2025 NBA Draft Class

[EvanZ]

Watched some Beringer today. So big. Mostly bad. My spidey sense was giving me Wiseman vibes. I know he’s young but like he’s not going to magically become Sorber level IQ at the next level. He’s also slower than I’d like. Very big though. Needs to learn how to control his body better. He seems to fall down a lot. Not sure he’s physical enough. That was one of Wiseman’s biggest problems. For such a big man he was way too gentle.

Would you really expect someone who has only played the sport for 4 years to have an extremely high basketball IQ?

No, and I would expect they never learn at this age. The cake is baked.

[EvanZ]

I was told for several years Wiseman would "figure it out". He never did.

[EvanZ]

Really interesting physical comparison:

6-foot-11, 234.8 lbs, 7-foot-4.5 wingspan, 9-foot-3 standing reach, 9.75 hand size = Joan Beringer
6-foot-9.75, 236 lbs, 7-foot-5.25 wingspan, 9-foot-2 standing reach, 10.00 hand size = Jaren Jackson Jr.

Why is this really interesting? He's obviously big. Are you suggesting if he's very close to the exact measurements of JJJ that he is going to be the same player? Does he foul at a high rate because he's so similarly sized to Jaren Jackson? I don't understand the physical mechanism that would cause such a behavior.

[Klomp]

I was told for several years Wiseman would "figure it out". He never did.

Did Wiseman start playing basketball at age 15?

[Klomp]

Really interesting physical comparison:

6-foot-11, 234.8 lbs, 7-foot-4.5 wingspan, 9-foot-3 standing reach, 9.75 hand size = Joan Beringer
6-foot-9.75, 236 lbs, 7-foot-5.25 wingspan, 9-foot-2 standing reach, 10.00 hand size = Jaren Jackson Jr.

Why is this really interesting? He's obviously big. Are you suggesting if he's very close to the exact measurements of JJJ that he is going to be the same player? Does he foul at a high rate because he's so similarly sized to Jaren Jackson? I don't understand the physical mechanism that would cause such a behavior.

Are you really that dense? People compare physical traits between players all the time.

[bucknut]

Watched some Beringer today. So big. Mostly bad. My spidey sense was giving me Wiseman vibes. I know he’s young but like he’s not going to magically become Sorber level IQ at the next level. He’s also slower than I’d like. Very big though. Needs to learn how to control his body better. He seems to fall down a lot. Not sure he’s physical enough. That was one of Wiseman’s biggest problems. For such a big man he was way too gentle.

Would you really expect someone who has only played the sport for 4 years to have an extremely high basketball IQ?

TBF we have a lot of players get drafted with little basketball experience and they just do not improve enough to be functional in the NBA. I did catch some Beringer games this year and I like his defensive instincts, but I think it is pretty fair to be skeptical.

good instincts ? See, I think his athleticism and on ball defense is all star tantalizing - but his instincts make him borderline undrafteable.

He looks like a chicken with his head cut off. The awareness and anticipation off ball is lacking. Whe he is in ball you man position he doesn't anticipate the off ball pass and closeout hard - he is still processing where the ball is - then goes only wants the pass is received - and then he half jumps from 4 feet away not even helping with the contest - completely looks like he is playing a different sport.

I don't think that can ever be taught. Instincts are mostly innate.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I think they reached on Beringer because they can afford to bring him along slowly. I did think it was a good sign for both Dillingham and Shannon, Jr. that they didn't take guys at their positions

[SNPA]

I was told for several years Wiseman would "figure it out". He never did.

This is an important point in a Yang related discussion. Yang sees the floor and can read the game quickly, he already shows major signs of figuring it out. That’s why he is a better pick than an athletic monster who can’t even tell where he’s at on the court, none less where others are and what’s about to come next.

Teams should be happy to pay for the brain chip, the processing power. That’s the key as long as it’s matched with reasonable size/athleticism. That’s why Yang got drafted 16.

[NO-KG-AI]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

[Chuck Everett]

James Wiseman could have been useful at his size if he just excelled in the dunker's spot (catch and finish around the rim). The fact that he couldn't says a lot about him. For all of Yang's ballhandling, etc..., if he can just nail the dunker's spot, he will have a long NBA career.

[EvanZ]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

[EvanZ]

James Wiseman could have been useful at his size if he just excelled in the dunker's spot (catch and finish around the rim). The fact that he couldn't says a lot about him. For all of Yang's ballhandling, etc..., if he can just nail the dunker's spot, he will have a long NBA career.

Bro if you think all he was missing was standing in the dunkers spot you did not watch him more than 5 minutes. He’s so so so far away from understanding basketball on either end. But he was much worse on defense than he was on offense. He was and remains unplayable for a winning team. It’s not “yeah but he didn’t want to dunk”.

[NO-KG-AI]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

None lol. Joel Embiid is the most recent late starter that was a major success(im sure im forgetting someone). His rate at which he learned and mastered new skills was astounding, but I still don’t think he’s some high IQ guy.

[eminence]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

Guys who were considered low IQ at their level prior to the NBA? Or just examples of guys who made clear leaps?

I wouldn't expect you'll see guys going from 'bad' to 'genius' very often in any area, probably even less likely in very broad areas like 'IQ'.

Nash wasn't considered low IQ in college, but clearly made a significant leap in understanding at some point during his NBA career. 25 year old Nash wasn't much worse than 35 year old Nash due to athleticism or physical skill, that's for sure.

[NO-KG-AI]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

Guys who were considered low IQ at their level prior to the NBA? Or just examples of guys who made clear leaps?

I wouldn't expect you'll see guys going from 'bad' to 'genius' very often in any area, probably even less likely in very broad areas like 'IQ'.

Nash wasn't considered low IQ in college, but clearly made a significant leap in understanding at some point during his NBA career. 25 year old Nash wasn't much worse than 35 year old Nash due to athleticism or physical skill, that's for sure.

On the contrary, Nash was drafted for his passing, IQ, court vision and overall ability to create for others. No one thought he was an MVP or he’d have gone much higher, but his IQ and floor game were not only strengths, but they were his calling cards.

[eminence]

Guys who were considered low IQ at their level prior to the NBA? Or just examples of guys who made clear leaps?

I wouldn't expect you'll see guys going from 'bad' to 'genius' very often in any area, probably even less likely in very broad areas like 'IQ'.

Nash wasn't considered low IQ in college, but clearly made a significant leap in understanding at some point during his NBA career. 25 year old Nash wasn't much worse than 35 year old Nash due to athleticism or physical skill, that's for sure.

On the contrary, Nash was drafted for his passing, IQ, court vision and overall ability to create for others. No one thought he was an MVP or he’d have gone much higher, but his IQ and floor game were not only strengths, but they were his calling cards.

I wouldn't say contrary.

I agreed with the base premise - guys don't make the jump from outright bad to 'genius' equivalent in any area. And then I gave the best example I could think of a guy jumping to 'genius' IQ from clear sub-genius IQ.

I avoided examples like Manu/Jokic/Draymond that are probably more examples of poor scouting than them developing to an outlier level while in the NBA.

Jimmy Butler/Rudy Gobert are other guys I'd consider developing well above expected ranges in terms of 'IQ'. Defensive for Rudy obviously, like Nash was offensive. Butler more overall. Among guys who we can kind of remember, I'm sure there are earlier guys who'd fit in.

High schoolers would also feel like a bit of a cop out.

[Klomp]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

But I don't think Beringer should be classified as low IQ. He just hasn't learned everything because he is so new to the game.

Do you call your 5 year old stupid because he hasn't picked up difficult trigonometry equations? Or do you give him a break because he's so young and hasn't gotten to that level of understanding yet?

[EvanZ]

I used to love the idea of “he just started playing basketball.” Honestly after following basketball so long, those dudes end up so trash most of the time that I’m willing to miss on the very rare occasions they become studs.

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

But I don't think Beringer should be classified as low IQ. He just hasn't learned everything because he is so new to the game.

Do you call your 5 year old stupid because he hasn't picked up difficult trigonometry equations? Or do you give him a break because he's so young and hasn't gotten to that level of understanding yet?

This is the point thought. We've heard this excuse before. They are so "new to the game" so they must have a ton of upside.

The truth is more that the cake is baked very early for athletes, especially elite ones. Not only things like hand-eye coordination and other skills but decision-making especially. Imagine being thrown into a professional league where everyone has been playing their whole lives and it's the elite of the elite in the world. That's not an easy setting to learn. It's like saying, hey you don't know how to program you have a lot to learn, let's give you an internship at Google and see if you can compete with literally the best devs in world history. Talk about being thrown into the fire.

And it's not just that Beringer needs ot catch up and everyone else is standing pat. The Thomas Sorbers of the world who already have elite IQ are also adapting and getting better too. Guys like Beringer are always catching up.

Let me ask you thins. How long did it take JaVale McGee to become playable? Dude had all the tools in the world. But he was just such a dummy. You can't really ever fix that.

[Klomp]

I’m also curious who are the low IQ guys that actually became genius basketball players, figured everything out and became All-Stars? Who do people think are the case studies for this career arc?

But I don't think Beringer should be classified as low IQ. He just hasn't learned everything because he is so new to the game.

Do you call your 5 year old stupid because he hasn't picked up difficult trigonometry equations? Or do you give him a break because he's so young and hasn't gotten to that level of understanding yet?

This is the point thought. We've heard this excuse before. They are so "new to the game" so they must have a ton of upside.

The truth is more that the cake is baked very early for athletes, especially elite ones. Not only things like hand-eye coordination and other skills but decision-making especially. Imagine being thrown into a professional league where everyone has been playing their whole lives and it's the elite of the elite in the world. That's not an easy setting to learn. It's like saying, hey you don't know how to program you have a lot to learn, let's give you an internship at Google and see if you can compete with literally the best devs in world history. Talk about being thrown into the fire.

And it's not just that Beringer needs ot catch up and everyone else is standing pat. The Thomas Sorbers of the world who already have elite IQ are also adapting and getting better too. Guys like Beringer are always catching up.

Let me ask you thins. How long did it take JaVale McGee to become playable? Dude had all the tools in the world. But he was just such a dummy. You can't really ever fix that.

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing JaVale McGee had played basketball all his life. And IQ or not, he was good enough to be in the league for 16 years. That's a heckuva career, and I would be thrilled if Beringer plays that long.

Giannis started playing basketball at age 13, 5 years before he was drafted. Half the time, his highlights before being drafted looked like someone who didn't know what he was doing. Do you feel like he was a bad pick for the Bucks and is still playing catch up?

[eminence]

NBA history isn't that short on 18.5 year old bigs developing significantly in most every manner - Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Giannis at the top end but plenty more who turned out plenty fine for what you're hoping for from a #17 pick. None of those guys were on top of the world at that age (Robinson in particular wasn't even an NBA prospect yet).

I don't know near enough about Beringer to say what should be expected, but it's clear significant development from here has happened before.

His new teammate Rudy certainly wasn't thought of as having genius level rim protection instincts at 18.5. Hell he wasn't thought of that highly when he was drafted at 21 years old.

An aside - draft scouting reports have to be read in the context of the grade given - saying a guy you're giving a late 1st round grade has great defensive instincts is clearly different from saying a #1 pick has great defensive instincts. Nobody remotely thought Rudy would be the best rim protector of the era - it's either an example of poor scouting or a good example of the significant IQ development you're looking for.