Jonas Valanciunas

[xprt]

Man I would love so much to see Valanciunas play this year in World vs USA. Last year he couldn't because his team needed him at that time for important match.

[brassviews]

Who here actually watched Kanter play for a regular basis?

All due respect to the scouting reports, I can't say "i'll take X" if I havn't really seen him play - and i'm positive 99% of this board havn't seen Kanter play.

Thats my biggest problem about Kanter... All those who say Kanter looks better havent actually seen him play - their judgement is mostly based on his frame and on the Hoop performance or from youth tournaments more than two years ago....

But he is a big X. We havent seen him play regularly in a strong contest. Valanciunas on the other hand competed on the second best league in the world and played well whenever he got more minutes.

Judging form the frame and from what I remember of Kanter two years ago, he looks more NBA fit physically than Jonas but the problem is that Jonas continued playing and improving while we havent seen what was Kanter doing all that much. And there are also problems with his knees... Hopefully they wont become nagging problems but right now I would put Kanter on double risky list (1 risk - no major competitions in two years, 2 risk - possible injuries).

It comes down to the College vs. Euro Competition argument. Most people on this board don't watch Euro competition. Therefore, they side with the guy who's playing college ball. In this case, they go with Kanter.

This is not the best approach, but it's the easiest for people. If Valanciunas or Vesely were playing college ball, they would be rank higher (a lot higher).

[boogie-reke]

Who here actually watched Kanter play for a regular basis?

All due respect to the scouting reports, I can't say "i'll take X" if I havn't really seen him play - and i'm positive 99% of this board havn't seen Kanter play.

True, but there is plenty of youtube video on him - including the World v USA game that he dominated like nobody since Nowitzki. They don't give the full picture, but they give people a picture of his strengths.

Yea, but like from youtube highlights it's easy to make a player look great, cause like you say it gives a picture of his strengths - so it's kinda easy to look good.

Another thing is - against who he's putting this numbers, and at what level.. people fail to understand that there's a huge huge huge huge huuuuuuge diffrence between the kind of level Jonas is playing against and the one Kanter was.

Now i'm not saying this ti diss Kanter, like I said, I can't speak highly or bring down a player I didn't watch play regularly, but I honestly can't understand or take people seriously when they say "I'll take Kanter over Jonas" without having a real indepth analysis about his strength and weaknesses for themselfs, and not from some random scout reports..Kanter might really be the better option, but thats how I see it atleast.


@brassviews

I agree with you.

But the problem is - Kanter isn't even playing collage ball so they can side with him.. people just simply did not see him play in a real game for 40\48 minutes... and even if they did - 1 game is not close to enough to have judgment and form an opinion on "who should I go with as a top 5 draft pick"

[karolis1221]

Man I would love so much to see Valanciunas play this year in World vs USA. Last year he couldn't because his team needed him at that time for important match.

me too but this year he is very important part of the team and same matches coming like last year i think.

[Ruzious]

Who here actually watched Kanter play for a regular basis?

All due respect to the scouting reports, I can't say "i'll take X" if I havn't really seen him play - and i'm positive 99% of this board havn't seen Kanter play.

True, but there is plenty of youtube video on him - including the World v USA game that he dominated like nobody since Nowitzki. They don't give the full picture, but they give people a picture of his strengths.

Yea, but like from youtube highlights it's easy to make a player look great, cause like you say it gives a picture of his strengths - so it's kinda easy to look good.

Another thing is - against who he's putting this numbers, and at what level.. people fail to understand that there's a huge huge huge huge huuuuuuge diffrence between the kind of level Jonas is playing against and the one Kanter was.

Now i'm not saying this ti diss Kanter, like I said, I can't speak highly or bring down a player I didn't watch play regularly, but I honestly can't understand or take people seriously when they say "I'll take Kanter over Jonas" without having a real indepth analysis about his strength and weaknesses for themselfs, and not from some random scout reports..Kanter might really be the better option, but thats how I see it atleast.

I hear ya, but he really has played against tough competition and dominated against it. He made the All Tournament team at age 15 at the Albert Schweitzer Tournament. In 2009, he was named the MVP of the U18 Euro Championship - and supposedly was more dominant there than Rubio was before him. In 2010, he dominated in the Nike Hoop Summitt. I think the body of work is there. And honestly, I think it's easier to get a handle on him (assuming he's healthy) as an NBA prospect than it is on Jonas, because he's physically developed, and his game looks more developed. It actually looks a lot more developed.

[Darknemo2000]

I hear ya, but he really has played against tough competition and dominated against it. He made the All Tournament team at age 15 at the Albert Schweitzer Tournament. In 2009, he was named the MVP of the U18 Euro Championship - and supposedly was more dominant there than Rubio was before him. In 2010, he dominated in the Nike Hoop Summitt. I think the body of work is there. And honestly, I think it's easier to get a handle on him (assuming he's healthy) as an NBA prospect than it is on Jonas, because he's physically developed, and his game looks more developed. It actually looks a lot more developed.

You have to not forget that Turkey usually plays off of him. Some of his ridiculous stats come from there.

Physically he is strong but he still played against kids. Heck even Karnowski looks good playing against normally weaker guys. In men basketball the actual physical strength equals around and you cant dominate it so than compared to youth tournament, unless you have great athleticism, which Kanter does not posses.

You need more stuff than that. Thats my problem. Physically he is strong but adults are physically strong as well, how will he do when he cannot dominate with his mass we simply don't know. Valanciunas can get around it and still get double doubles against adults of Euroleague level but we dont know how will Kanter do who is more mass focused center. Pointing to Hoops performance means nothing.

I would take one decent Euroleague game against grown up strong center over twenty of Hoops dominating performances.

[Ruzious]

You gotta realize you're talking about adults that mostly aren't good enough to be even considered for the NBA. There would definitely be value in seeing how Kanter would do against them - but to just poopoo him dominating real talents who will play in the NBA is being close minded. Just looking at the Euroleague All-Decade team, the players we're familiar with in the US were at best mediocre NBA talents - and mostly less than that - Anthony Parker was the best of em, JR Holden?, Sarunas Jasikavicius (sp?) was only an average player at my college (Univ of MD) and was a joke in the NBA, Trajan Langdon, and JC Navarro. Those last 3 guys I mentioned - If they were tablecloths, they couldn't even cover a table. http://www.euroleague.net/competition/a ... /main-page

[karolis1221]

You gotta realize you're talking about adults that mostly aren't good enough to be even considered for the NBA. There would definitely be value in seeing how Kanter would do against them - but to just poopoo him dominating real talents who will play in the NBA is being close minded. Just looking at the Euroleague All-Decade team, the players we're familiar with in the US were at best mediocre NBA talents - and mostly less than that - Anthony Parker was the best of em, JR Holden?, Sarunas Jasikavicius (sp?) was only an average player at my college (Univ of MD) and was a joke in the NBA, Trajan Langdon, and JC Navarro. Those last 3 guys I mentioned - If they were tablecloths, they couldn't even cover a table. http://www.euroleague.net/competition/a ... /main-page

Sarunas jasikevicius didnt dominated Euroleague aswell his average was 12points and 5assist a game but still he considered best just because of his game winner shots at most important times,he was clutch and had unique passing abilities.

[Darknemo2000]

You gotta realize you're talking about adults that mostly aren't good enough to be even considered for the NBA. There would definitely be value in seeing how Kanter would do against them - but to just poopoo him dominating real talents who will play in the NBA is being close minded. Just looking at the Euroleague All-Decade team, the players we're familiar with in the US were at best mediocre NBA talents - and mostly less than that - Anthony Parker was the best of em, JR Holden?, Sarunas Jasikavicius (sp?) was only an average player at my college (Univ of MD) and was a joke in the NBA, Trajan Langdon, and JC Navarro. Those last 3 guys I mentioned - If they were tablecloths, they couldn't even cover a table. http://www.euroleague.net/competition/a ... /main-page

The mass is enough actually. They dont have to be extremely skilled but they have power and mass to push around, much more than Collage most of the time. Play college team and Euroleague team and euroleague team would win most of the time.

Heck Cavs and Lakers lost to them in this season too.

They may be not have enough skills to dominate NBA, but they would dominate College teams because of the mass and experience combination. Thats why game in Euroleague is much more worthy than any of the College games or even Hoops where you compete in your age group.

Jasikevicius was a god but his stats were never impressive even in Euroleague, he was just average there, but he was a god because of those clutch shots he made during his career in the most important matches.

[Ruzious]

I'm not really disagreeing much with what you said. I wasn't even talking about college teams - other than mentioning Roony was a mediocre player at my college. The most notable thing about him when he was at Maryland was that he was dating a supermodel. Apparently, he could score... just not on a basketball court.

[xprt]

Jasikevicius was a joke in nba? He didn't got a good chance 7 pts 3 assist in 18 min. I guess there is a lot of jokes playing in nba.. An who scored 28 pts on usa in 2004 olympics and won in group stage?Good for a joke But nvm Jasikevicius.
About euroleague. You say that mostly of them don't have a talent to play for nba but how much of colleage bigs have chance to make proffesional basketball career let alone play in nba. To dominate against bunch of kids is one thing to play against proffesionals is another.Kanter used his strenght 260 pound frame ( only 6''10 with 7'1 wingspan) playing against kids which wouldn't be case in nba as all bigs are much stronger.Valanciunas on other hand uses his lenght and his atleast 7'6 wingspan. This strenght of his wouldn't disappear opposite to Kanters... Btw kanter played in 4 Euroleague games http://www.euroleague.net/competition/p ... ode=000936

[karolis1221]

So back to the Valanciunas and draft . Which team you think going for him at this year draft? which lottery teams are weak at center positions and needs something like him badly? Which team in your opinion would be best for his later skills development(coaching staff,better oportunities to get more playing time...).Sry for bad english lol.

[Ruzious]

Jasikevicius was a joke in nba? He didn't got a good chance 7 pts 3 assist in 18 min. I guess there is a lot of jokes playing in nba.. An who scored 28 pts on usa in 2004 olympics and won in group stage?Good for a joke But nvm Jasikevicius.
About euroleague. You say that mostly of them don't have a talent to play for nba but how much of colleage bigs have chance to make proffesional basketball career let alone play in nba. To dominate against bunch of kids is one thing to play against proffesionals is another.Kanter used his strenght 260 pound frame ( only 6''10 with 7'1 wingspan) playing against kids which wouldn't be case in nba as all bigs are much stronger.Valanciunas on other hand uses his lenght and his atleast 7'6 wingspan. This strenght of his wouldn't disappear opposite to Kanters... Btw kanter played in 4 Euroleague games http://www.euroleague.net/competition/p ... ode=000936

Sorry, but if you don't want me to talk about Roony, don't pick and choose the irrelevant facts. He was a joke in the NBA - just like I said. He was perhaps the worst NBA defender I've ever seen, and he shot under 40%. He was maybe the slowest NBA PG I've ever seen and too small to play shooting guard. He got cut by Don Nelson - the one NBA coach who could stand his style of play. That's how bad he was.

And again, you're bringing up college players, and I was not talking about them. I was talking about HS all-stars - and most of them will go on to play professional basketball. I never said it's the same as playing against Euroleague players. I said it shouldn't be dismissed.

[Darknemo2000]

And again, you're bringing up college players, and I was not talking about them. I was talking about HS all-stars - and most of them will go on to play professional basketball. I never said it's the same as playing against Euroleague players. I said it shouldn't be dismissed.

Bring Barcelona and Olympiacos or Maccabi against HS All-stars and they would rip those All-stars apart. They might have more skills and more talent (no not 'might' in most cases they actually do), but the key is that they are still evolving and those players in Euroleague clubs are hard professionals who have been playing the ball a whole lot more. Less talented but at the point of their career and at the point of HS All-stars the HS All-stars would be dominated by most of top tier Euroleague clubs. The experience matters quite a bit at this point.

You like to Point to Jasikevicius and others making the decade team but you have to realize that they are not necessarily taking the most talented players to play in the league but the ones who played a lot of years in the league with considerable talent. Ginobili or Scola played in euroleague too. They just didn't stay there as long as those other guys did.

[sisibilio]

Bring Barcelona and Olympiacos or Maccabi against HS All-stars and they would rip those All-stars apart. They might have more skills and more talent (no not 'might' in most cases they actually do), but the key is that they are still evolving and those players in Euroleague clubs are hard professionals who have been playing the ball a whole lot more. Less talented but at the point of their career and at the point of HS All-stars the HS All-stars would be dominated by most of top tier Euroleague clubs. The experience matters quite a bit at this point.

Most? Every Euroleague team would crush them badly, even the weakest team in the lithuanian league probably would win.

BTW Valanciunas was just named MVP in the all-star of the lithuanian league.

[erudite23]

Its not as simple as just saying Player X can't play in the NBA and can play in Europe so therefore European results mean jack. Its not an apples to apples comparison. There are elements of European basketball that are close or equal to NBA-level. For instance, the size-to-size ratio is pretty much equal. European bigs (at the highest levels) are just as big (maybe even bigger) than NBA bigs. But the athleticism between the average 6'10" NBA guy and 6'10" EL guy? No comparison.

Because of this, certain things translate better from Europe than other things. A penetrating guard, for example, is less likely to be able to succeed than a dominating rebounder and shot blocker. I think the things that Valanciunas does are more translate-able (lol) than the typical Euro prospect. I think the same thing about Kanter, too. Not so high on Vesely, though, as he seems to lack a few of the most important things it takes to succeed as an NBA wing (and he clearly isn't suited to be a real PF).

Still, its not an excuse to dismiss the Hoop Summit. It has proven in the past to be a very good tool for evaluating NBA talent. Both are very valid forms for evaluating, and I would struggle to put one above the other in terms of importance.

[Ruzious]

And again, you're bringing up college players, and I was not talking about them. I was talking about HS all-stars - and most of them will go on to play professional basketball. I never said it's the same as playing against Euroleague players. I said it shouldn't be dismissed.

Bring Barcelona and Olympiacos or Maccabi against HS All-stars and they would rip those All-stars apart. They might have more skills and more talent (no not 'might' in most cases they actually do), but the key is that they are still evolving and those players in Euroleague clubs are hard professionals who have been playing the ball a whole lot more. Less talented but at the point of their career and at the point of HS All-stars the HS All-stars would be dominated by most of top tier Euroleague clubs. The experience matters quite a bit at this point.

You like to Point to Jasikevicius and others making the decade team but you have to realize that they are not necessarily taking the most talented players to play in the league but the ones who played a lot of years in the league with considerable talent. Ginobili or Scola played in euroleague too. They just didn't stay there as long as those other guys did.

Dude, you're not listening to what I said. You're making points not related to what I said - and it's going on post after post. We're not communicating.

[Ruzious]

Its not as simple as just saying Player X can't play in the NBA and can play in Europe so therefore European results mean jack. Its not an apples to apples comparison. There are elements of European basketball that are close or equal to NBA-level. For instance, the size-to-size ratio is pretty much equal. European bigs (at the highest levels) are just as big (maybe even bigger) than NBA bigs. But the athleticism between the average 6'10" NBA guy and 6'10" EL guy? No comparison.

Because of this, certain things translate better from Europe than other things. A penetrating guard, for example, is less likely to be able to succeed than a dominating rebounder and shot blocker. I think the things that Valanciunas does are more translate-able (lol) than the typical Euro prospect. I think the same thing about Kanter, too. Not so high on Vesely, though, as he seems to lack a few of the most important things it takes to succeed as an NBA wing (and he clearly isn't suited to be a real PF).

Still, its not an excuse to dismiss the Hoop Summit. It has proven in the past to be a very good tool for evaluating NBA talent. Both are very valid forms for evaluating, and I would struggle to put one above the other in terms of importance.

Very well said.

[Darknemo2000]

Dude, you're not listening to what I said. You're making points not related to what I said - and it's going on post after post. We're not communicating.

Well for me one Euroleague game (of course considering that the team is at least mid-tear Euroleague level) usually has more challenge and competitiveness than Hoops Summit All-Stars. It doesn't mean that the youth who does well in Euro will do well in NBA, but on the same time neither does Hoops (somehow I cannot imagine Macvan being a big NBA star though he dominated the Hoops).

Hoops has advantage that the hoops type of game is closer to NBA than Euroleague but at the same time - the level of competitiveness is much different and I certainly prefer Euroleague games over Hoops in the sense to see what one or the other guy can do when competing with grown ups instead of same age kids who are still in searching for their game.

[erudite23]

The overall competition level of the games might be higher in Euro league. But the standard of athleticism is much, MUCH higher in a typical Hoops Summit. Since, at that age, pure athletic ability is such a big part of projecting a player's eventual level of performance, that makes it a more suitable tool for figuring out how much "talent" (i.e. athleticism) an 18 year old Euro has. The fact that Kanter was able to dominate against the elite, young American athletes is a big deal. We have no idea yet how Valanciunas will fare against said athleticism.