He hit on his swing skills before I started to add them which is brand new this year.

Bam is much better right now than he was as a prospect.

That's the whole point. Comparison to an outlier progression is a losing game. Going so far as to make it an expectation (like Stillwateris doing) is an approach that makes no sense.

[King Ken]

Stillwater, Big O might be the first time I believe we are on the same page with a prospect in awhile. While I don't see him directly being like Bam, I like everyone else find them to be very comparable as prospects and it's hard to see a case where Bam is a better prospect at this stage. Big O is clearly better. To be frank, I believe both had the same ceiling and Big O has a better floor but I never saw Bam getting this good either. That's what makes Bam a tough case. Bam is much better right now than I graded his potential out to be. He hit on his swing skills before I started to add them which is brand new this year.

Bam is much better right now than he was as a prospect.

That's the whole point. Comparison to an outlier progression is a losing game. Going so far as to make it an expectation (like Stillwateris doing) is an approach that makes no sense.

This is where I agree. You can't assume Big O will be better because he is better now. Bam did have some advantages over Big O that's very obvious even to the common eye.

It's hard to say Big O can be that good because well, they aren't the same person with the same bodies. This is where I agree with you. But this idea that Bam is as smart as Big O this stage is a bad one. Big O is one of the most advanced BBIQ bigs I've seen on both ends as an OAD prospect if not clearly the best. Bam was slightly below average for your average OAD prospect.

That said, Bam has a better frame. He has better explosiveness to a small degree. He is more flexible than Okongwu. Bam athletically is more like a smaller, less flexible but more agile Dwight Howard from Orlando while Big O athletically is more like Al Horford but a lot less robotic. Obviously neither are as good of prospects as Dwight and Al was but they aren't nothing to sneeze at either.

[greg4012]

Stillwater, Big O might be the first time I believe we are on the same page with a prospect in awhile. While I don't see him directly being like Bam, I like everyone else find them to be very comparable as prospects and it's hard to see a case where Bam is a better prospect at this stage. Big O is clearly better. To be frank, I believe both had the same ceiling and Big O has a better floor but I never saw Bam getting this good either. That's what makes Bam a tough case. Bam is much better right now than I graded his potential out to be. He hit on his swing skills before I started to add them which is brand new this year.

Bam is much better right now than he was as a prospect.

That's the whole point. Comparison to an outlier progression is a losing game. Going so far as to make it an expectation (like Stillwateris doing) is an approach that makes no sense.

This is where I agree. You can't assume Big O will be better because he is better now. Bam did have some advantages over Big O that's very obvious even to the common eye.

It's hard to say Big O can be that good because well, they aren't the same person with the same bodies. This is where I agree with you. But this idea that Bam is as smart as Big O this stage is a bad one. Big O is one of the most advanced BBIQ bigs I've seen on both ends as an OAD prospect if not clearly the best. Bam was slightly below average for your average OAD prospect.

That said, Bam has a better frame. He has better explosiveness to a small degree. He is more flexible than Okongwu. Bam athletically is more like a smaller, less flexible but more agile Dwight Howard from Orlando while Big O athletically is more like Al Horford but a lot less robotic. Obviously neither are as good of prospects as Dwight and Al was but they aren't nothing to sneeze at either.

Mostly agree. I do struggle with understanding your seemingly quantitative gauge for BBIQ of a prospect based on such a small sample of college play. Onyaka does seem to be a smart defensive player.

We're starting to get into some very nuanced and close to meaningless exchange when we're talking about smarts vs BBIQ vs mental upside in these departments. Because no matter how he got there, Bam has proven to be a top tier BBIQ player in the NBA at the ripe age of 22. Was some of that hidden or untapped while he was at Kentucky? Or was it poorly scouted by those who think he was lacking there? Hard to say. The Heat "reached" for him partially because of his bball understanding and upside in that department.

[King Ken]

That's the whole point. Comparison to an outlier progression is a losing game. Going so far as to make it an expectation (like Stillwateris doing) is an approach that makes no sense.

This is where I agree. You can't assume Big O will be better because he is better now. Bam did have some advantages over Big O that's very obvious even to the common eye.

It's hard to say Big O can be that good because well, they aren't the same person with the same bodies. This is where I agree with you. But this idea that Bam is as smart as Big O this stage is a bad one. Big O is one of the most advanced BBIQ bigs I've seen on both ends as an OAD prospect if not clearly the best. Bam was slightly below average for your average OAD prospect.

That said, Bam has a better frame. He has better explosiveness to a small degree. He is more flexible than Okongwu. Bam athletically is more like a smaller, less flexible but more agile Dwight Howard from Orlando while Big O athletically is more like Al Horford but a lot less robotic. Obviously neither are as good of prospects as Dwight and Al was but they aren't nothing to sneeze at either.

Mostly agree. I do struggle with understanding your seemingly quantitative gauge for BBIQ of a prospect based on such a small sample of college play. Onyaka does seem to be a smart defensive player.

We're starting to get into some very nuanced and close to meaningless exchange when we're talking about smarts vs BBIQ vs mental upside in these departments. Because no matter how he got there, Bam has proven to be a top tier BBIQ player in the NBA at the ripe age of 22. Was some of that hidden or untapped while he was at Kentucky? Or was it poorly scouted by those who think he was lacking there? Hard to say. The Heat "reached" for him partially because of his bball understanding and upside in that department.

We can only go by the tape, watch interviews of him and how quickly he gets it and how quickly he can translate what he is seeing. The tape is how we do it and been doing it for many years.

I do not believe we missed anything about Bam from college or HS. He just went to a great staff for his style of play and work ethic. Plus a coach who was willing to use Bam in a way that's specific to Bam. This is what development in the NBA looks like

[greg4012]

This is where I agree. You can't assume Big O will be better because he is better now. Bam did have some advantages over Big O that's very obvious even to the common eye.

It's hard to say Big O can be that good because well, they aren't the same person with the same bodies. This is where I agree with you. But this idea that Bam is as smart as Big O this stage is a bad one. Big O is one of the most advanced BBIQ bigs I've seen on both ends as an OAD prospect if not clearly the best. Bam was slightly below average for your average OAD prospect.

That said, Bam has a better frame. He has better explosiveness to a small degree. He is more flexible than Okongwu. Bam athletically is more like a smaller, less flexible but more agile Dwight Howard from Orlando while Big O athletically is more like Al Horford but a lot less robotic. Obviously neither are as good of prospects as Dwight and Al was but they aren't nothing to sneeze at either.

Mostly agree. I do struggle with understanding your seemingly quantitative gauge for BBIQ of a prospect based on such a small sample of college play. Onyaka does seem to be a smart defensive player.

We're starting to get into some very nuanced and close to meaningless exchange when we're talking about smarts vs BBIQ vs mental upside in these departments. Because no matter how he got there, Bam has proven to be a top tier BBIQ player in the NBA at the ripe age of 22. Was some of that hidden or untapped while he was at Kentucky? Or was it poorly scouted by those who think he was lacking there? Hard to say. The Heat "reached" for him partially because of his bball understanding and upside in that department.

We can only go by the tape, watch interviews of him and how quickly he gets it and how quickly he can translate what he is seeing. The tape is how we do it and been doing it for many years.

I do not believe we missed anything about Bam from college or HS. He just went to a great staff for his style of play and work ethic. Plus a coach who was willing to use Bam in a way that's specific to Bam. This is what development in the NBA looks like

I think you're wrong on this, my friend. Clearly something was missed. Bam was often running like a point-center in HS and doing drills with guards after practice in college. Consensus scouting of him from the draft didn't really bring any of that up or rely on it.

BBIQ can be developed, but low BBIQ players don't just become high BBIQ players with or without coaching and development. The Heat have experienced way too many low BBIQ players (Beasley, Whiteside, Waiters) for it to simply be the result of a magical development program with Bam.

[Stillwater]

Anyway id love to know what your take on bam was before he became relevant. But you dont have that to offer everything being used to compare is based on bam now.

Well, lucky for you, I'm not someone who just spouts nonsense intending for there to be no accountability. So, I actually do have that to offer. Go sit down and have a read.

From July 2017:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1581818&hilit=tristan&start=300#p57126164

The deeper I go, the scarier it gets. They're really similar, I didn't watch/scout TT much in college but I get a sense of why he went at 4

Firstly, Tristan is a solid NBA starter. So, if that's what Bam turns into I won't complain at all.

WIth that said, while Tristan and Bam did have very similar college stats/impact and were used in a similar role at that level, in just about every way Bam is an upgraded version of TT with regards to upside.

Bam is longer than TT (more than 1 inch taller; more than 1 inch more wingspan)

Bam is bigger and stronger with a frame to add more weight naturally (Bam weighs more now than TT does presently, and 16 pounds heavier than when TT was drafted). It's also worth noting that Bam is leaner and less filled out at his current weight than TT is. Bam will easily be a 260+ pound athlete with the same explosiveness he has now.

Bam is more explosive than TT can ever dream to be. Bam has 3.5 inch greater vert than TT. Bam is clearly a quick-twitch athlete with how he moves, changes directions, etc. While TT has some solid feet to switch on P-n-Rs, Bam's athletic profile is greater in this regard. Bam is a true above-the-rim player. I can't say the same for TT. TT isn't displaying monstrous dunks and running the court like Bam.

So, if you want to say Bam is just another version of TT, please specify that he is a longer, stronger, faster, more explosive and agile version of TT.

TT has no discernable jump shot. Too early to tell on Bam, but if the small flashes we have seen can be built upon then that takes him to a whole new level.

In sum, Bam has way too much upside to get stuck on a comparison to TT at this juncture.

He was nowhere near as impressive in college as a basketball player. One more time for the cheap seats...o is so close to the same level of explosive athlete as bam was in college at the same age its not something you can justifiably count as a negative nor should you be so naive as to think the difference will somehow have made Bams path to being an allstar level big more likely.

The delta between their college stats was closer than the delta between their athletic ability is. That's the eye test that you just are desperate to ignore. Onyeka also had greater counting stats than Anthony Davis or Karl Towns as freshmen as Kentucky. Who cares? It's pretty well understood what Calipari has going on there. He siginificantly limits the role (and stats) of his big men while ensuring to develop essential skills

They are not the same player you can argue that all day , but the comp as a less than 7 footer with the explosive ability to back it up inside and the body control to guard multiple positions is reasonable.

Kind of like Tristan Thompson or Clint Capela or Taj Gibson. You're going straight for the best of this mold and claiming Onyeka will be better than him despite numerous posters pointing out the exact ways in which that is a tall claim and not likely.

Here is a nice little read about what one of the premium nba scouting crew reportedly thinks about him becoming another bam or similar player that dominates in a couple seasons.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/nba-draft-2020-onyeka-okongwus-potential-could-intrigue-warriors

[greg4012]

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/nba-draft-2020-onyeka-okongwus-potential-could-intrigue-warriors

Thanks for not addressing any of my comment and just dismissing it.

That article has almost no substance to it. Zero from any Warriors source (which is what you were insinuating). But, yes I agree Onyeka is a very good prospect and would be an OUTSTANDING fit for the Warriors. They've got all their other bases covered so all they need is a complementary piece.

This is the entirety of what anyone other than Monte Pool (the NBC Sports writer of the article) said in that piece:

He made believers out of more than a few opposing coaches, including former NBA player Terry Porter, now at the University of Portland.

“He’s what we call TC -- a tough cover,” Porter told reporters after Okongwu went for 20 points and 10 rebounds in USC’s 76-65 victory over the Pilots. “His size, his motor, his athleticism. He’s so quick to the ball. He just never quits.”

What they’re saying: “He’s a quality individual, he works hard and has a world of potential. That’s the scary thing. He’s only 19. He’s special now, but his work ethic tells me he’s determined to keep getting better. And probably will.” – Eastern Conference scout.

That's all good and well, but adds zero to the discussion we were having. That is nothing but a surface level lauding to introduce casual readers to a prospect.

[Stillwater]

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/nba-draft-2020-onyeka-okongwus-potential-could-intrigue-warriors

Thanks for not addressing any of my comment and just dismissing it.

That article has almost no substance to it. Zero from any Warriors source (which is what you were insinuating). But, yes I agree Onyeka is a very good prospect and would be an OUTSTANDING fit for the Warriors. They've got all their other bases covered so all they need is a complementary piece.

This is the entirety of what anyone other than Monte Pool (the NBC Sports writer of the article) said in that piece:

He made believers out of more than a few opposing coaches, including former NBA player Terry Porter, now at the University of Portland.

“He’s what we call TC -- a tough cover,” Porter told reporters after Okongwu went for 20 points and 10 rebounds in USC’s 76-65 victory over the Pilots. “His size, his motor, his athleticism. He’s so quick to the ball. He just never quits.”

What they’re saying: “He’s a quality individual, he works hard and has a world of potential. That’s the scary thing. He’s only 19. He’s special now, but his work ethic tells me he’s determined to keep getting better. And probably will.” – Eastern Conference scout.

That's all good and well, but adds zero to the discussion we were having. That is nothing but a surface level lauding to introduce casual readers to a prospect.

the article was meant for your lack of understanding and poor level of assessment regarding him.
There is literally zero evidence bam was a better prospect. There is a much higher opinion regarding Okongwu coming into the NBA.
All of this whining about how much you are bringing to the conversation when you have provided nothing substantial other than being a bam homer and then trying to insinuate i know jack when it is well known Okongwu is a top 10 lock and likely goes top 3 to 5 where even if i didnt know jack would be able to understand the reasoning where you clearly are not even capable of understanding what determines levels of bbiq
Esp prior to pro level coaching etc.

[greg4012]

Yikes

Still not addressing any of the actual content I provided. Dismiss things that don't jive with your opinion (read: hope) and proceed to attack the poster. Maybe throw in a substance-less article in hopes that it speaks for you. Well done. Immature posting 101.

[getrichordie]

Who the hell is the "premium NBA scouting crew?"....... NBCSports?

[getrichordie]

Just found these synergy #s for Paul Reed.



The "roll man" #s are ROUGH.

His offensive profile is NOT desirable.

[getrichordie]

Player A or Player B... and why?

A



B

[getrichordie]

In a graph where X is "Usage" and Y is "FTr," Riller is the clear leader amonst PGs.