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Kon Knueppel

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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#121 » by JMAC3 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 5:27 pm

RipCity71252 wrote:And as already included in my response, I know Kon has self creation limitations.

I would be warry of putting huge stock in a 21 shot sample by an otherwise elite 19 year old shooter though.

I think he'll be fine pull up shooter in time. Not of the 1v1 pull up variety as he just doesn't have that type of pop or rise on his jumper but I wouldn't put developing a step back 3 past him with his strength, footwork and release point with more reps.

And if teams play back on him in pnr which he rarely saw in college, I think he'll be good in those situations as well although he definitely leans drive in those situations right now.


Well I would argue to put stock in the 21 pulls ups because the number is so low because he isn't good at it.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#122 » by greg4012 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 5:44 pm

RipCity71252 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
RipCity71252 wrote:My eyes see otherwise. Most are through the flow or in pick and roll.

And I'd argue his assist rate is deflated playing with three other ball handlers in Duke's starting lineup.

https://youtu.be/CmqZ89p3SDo?si=925Y7Is0oIsxIiRN


Are we watching the same video?

More than half of these assists are the pre-designed spam play of dribble hand off on the empty side with Maluach where he throws it up to the 7-2 guy who is 5 inches taller than everyone?

He is a straight line driver, who is not good at beating his man. The few times he tries to change direction on the drive, he literally fell to the ground (4:35). He has absolutely no wiggle or shake to his game, along with no vertical pop and a below average first step. So many times in this video where he gets within 5 feet of the rim vs 1 defender, the dribble gets picked up because the advantage is lost.

The eye test is nothing special, nothing that I feel like you can replicate in the NBA that will provide above average playmaking. That along with the very mediocre 15.7% assist rate and I feel pretty confident playmaking is neutral at best at the next level.

More than half is a big overstatement but that's besides the point. And don't know why we are denigrating Kon's passing because he was on a good team with good spacing and lob catcher. That pass is still a very high value pass and he executed it with great touch and placement.

It's not like he was Evan Turner standing out top hitting guys off pin downs. And Kon has shown in other contexts to make every pass in the book.

Will his self-creation limitations limit his passing potential...very likely. But for the role that he's going to play in the NBA, I think he's going to very likely clear the neutral passing threshold.


"for the role that he's going to play in the NBA" being very key qualifier here. Lots of posts popping up getting a little carried away with regards to what role/function Kon can play in the NBA on a quality team IMO. That's where pushback comes.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#123 » by greg4012 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 5:47 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
RipCity71252 wrote:And as already included in my response, I know Kon has self creation limitations.

I would be warry of putting huge stock in a 21 shot sample by an otherwise elite 19 year old shooter though.

I think he'll be fine pull up shooter in time. Not of the 1v1 pull up variety as he just doesn't have that type of pop or rise on his jumper but I wouldn't put developing a step back 3 past him with his strength, footwork and release point with more reps.

And if teams play back on him in pnr which he rarely saw in college, I think he'll be good in those situations as well although he definitely leans drive in those situations right now.


Well I would argue to put stock in the 21 pulls ups because the number is so low because he isn't good at it.


Agreed. It's not like it was something that was schematically disallowed in Duke's offense. Each of Cooper Flagg and Tyrese Proctor had a notably higher percentage of pull-up 3s on the season
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#124 » by RipCity71252 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 5:47 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
RipCity71252 wrote:And as already included in my response, I know Kon has self creation limitations.

I would be warry of putting huge stock in a 21 shot sample by an otherwise elite 19 year old shooter though.

I think he'll be fine pull up shooter in time. Not of the 1v1 pull up variety as he just doesn't have that type of pop or rise on his jumper but I wouldn't put developing a step back 3 past him with his strength, footwork and release point with more reps.

And if teams play back on him in pnr which he rarely saw in college, I think he'll be good in those situations as well although he definitely leans drive in those situations right now.


Well I would argue to put stock in the 21 pulls ups because the number is so low because he isn't good at it.

You could. And I'm arguing that after watching Kon across multiple contexts, that I'm more bullish on that part of his game developing in the future.

We'll see.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#125 » by mattg » Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:41 am

RipCity71252 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
RipCity71252 wrote:And as already included in my response, I know Kon has self creation limitations.

I would be warry of putting huge stock in a 21 shot sample by an otherwise elite 19 year old shooter though.

I think he'll be fine pull up shooter in time. Not of the 1v1 pull up variety as he just doesn't have that type of pop or rise on his jumper but I wouldn't put developing a step back 3 past him with his strength, footwork and release point with more reps.

And if teams play back on him in pnr which he rarely saw in college, I think he'll be good in those situations as well although he definitely leans drive in those situations right now.


Well I would argue to put stock in the 21 pulls ups because the number is so low because he isn't good at it.

You could. And I'm arguing that after watching Kon across multiple contexts, that I'm more bullish on that part of his game developing in the future.

We'll see.


And I watched him his entire HS career. Kon played on very, very good HS teams relative to competition, but his entire HS career, if his team was slumping offensively and needed to create a shot Kon absolutely COULD NOT do that. He absolutely would refuse to take pull up jumpers under any circumstance and would not just go and get the ball out top and either isolate or call for a ball screen and make a play. He would just let the team run their continuity sets and look for a shot in the flow, traits that served him greatly on stacked AAU squads and at Duke. However, everyone in Wisconsin viewed how highly Kon was ranked as a recruit compared to all the other kids who have come out and been successful in the last decade somewhat suspiciously, as he flat out did not have the ability to carry an offense in HS, just objectively worse in that regard than all other top prospects coming out of Wisconsin HS recently.

Now, maybe he's able to develop a pull up game and potentially some self creation down the line, but he absolutely does not get credit in a positive manner for those things now based on his HS tape and how ineffective he was in college at that specific thing.

For reference, this is what I posted about him on the Bucks board back in fall of 2023 when the Badgers missed out on Kon and some people were asking how he compared to Herro.

Kon is nowhere in the same vicinity as Herro in high school. Herro was super underrated to be fair, and should have been rated in the top 20 for sure instead of like 40th or whatever he was, but Kon doesn't have any of the on-ball juice that Herro had nor the aggressiveness. Teams can limit Kon from touching the ball and he struggles to get open at times. There's times I've watched Kon where his team is struggling offensively and just wondered why doesn't he go get the ball, ask for a ball screen, or just pull up from deep over a defender who is too short to contest him.

Herro otoh was seeing box and ones and gimmick defenses starting as a sophomore and was just levels ahead offensively in pretty much every single category. Kon's a surprisingly nice defender, bigger/bulkier than Herro was, very fundamentally sound, and his shot is pure, but Herro was on an entirely different level as a HS player. Just look at their scoring volume difference and that by itself tells the story.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#126 » by RipCity71252 » Thu Apr 10, 2025 6:02 pm

mattg wrote:
RipCity71252 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Well I would argue to put stock in the 21 pulls ups because the number is so low because he isn't good at it.

You could. And I'm arguing that after watching Kon across multiple contexts, that I'm more bullish on that part of his game developing in the future.

We'll see.


And I watched him his entire HS career. Kon played on very, very good HS teams relative to competition, but his entire HS career, if his team was slumping offensively and needed to create a shot Kon absolutely COULD NOT do that. He absolutely would refuse to take pull up jumpers under any circumstance and would not just go and get the ball out top and either isolate or call for a ball screen and make a play. He would just let the team run their continuity sets and look for a shot in the flow, traits that served him greatly on stacked AAU squads and at Duke. However, everyone in Wisconsin viewed how highly Kon was ranked as a recruit compared to all the other kids who have come out and been successful in the last decade somewhat suspiciously, as he flat out did not have the ability to carry an offense in HS, just objectively worse in that regard than all other top prospects coming out of Wisconsin HS recently.

Now, maybe he's able to develop a pull up game and potentially some self creation down the line, but he absolutely does not get credit in a positive manner for those things now based on his HS tape and how ineffective he was in college at that specific thing.

For reference, this is what I posted about him on the Bucks board back in fall of 2023 when the Badgers missed out on Kon and some people were asking how he compared to Herro.

Kon is nowhere in the same vicinity as Herro in high school. Herro was super underrated to be fair, and should have been rated in the top 20 for sure instead of like 40th or whatever he was, but Kon doesn't have any of the on-ball juice that Herro had nor the aggressiveness. Teams can limit Kon from touching the ball and he struggles to get open at times. There's times I've watched Kon where his team is struggling offensively and just wondered why doesn't he go get the ball, ask for a ball screen, or just pull up from deep over a defender who is too short to contest him.

Herro otoh was seeing box and ones and gimmick defenses starting as a sophomore and was just levels ahead offensively in pretty much every single category. Kon's a surprisingly nice defender, bigger/bulkier than Herro was, very fundamentally sound, and his shot is pure, but Herro was on an entirely different level as a HS player. Just look at their scoring volume difference and that by itself tells the story.

Thanks for the insight.

Agreed on Herro >> Kon in terms of offensive ceiling. I was a massive Herro fan and thought he had +2 or +3 ORAPM type ceiling (and he's exceeded that this year) when he was at Kentucky. Herro just had way more of a scorers mentality in HS and at Kentucky compared to Kon even with the comparitive college usage rates. More dynamic with the ball and Herro's footwork, rise and willingness to take tough shots off the bounce far exceed Kon's at same age.

Kon overall just has more of a blend in type personality and game and that very likely carries over into the NBA.

But to the pull up game specifically, I've seen enough from Kon in EYBL settings to believe that it's a mentality thing rather than a skill issue. Probably a physical thing too like mentioned previously. Herro's ability to rise and contort in the air allows him to access shots that Kon will never be able to.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#127 » by JMAC3 » Fri May 9, 2025 2:49 pm

Kon Kneuppel 2.7 apg 15.7 assist rate
Tre Johnson 2.7 apg 16.5 assist rate

Why is one of these guys getting comped as a ball hog, Cam Thomas esq.
The other getting showered as an underrated playmaker?
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#128 » by ReggiesKnicks » Fri May 9, 2025 3:12 pm

JMAC3 wrote:Kon Kneuppel 2.7 apg 15.7 assist rate
Tre Johnson 2.7 apg 16.5 assist rate

Why is one of these guys getting comped as a ball hog, Cam Thomas esq.
The other getting showered as an underrated playmaker?


Could it be because one has a 30% USG% and one has a 21% USG%?
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#129 » by Catchall » Fri May 9, 2025 3:15 pm

You want an old-school, total throwback comp for Kon Knueppel? How about Chris Mullin at St. Johns in he early 80s.

Chris Mullin's freshman year: 17 pts, 3.2 rebs, 3 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.2 blocks. Mullin was a 90% FT shooter by his junior year. There was no 3pt line back then. Mullin was a 6'6", 200-lb., SF/SG.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#130 » by JMAC3 » Fri May 9, 2025 4:33 pm

Can someone show me their 5 most impressive plays from Kon Kneuppel this year? Like if you had to sell someone on him becoming a star what 5 plays are you using?
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#131 » by Chi town » Fri May 9, 2025 5:05 pm

JMAC3 wrote:Can someone show me their 5 most impressive plays from Kon Kneuppel this year? Like if you had to sell someone on him becoming a star what 5 plays are you using?


I don’t think anyone thinks star.

High level glue guy role player. Winning player type.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#132 » by JMAC3 » Fri May 9, 2025 5:12 pm

Chi town wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Can someone show me their 5 most impressive plays from Kon Kneuppel this year? Like if you had to sell someone on him becoming a star what 5 plays are you using?


I don’t think anyone thinks star.

High level glue guy role player. Winning player type.


Even still what are his 5 most impressive plays from the year? Is there a really good drive? really good block? really good crossover and shot?

I feel like I watched a 10 min highlight and not one play stood out after.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#133 » by Upperclass » Fri May 9, 2025 7:47 pm

He's as much of a star as Devin Booker was coming out. He is imo, a star(ter) in the NBA. Wouldnt be surprised if he ends up in Dallas and looks amazing.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#134 » by tester551 » Fri May 9, 2025 9:14 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Chi town wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Can someone show me their 5 most impressive plays from Kon Kneuppel this year? Like if you had to sell someone on him becoming a star what 5 plays are you using?


I don’t think anyone thinks star.

High level glue guy role player. Winning player type.


Even still what are his 5 most impressive plays from the year? Is there a really good drive? really good block? really good crossover and shot?

I feel like I watched a 10 min highlight and not one play stood out after.

IMO. He's a very solid player, and does a lot of 'little' things that help teams win.
The more I watch him, the more I see Grayson Allen as his NBA comp (with maybe a bit better shooting). A very good role player, who the typical NBA fan under-rates.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#135 » by JMAC3 » Mon May 12, 2025 3:35 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Chi town wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Can someone show me their 5 most impressive plays from Kon Kneuppel this year? Like if you had to sell someone on him becoming a star what 5 plays are you using?


I don’t think anyone thinks star.

High level glue guy role player. Winning player type.


Even still what are his 5 most impressive plays from the year? Is there a really good drive? really good block? really good crossover and shot?

I feel like I watched a 10 min highlight and not one play stood out after.


From highlights alone I think he would normally be the 15th pick type of talent. I know people love the efficiency, but efficiency isn't a skill. You don't just say oh well he was efficient in college so that is bound to carry over. You are better off betting on actual skills, physical advantages etc..

Kneuppel has zero bag. His moves consist of catch and shoot threes, drives to the rim where he pump fakes 2 times to try to get the big to mistime his jump, getting cutoff to the basket and spinning into a 8 foot shot and then sometimes when he gets cutoff he has the luxury of throwing the ball near the rim to the biggest player on the court by 5+ inches.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#136 » by mattg » Mon May 12, 2025 3:57 pm

I outlined Kon's self creation issues above, but you're minimizing what he is good at. While he's not an off the dribble shooter, Kon has absolutely excellent shooting fundamentals and mechanics, he will 100% be a great catch and shoot guy in the NBA. That's a skill, it's not just efficiency like how some guys shoot well statistically. Those who actually know can see that with him.

He's not a creative or advanced ball handler, but he's strong enough to attack close outs effectively especially with how hard defenders will close out on him. He has enough bulk physically to be able to shield the ball from defenders and get his shoulder past them/keep them on his hip when he gets a half step. He's also a guy who is just smart on the court, he doesn't make mistakes and isn't going to kill you with bad plays. He can make reads and is willing to move the ball quickly, which means he will play well with better talent.

He is in no way a star, but he definitely has a role in the league, and since he's young there is a path to improve and be more like a Joe Ingles than just a Sam Hauser.
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#137 » by JMAC3 » Mon May 12, 2025 4:43 pm

mattg wrote:I outlined Kon's self creation issues above, but you're minimizing what he is good at. While he's not an off the dribble shooter, Kon has absolutely excellent shooting fundamentals and mechanics, he will 100% be a great catch and shoot guy in the NBA. That's a skill, it's not just efficiency like how some guys shoot well statistically. Those who actually know can see that with him.

He's not a creative or advanced ball handler, but he's strong enough to attack close outs effectively especially with how hard defenders will close out on him. He has enough bulk physically to be able to shield the ball from defenders and get his shoulder past them/keep them on his hip when he gets a half step. He's also a guy who is just smart on the court, he doesn't make mistakes and isn't going to kill you with bad plays. He can make reads and is willing to move the ball quickly, which means he will play well with better talent.

He is in no way a star, but he definitely has a role in the league, and since he's young there is a path to improve and be more like a Joe Ingles than just a Sam Hauser.


He has enough bulk physically to shield off COLLEGE Defenders. He is going to go from playing on the biggest college team in the country to being an average size wing in the NBA. He also is going to have real shot blockers at the rim every night instead of the 6-8 and 6-9 centers half of college basketball runs out on a nightly basis, his lack of length and explosiveness is going to get exposed. He isn't overpowering the majority of NBA 2s and 3s.

I agree the shooting should be great, but these limitations are going to be issues on the defensive end as well. The dude has no wiggle in his hips, which is one of the main reasons he isn't a good driver of the basketball, he isn't effective at changing directions or speeds which is crucial to be able to guard guys 1 on 1 on the other end. Going to have a small wingspan, low quickness, low vertical pop and bad hips those are all way more important on defense vs being 220 lbs as a wing.

Someone like Luka is a better athlete, bigger and more explosive and he can't guard anyone. Kon is going to be in trouble on the defensive side of the floor most nights.

How much value does a shooter with bad defense carry in the NBA?
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#138 » by damedash09 » Mon May 12, 2025 8:20 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#139 » by JMAC3 » Tue May 13, 2025 11:05 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:If he is smart, he would tweak his ankle in the first drill and avoid the rest, maybe he proves me wrong.


Read on Twitter


lol


I mean I hate to say I called it but yeaaaaaaa
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Re: Kon Knueppel 

Post#140 » by JRoy » Wed May 14, 2025 12:57 am

Dumpling with a j
Edrees wrote:
JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all


I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.

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