Frank Ntilikina

[JPF]

@JPF I think you make some valid points but I'd argue the the obstacles for Sergio Rodriguez were far more than just the speed of the game like it is with Ntilikina. Ntilikina will earn minutes for his defense initially and expand from there. I've said it before but I expect him to "figure it out" heading into that 2nd contract. If he stay in Europe, he will still have to make a transition to the speed..maybe not as dramatic...but a steep learning curve by coming over early might mean getting the rewards much sooner.

True. Rodriguez situation was a far from perfect example. He did return to europe visibly rusty though.

I think the transition will come natural for Ntilikina within a season in europe, he probably wouldn't need more than that. Steep learning curve coming to NBA right away might indeed increase the rewards, that's absolutely true, however I personaly wouldn't risk that if I were in his shoes.

I admit I wasn't all that focused on Parker, Beaubois, Fournier in their days in French league prior to NBA and French posters that paid more attention to those would be better at evaluating how Ntilikina's transition should go in comparison.
I did watch Luwawu-Cabarot (Philly) a lot last year and he was tearing it up at slightly lower level than Ntilikina, even if for a team that purpously promoted him, his case is the most recent one that makes me feel timeing of entering the league isn't unimportant.

[coutournant]

Ntilikina struggles since the beginning of the season because he is playing off the ball. He never played at the wing before, that's a big part of his low statistics, since he doesn't know how to position offensively without being the playmaker of his team. He always excelled as the floor general of his teams in youth categories. Strasbourg's former coach, Henrik Dettman who has been fired, recruited two US guards at the beginning at the season, Slaughter and Walker top players of Pro A. That was obviously not a good move for Frank. Slaughter and Lacombe are actually a lot better than Ntilikina but it is not true for Walker, even if the coach is still letting him playing a lot despite being sometimes very bad at setting his teammates and defending.

Since a couple of games Ntilikina is in the starting five at the small forward position due to Pape Sy (former NBA player) injury. It seems like he is adapting more and more playing at the wing because he produced two of his best games this season : he made 15pts 4rbd 2ast and 12 pts 2 rbds 2 stls against Gravelines. I hope Frank will keep improving this way because it is obvious his coach won't let him flourish at the point in this team.

just stop. It's embarrassing lmao. smh. And no, it's not because he "doesn't know how to position offensively". It's because his teammates suck and don't look for him...like at all..when he's a SG. You guys are going to look really foolish come draft night and when he succeeds in the NBA. Are you sure you want to hitch your wagon to this narrative?

You are right, his teammates usually don't look at him, because he was not on the right timing to receive the ball. But he's improving lately, it seems like he's learning how to play off the ball. I'm the first fan of Ntilikina in this forum, I talk about him since 2 or 3 years saying how unique he is, and if he can become a multi-positionnal player I would be very happy. You can read my posts in the first pages of "International Prospects" thread. He's just having a tough season, he is adapting a new role, but he is a top talent to me, I always really liked him a lot.

[The-Power]

I don't know how many people have been able to watch Ntilikina's second game against Aris but he's shown a lot in this crucial game.

Due to Walker's foul trouble he got to play more on-ball and his scoring ability was on full display in the first quarter. He made 4 out of his first 5 shots and did it in a variety of ways. Once he took his defender off the dribble one on one with elite quickness and finished at the rim with his left hand. Then he fluidly made a pull-up 3 as the ballhandler in the PnR, made a catch-and-shoot 3 and had a lay-up after an off-ball cut to the rim. Ended the game with 15 Points on 6/8 shooting (3/4 from 3).

The translation of playmaking to the NBA is also tough to judge because the European style is quite different. Ntilikina wasn't asked to be a primary playmaker but you could see flashes of his court vision and given what we already know about him it seems reasonable to assume that he's going to look better in the NBA (assuming he's actually involved in plays) - he's shown flashes of being a capable PnR playmaker, he sees to floor well, can handle the ball in transition and finds shooters.

Defensively he's got all the tools you could hope for. Ridiculously long arms, engaged, anticipates well and has the quickness and length to deal with all types of guards (and some smaller forwards). Had some lapses the other night but was still good on that end and everybody who's seen him a couple times knows that his defense is going to be there from day one - and that's huge for Rookies who have to fight for playing time.

[JohnWillow]

I don't know how many people have been able to watch Ntilikina's second game against Aris but he's shown a lot in this crucial game.

Due to Walker's foul trouble he got to play more on-ball and his scoring ability was on full display in the first quarter. He made 4 out of his first 5 shots and did it in a variety of ways. Once he took his defender off the dribble one on one with elite quickness and finished at the rim with his left hand. Then he fluidly made a pull-up 3 as the ballhandler in the PnR, made a catch-and-shoot 3 and had a lay-up after an off-ball cut to the rim. Ended the game with 15 Points on 6/8 shooting (3/4 from 3).

The translation of playmaking to the NBA is also tough to judge because the European style is quite different. Ntilikina wasn't asked to be a primary playmaker but you could see flashes of his court vision and given what we already know about him it seems reasonable to assume that he's going to look better in the NBA (assuming he's actually involved in plays) - he's shown flashes of being a capable PnR playmaker, he sees to floor well, can handle the ball in transition and finds shooters.

Defensively he's got all the tools you could hope for. Ridiculously long arms, engaged, anticipates well and has the quickness and length to deal with all types of guards (and some smaller forwards). Had some lapses the other night but was still good on that end and everybody who's seen him a couple times knows that his defense is going to be there from day one - and that's huge for Rookies who have to fight for playing time.

I really bad want to draft him with our pick, I was watching that game few days ago, he looked awesome, made it clear to me that he is worth to take him in top 10.

[KF10]

How different is Frank to a guy like Dante Exum?

[GimmeDat]

How different is Frank to a guy like Dante Exum?

In my opinion it's hard to compare because we're biased by Exum's NBA play so far. My initial feeling is to say that Ntilikina is the better prospect, but at the time, Exum's tools really stood out as elite and made him a higher pick in a strong draft.

I'm still going to give the edge to Frank, though. They're similar frames with similar defensive potential. I'd say overall Exum is the better athlete, Frank doesn't have the same first step, for instance, but still a nice overall athlete, and I'd say more aggressive in utilizing the athleticism he does have than Exum has shown to this point. Frank's got a much better jumper, which also enables him to be more effective in lineups playing the 2 spot, and his ball handling also seems more developed. They share the similarity that they're not going to be elite playmakers but they'll consistently make the right, smart decisions with the ball, imo.

Vaguely speaking, I'd say they both have high ceilings but Frank has the higher floor.

[Kolkmania]

How different is Frank to a guy like Dante Exum?

In my opinion it's hard to compare because we're biased by Exum's NBA play so far. My initial feeling is to say that Ntilikina is the better prospect, but at the time, Exum's tools really stood out as elite and made him a higher pick in a strong draft.

I'm still going to give the edge to Frank, though. They're similar frames with similar defensive potential. I'd say overall Exum is the better athlete, Frank doesn't have the same first step, for instance, but still a nice overall athlete, and I'd say more aggressive in utilizing the athleticism he does have than Exum has shown to this point. Frank's got a much better jumper, which also enables him to be more effective in lineups playing the 2 spot, and his ball handling also seems more developed. They share the similarity that they're not going to be elite playmakers but they'll consistently make the right, smart decisions with the ball, imo.

Vaguely speaking, I'd say they both have high ceilings but Frank has the higher floor.

Agree on you floor comparison. Ntilikina's shooting and defense will always make him a valuable asset, even if he'll never be a primary ball handler. His skill set is also much more advanced than Dante Exum at the same age. Exum's elite first step makes me think he has a higher ceiling than Ntilikina though.

[No-Man]

Frank is a better shooter and a more poised player, super polished on defense for his age, has some troubles against quicker Guards, but that's just common, he isnt the athlete laterally or even in the air that Exum was as a prospect, with his 1st step, I think Frank hesitates to dribble at times and doesnt have much of an intermediate game, he is like Ball in that, I do think Frank is a more natural PG, he doesnt make wowing plays or go for difficult passes, but he can lead a team, without turning the ball over and make easy passes.
Exum's ceiling remains higher due to his physical tools, but Frank's floor is there and seems clearly better, I think if he can get coached in the PnR, hasnt had much practice at all t his club, and he is the age guys like Lillard were before they became freshmen and made PnR their bread'n butter through running it for 4 years, plus improve athletically as he gains strength, he can be a truly + player.

I'd surprised if he doesnt outplay his draft slot, he is likely gonna get picked in the 8th to 12th range, and I'd say that Dallas is a big candidate to draft him, the other one is NY with Jacko.

[eagereyez]

How different is Frank to a guy like Dante Exum?

In my opinion it's hard to compare because we're biased by Exum's NBA play so far. My initial feeling is to say that Ntilikina is the better prospect, but at the time, Exum's tools really stood out as elite and made him a higher pick in a strong draft.

I'm still going to give the edge to Frank, though. They're similar frames with similar defensive potential. I'd say overall Exum is the better athlete, Frank doesn't have the same first step, for instance, but still a nice overall athlete, and I'd say more aggressive in utilizing the athleticism he does have than Exum has shown to this point. Frank's got a much better jumper, which also enables him to be more effective in lineups playing the 2 spot, and his ball handling also seems more developed. They share the similarity that they're not going to be elite playmakers but they'll consistently make the right, smart decisions with the ball, imo.

Vaguely speaking, I'd say they both have high ceilings but Frank has the higher floor.

That alone is a big distinction between him and Exum. Exum couldn't hit water from a boat (and still can't).

[Mirotic12]

just watched. You're clueless bro. He didn't play bad at all. He was very disruptive defensively and forced two turnovers. He got called for 3 fouls but two of the were laughable. He's a damn good defender. His length, size, and footwork is going to enable him to be an elite defender in time. He hit 3 of 4 FTs and 1 of 2 from the floor. Where in God's name did you see him playing poorly. Lmao what a fraud. His teammates are horrible. They had 26 turnovers!!!!!! 26!!!!! Ntilikina had 1. Nice try. You clearly have an agenda. The kid played SG and nobody looks his way when he did. He had issues as a PG. I don't think a single point was scored off of him. You give scouts that game tape and they come away extremely impressed. Your evaluation skills are lacking son. Give it up

Under no circumstance was that a good game for him. You just make it seem more like you never watch these games and comment anyway with each comment. Anyway, I never said anything about he was a bad player, or would be a bad player. I never once said he was anything but a good player for his age, and I actually am being factual, as he didn't play well in that game.

True. Rodriguez situation was a far from perfect example. He did return to europe visibly rusty though.

A perfect example just recently, of a EuroLeague player going to the NBA and coming back to EuroLeague a worse player, is Kostas Papanikoloau. And not playing really isn't much of an issue there, as he was in the Rockets' rotation. But he definitely came back to Europe a worse player after being in the NBA.

I don't know how many people have been able to watch Ntilikina's second game against Aris but he's shown a lot in this crucial game.

Ntilikina played really well in the 1st quarter of the game, but didn't do anything much at all the rest of the game. His team won the game, but was eliminated from the playoffs on the aggregate, after they choked at the end of the game.

How different is Frank to a guy like Dante Exum?

I think it's pretty obvious Ntilikina is more talented and skilled.

Here is game 2 of the BCL playoff series between Ntilikina's French team (SIG) and Greek team Aris. SIG was eliminated. As I said before, Ntilikina did really well in the first quarter, and did hardly anything after that, which is typical inconsistency of an 18 year old.

Watch on YouTube

[Mirotic12]

double post

[SportsGuy8]

Ntilikina is the type of player who's probably going to be better in the NBA than in Europe. That's something to keep in mind when assessing him.

Just because he probably wouldn't be able to get any minutes on a top European team right now (and rightfully so), doesn't mean he couldn't get any on some NBA teams (even RIGHT NOW). There are teams and coaches in the NBA that would give him minutes just by his individual defensive abilities alone ...

NBA game is a lot simpler, some is because of the rules, but also because the players are obviously more talented, so there's less need for really complex schemes.

[No-Man]

Papanikolaou has been hurt now that he is back on track he is as good as ever for Oly, he is a candidate for DPOY this season.
Rodriguez was nobody before he left and was the MVP of the EL when he got back and a top5-10 offensive talent in the league for 2-3 years.

[UcanUwill]

It looks Papanikolaou completely lost his shot since he stepped on NBA court. But his defense has become elite. He picked up a lot training with NBA stars.

Most Euros who come back from the NBA, they come back much better. Training and playing against the best of the best does it for you.
Sergio is a good example. He was truly nobody when he first came to the NBA, came back noticeable better, Euro game was almost too slow for him, he was awesome.
Nando De Colo is another good example. He was decent Euroleague player when he left, but he came back as a dominant superstar.
Macijauskas was a star, but even he came back with a far better ISO skills.
Good recent example is Ognjen Kuzmic, he came back noticeable stronger and tougher.

Thats why coming to the NBA is a good thing, even if you dont stick around, you pick up a lot of things.

[coutournant]

Ntilikina is the type of player who's probably going to be better in the NBA than in Europe. That's something to keep in mind when assessing him.

Just because he probably wouldn't be able to get any minutes on a top European team right now (and rightfully so), doesn't mean he couldn't get any on some NBA teams (even RIGHT NOW). There are teams and coaches in the NBA that would give him minutes just by his individual defensive abilities alone ...

NBA game is a lot simpler, some is because of the rules, but also because the players are obviously more talented, so there's less need for really complex schemes.

Another reason is that in Europe teams can be relegated in inferior divisions if they don't win games, and it is often an economic disaster. In NBA, coaches can let young players make mistakes without being scared for their jobs, in Europe this can be very dangerous.

[JPF]

It looks Papanikolaou completely lost his shot since he stepped on NBA court. But his defense has become elite. He picked up a lot training with NBA stars.

Most Euros who come back from the NBA, they come back much better. Training and playing against the best of the best does it for you.
Sergio is a good example. He was truly nobody when he first came to the NBA, came back noticeable better, Euro game was almost too slow for him, he was awesome.
Nando De Colo is another good example. He was decent Euroleague player when he left, but he came back as a dominant superstar.
Macijauskas was a star, but even he came back with a far better ISO skills.
Good recent example is Ognjen Kuzmic, he came back noticeable stronger and tougher.

Thats why coming to the NBA is a good thing, even if you dont stick around, you pick up a lot of things.

Are you sure?
Since I remember Rodriguez being really rusty the first year he came back from NBA and he was even dropped from Spanish NT in some period behind Cabezas, teenage Rubio and injury plagued Raul Lopez!? After a while with Madrid his progress was exponential, but in first few months back in Real those performances were far from the case.

Nando De Colo, just remember 2013 eurobasket, when it mattered and he didn't get set for some free 3 point shots.
That's the rust I am talking about. Noone claims they're now bad players, they haven't learned anything from NBA or that they didn't evolve eventually, but without getting regular playing time at games in NBA, players there lack 5 on 5 badly. NBDL improved that by a lot, but there are some different issues.

[SportsGuy8]

Ntilikina is the type of player who's probably going to be better in the NBA than in Europe. That's something to keep in mind when assessing him.

Just because he probably wouldn't be able to get any minutes on a top European team right now (and rightfully so), doesn't mean he couldn't get any on some NBA teams (even RIGHT NOW). There are teams and coaches in the NBA that would give him minutes just by his individual defensive abilities alone ...

NBA game is a lot simpler, some is because of the rules, but also because the players are obviously more talented, so there's less need for really complex schemes.

Another reason is that in Europe teams can be relegated in inferior divisions if they don't win games, and it is often an economic disaster. In NBA, coaches can let young players make mistakes without being scared for their jobs, in Europe this can be very dangerous.

True. Not to mention that in the NBA, teams even BENEFIT from continuing to be bad for a while longer, so developing young players is quite often a win-win situation for them ...

In Europe, basically everyone is in win-now mode.

[UcanUwill]

Ntilikina is the type of player who's probably going to be better in the NBA than in Europe. That's something to keep in mind when assessing him.

Just because he probably wouldn't be able to get any minutes on a top European team right now (and rightfully so), doesn't mean he couldn't get any on some NBA teams (even RIGHT NOW). There are teams and coaches in the NBA that would give him minutes just by his individual defensive abilities alone ...

NBA game is a lot simpler, some is because of the rules, but also because the players are obviously more talented, so there's less need for really complex schemes.

Another reason is that in Europe teams can be relegated in inferior divisions if they don't win games, and it is often an economic disaster. In NBA, coaches can let young players make mistakes without being scared for their jobs, in Europe this can be very dangerous.

True. Not to mention that in the NBA, teams even BENEFIT from continuing to be bad for a while longer, so developing young players is quite often a win-win situation for them ...

In Europe, basically everyone is in win-now mode.

Yeah, thats a better point. Relegation isn't that relevant to those top teams with highest budgets, but still everyone plays to win. There is no such thing as playing and inferior young guy just because development. Those guys are either loaned out or play on a team2 or just playing a small role.

I haven't watched SIG games, but I guess it makes sense that Frank is not primary ball handler on that team and that he plays off ball (and somewhat struggles)

[SportsGuy8]

Another reason is that in Europe teams can be relegated in inferior divisions if they don't win games, and it is often an economic disaster. In NBA, coaches can let young players make mistakes without being scared for their jobs, in Europe this can be very dangerous.

True. Not to mention that in the NBA, teams even BENEFIT from continuing to be bad for a while longer, so developing young players is quite often a win-win situation for them ...

In Europe, basically everyone is in win-now mode.

Yeah, thats a better point. Relegation isn't that relevant to those top teams with highest budgets, but still everyone plays to win. There is no such thing as playing and inferior young guy just because development. Those guys are either loaned out or play on a team2 or just playing a small role.

I haven't watched SIG games, but I guess it makes sense that Frank is not primary ball handler on that team and that he plays off ball (and somewhat struggles)

For the top teams, every loss to a lesser team on paper basically sends them into panic-mode, so winning games can arguably be even more important to them than to teams who face relegation. But on the other hand, a relegation can send some team into bankruptcy quite easily. Either way, winning is important.

Yeah, exactly. If someone needs development minutes, teams simply either loan him out to some lesser team, or put him on their B team.

Btw., what's Ntilikina's buyout situation? I read somewhere he still has another 2 years on his contract, is that true? If it's true, that's actually big incentive for his team to play him. His team's budget for 2016/17 is 6.7 million EUR, so any buyout should easily reach at least 10% of that, which should be huge for a team.

So much for the talk that they're not giving him major minutes on purpose ...

[jrob23]

Another reason is that in Europe teams can be relegated in inferior divisions if they don't win games, and it is often an economic disaster. In NBA, coaches can let young players make mistakes without being scared for their jobs, in Europe this can be very dangerous.

True. Not to mention that in the NBA, teams even BENEFIT from continuing to be bad for a while longer, so developing young players is quite often a win-win situation for them ...

In Europe, basically everyone is in win-now mode.

Yeah, thats a better point. Relegation isn't that relevant to those top teams with highest budgets, but still everyone plays to win. There is no such thing as playing and inferior young guy just because development. Those guys are either loaned out or play on a team2 or just playing a small role.

I haven't watched SIG games, but I guess it makes sense that Frank is not primary ball handler on that team and that he plays off ball (and somewhat struggles)

but there is. Because Ntilikina is the best player on the floor. Which is in essence what we're debating. I say he's a NBA lottery pick who should be starting in Europe based on talent. You think he's not worth starting over absolute scrubs that would have a tough time making a top college team. Agree to disagree. But when the NBA draft comes around he'll be drafted...not those scrubs starting over him. If that isn't proof enough I don't know what is