2023 NBA Draft

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Braggins
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1081 » by Braggins » Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:33 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Braggins wrote:Both posters on here who recently tried to push back against skepticism of the Thompson twins have barely tried making an actual argument and pretty much immediately resorted to calling everyone haters.

Id honestly be interested in hearing an actual good argument/explanation for why their lack of production at their age against such terrible competition shouldn't be considered a big red flag.

I'm not actually convinced they are bad or anything and so far am just skeptical of them, but haven't watched them yet so I can't say anything definitive. My mind is open, but so far the only arguments I'm hearing are that everyone that isn't sold on them is a hater or angry old man, so yeah...

The bold part is all that matters in your post.

I can't imagine commenting on here about a player if I've never watched them a sufficient amount.

Hey, I've never driven a Lamborghini but maybe I'll go join a Lamborghini forum and criticize them and talk about how other cars are better. :banghead:

Dude, Ive said multiple times now that I don't have any kind of definitive opinion on them because I haven't seen them play and am only skeptical of their lack of production given their age and the competition they are playing against. You again aren't even trying to make any kind of counterargument to the skeptics. Its fine if you just want to disregard my opinion (or lack thereof) because I haven't watched them play, but don't expect to sway anyone if you aren't actually bringing any kind of argument to the table.

Here is some analysis someone else on here gave after watching some of their full games. If you actually have anything useful to say feel free to push back on these concerns.

Spoiler:
So, I now watched 3 full Overtime Elite games from the past couple weeks (Amen played in all 3, his brother only in 1) and honestly, I'd be scared to death to draft them in the top 5 if I were a decision-maker on an NBA team.

The level of play is just so bad compared to college and G-League. Little talent, no structure, no value of possessions, almost no size. Essentially, they dominate a competition of teenagers playing pick-up basketball. Tough to take too much away from that.

Now, that being said, they are clearly exciting prospects in some aspects and you obviously draft them (and not too low either), but the question to which extent their games translate to the NBA level has to scare teams off at least to some degree.

But just looking at them at prospects, here's what we're looking at (based on my observations, and based mostly Amen Thompson's play) – from good to bad:

– Athleticism: They absolutely are ridiculous quick-twitch athletes. Great first step, great speed and agility, finish easily above the rim. They will be high-level NBA athletes without a doubt, and a menace in transition. One note of caution, though: they lack physical strength compared to other players who are primarily paint-finishers. That could be an issue, and it'll be relevant to see how much they can catch up in this area.

– Defense: Yes, I can see them being awesome on-ball defenders. Super quick, long, some good screen navigation (although the NBA is an entirely different beast in that regard) and for the level of play, they do play with a good motor (although the shot contests on jump shots are often weak, but that could just be because players in that league for the most part can't really shoot well). Off-ball defense remains to be seen. They just haven't had to focus on that in that competition, so it doesn't always look great but since it's rarely punished it's hard to fault them too much for it.

– Playmaking: I've seen Amen make a bunch of good reads. BUT: those are mostly easy reads because defenses leave players wide open and do not have the length or organization, and in some cases athleticism, to recover and disrupt those passes. So the reads may look advanced until you notice that the player who receives the ball is often wide open and open for a long time. Still a good foundation to have that, but it remains to be seen if they can also make faster and less obvious reads at the next level. The passes themselves are nothing to write home about. Not many passes are right in the pocket, I've seen lots of passes that went too low, high, left or right, and that's a problem in the NBA. The question is whether that will improve once they play more serious competition when stuff like this actually matters. At this point, they'll have to rely on making relatively easy reads and passes off of defensive rotations they set in motion with their driving threat. That's fine, though – IF they can break down NBA defenses consistently, which remains to be seen.

– Ballhandling: They are creative and fairly fluid, so that's a plus. That being said, I wonder how functional the handles really are. For instance, in three games I've seen Amen get picked and turn it over at least 5 or 6 times on just his spin move! And that's against defenders that are nowhere near as disruptive as players on good college teams, not to mention the NBA. I could also see a lot of carrying violations in their future if the NBA continues to call them tight. So while I do believe they have the foundation to operate off the dribble in the NBA – at least to some degree – I do have concerns about their flash-over-substance style of dribbling.

– Shooting: This is the real issue. Because if opponents can just dare you to shoot and you either refuse to take the shot or just brick too many, you'll have a lot problems in the NBA as a wing. For starters, there's zero chance that you can be a consistent on-ball initiator. So even if you are a great athlete with a functional handle who can pass the ball, that's still not enough if you can't at least hit open shots somewhat reliably. And when you're off the ball, you hurt your team's spacing and coaches don't like that. I wouldn't say they are hopeless cases as shooters BUT: they can get every open shot they want in that league, and yet there are still a bunch of unbelievable bricks among them. It's definitely going to be an uphill battle for them I fear.

And one last note on finishing: when they can load up, they are tough to stop. Give them a driving lane or an open court and they are gone. I've also seen some finishes with solid touch. But I've also seen some really poor finishing attempts around the rim when contested and an NBA (or even college) paint is an entirely different animal. This is also where the physicality question comes in. It doesn't matter how quick and explosive you are: if you can't move defenders in the paint and you don't have a ridiculous lay-up package either, you're going to end up with a lot of ugly shot attempts when contested.

To sum it up: I do see the appeal of two players with good size who are that athletic and show some on-ball creativity. But there are some serious concerns that would make me seriously hesitate to pick them over more proven players. The twins are clearly players who look A LOT better on highlight mixtapes because you see all the ridiculously explosive plays on both ends, the creative finishes and passes, some breakdowns of defenders with a flashy move, and the shots that go in. But what you don't see are the numerous bricks, how defenses give them all the shots they want without being punished, the ugly turnovers and passes that are way off, all the times that the finishes around the rim don't work. It's essentially a highlight mixtape from HS pick-up basketball – and there have been way too many players who have had awesome mixtapes in HS but never amounted to much. And while I'm not saying that's the case here necessarily, it's definitely not something we can rule out yet and that has to be taken into account when we talk about the NBA draft where franchises have A TON riding on their rare high lottery picks.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1082 » by God Squad » Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:41 pm

A bunch of games on today, but nothing noteworthy. Saturday on the other hand should be interesting with several decent games.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1083 » by buzzkilloton » Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:29 am

It really doesnt matter what the comp is vs the Thompson twins or what the warts are. You dont see 6'7 players with this sort of athleticism+IQ enter the draft often. NBA teams are going to be all over their tantalizing upside as they should be.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1084 » by Hal14 » Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:24 pm

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But I thought the twins had a lack of a production? lol
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1085 » by Chi town » Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:11 pm

I like Cason Wallace. That 3 is quick. Think he could become a high level 3D PG on high volume.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1086 » by babyjax13 » Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:57 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Read on Twitter


But I thought the twins had a lack of a production? lol

OTE is doing a disservice to these kids keeping them for a year after high school. The Thompson twins still can't shoot, and they are playing inferior competition. That is going to raise red flags to someone, just like it did for Montero, and Barlow, who went UDFA but IMO would not have had they played in a real league.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1087 » by azcatz11 » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:38 pm

How come no one ever talks about isiah Wong? He is such An amazing scorer and shoots 38% from 3. He can be a 8th man and microwave off the bench for a team. Whoever drafts him in the second will get a steal
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1088 » by clyde21 » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:42 pm

Clowney's good

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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1089 » by NYPiston » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:52 pm

Brandon Miller is unstoppable today. I don't know if anybody made the Paul George comparison but he certainly looks the part today, not the same athleticism but the frame and how smooth he plays the way he glides reminds me of PG.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1090 » by The Moose » Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:00 pm

Dick keeps getting it done

still prefer Ant Black over NSJ as prospects
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1091 » by Braggins » Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:17 pm

The Moose wrote:still prefer Ant Black over NSJ as prospects

Were you able to watch the game today? Its the first game since NSJ has been back that I haven't been able to find a way to watch. His box looks like he had a really bad game. 1/8 from field and 1/4 from 3pt with 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 stock, and 2 turnovers. I was box score watching a bit and seems like he didn't attempt a shot for most of the second half and maybe didn't play much.

Black had some nice production with 15/3/4/2/2 on 4-7/0-1/7-11 shooting and 2 turnovers.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1092 » by azcatz11 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:44 am

The Moose wrote:Dick keeps getting it done

still prefer Ant Black over NSJ as prospects


It’s crazy…whenever I watch him, I see a hard Dick to cover. It’s almost like he grows in size as the game goes on
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1093 » by buzzkilloton » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:03 am

Braggins wrote:
The Moose wrote:still prefer Ant Black over NSJ as prospects

Were you able to watch the game today? Its the first game since NSJ has been back that I haven't been able to find a way to watch. His box looks like he had a really bad game. 1/8 from field and 1/4 from 3pt with 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 stock, and 2 turnovers. I was box score watching a bit and seems like he didn't attempt a shot for most of the second half and maybe didn't play much.

Black had some nice production with 15/3/4/2/2 on 4-7/0-1/7-11 shooting and 2 turnovers.


https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/arkansas-football/eric-musselman-updates-injury-status-of-star-freshman-nick-smith-jr/

I didnt watch but NSJ got hurt. Guess he had a ankle injury entering the game and had some problems with it.

He just hasnt had a good start to the season knee injury holding him out a long time and now a ankle. Will see what he looks like when he gets healthy as Arkansas is going to have some big games later. Says its not a serious injury so thats good.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1094 » by EvanZ » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:35 am

azcatz11 wrote:
The Moose wrote:Dick keeps getting it done

still prefer Ant Black over NSJ as prospects


It’s crazy…whenever I watch him, I see a hard Dick to cover. It’s almost like he grows in size as the game goes on

BDE


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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1095 » by clyde21 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:56 am

Sanogo is one of the funnest bigs to watch at the college level, not sure he'd work in the NBA but still hella fun to watch and pretty skilled
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1096 » by buzzkilloton » Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:29 am

Dick ultra impressive today. He gave em some Hard D

20points on only 12 shots playing within the offense. Scouts hating on his defense he goes out there and gets 5steals and a block.
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1097 » by Hal14 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:09 pm

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But, but, but...the lack of production!
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1098 » by azcatz11 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:31 pm

buzzkilloton wrote:Dick ultra impressive today. He gave em some Hard D

20points on only 12 shots playing within the offense. Scouts hating on his defense he goes out there and gets 5steals and a block.


This dude is a stud I love watching him play. I feel like he’s a top 10 pick rn
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1099 » by clyde21 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:42 pm

12/18 update, feel decent about this at this point with enough film to back it up, but still very fluid especially after you get past the top 8.

1 Victor Wembanyama

2 Scoot Henderson
3 Anthony Black
4 GG Jackson

5 Keyonte George
6 Nick Smith Jr.
7 Cam Whitmore
8 Taylor Hendricks

9 Dariq Whitehead
10 Ricky Council IV
11 Jalen Wilson
12 Jett Howard
13 Cason Wallace
14 Jordan Hawkins
15 Gradey Dick
16 Jarace Walker
17 Kyle Filipowski
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Re: 2023 NBA Draft 

Post#1100 » by Catchall » Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:01 pm

clyde21 wrote:12/18 update, feel decent about this at this point with enough film to back it up, but still very fluid especially after you get past the top 8.

1 Victor Wembanyama

2 Scoot Henderson
3 Anthony Black
4 GG Jackson

5 Keyonte George
6 Nick Smith Jr.
7 Cam Whitmore
8 Taylor Hendricks

9 Dariq Whitehead
10 Ricky Council IV
11 Jalen Wilson
12 Jett Howard
13 Cason Wallace
14 Jordan Hawkins
15 Gradey Dick
16 Jarace Walker
17 Kyle Filipowski


You're not a believer in the Thompsons, it seems. I like Anthony Black, but I think both Thompsons will be better than he is. They're like the ultimate drive-and-kick players in an increasingly drive-and-kick league. Almost no guards are going to be able to stay in front of them on account of their length, let alone their explosiveness.

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