Luka Doncic part II

[pacersGM]

Because you keep trying to convince us that there's no way that x can happen and that y can never ever be improved because currently it's not on high level. That's why, your posts are extremely irritating. He keeps proving you wrong and then you just find another thing to pick on and bring up until he masters/improves it, then you hide for a few weeks and come up with another.

This video you posted is focusing only and solely on Eurobasket. That was his 1st time playing a major role and honestly he exceeded all expectations there, nobody thought he'd be that good (because according to many, he was a finished product and couldn't progress much more). If you would stop just watching youtube videos and watch some actual games from Doncic, you'd know how big of a progress he's made since September. Everyone and their grandmas was pointing out during Eurobasket that he's too predictable, that he doesn't use a midrange jumper and does step back threes too much. Including me. And that was correct. But since then he changed that A LOT. He added midrange game to his repertoire (obviously still a WIP), he stopped relying 90% of the time on his stepback threes, he gets past his defender, but pretty much never chooses to finish at the rim (what I believe the reasons for that are, I explained in previous post and since you think "3sec rule is bull" - that's exactly why it's so hard to discuss with you).

He can't get past anyone?

https://youtu.be/9sPxV4YGNa0?t=1m48s

But this probably won't count (even though this happened more than a year ago, when he was 17 and a 5-10 mpg type of backup player). Do you notice what the difference here is? There's entirely empty space inside the box (compare it to pretty much all the situations in your video, where there's always 4-6 people inside the box). You really don't understand that this is a huge difference between Euro and NBA? The 3sec rule and bigger court, which adds this extra space. Luka is not nearly as bad (he's no freak) as some of you are trying to present him and if you'd watch him on regular basis, you'd appreciate the progress he's making and realize that what stood true few months ago is many cases doesn't anymore.

thats whack man you still after a year cant forget i "predicted" what doncic will and wont be able to do in the nba. thats kinda pathetic, as there was no where a lick of my supposed "arrogance" in my todays video post. i must have rubbed you the wrong way.

but i will still and again state that his athletic limitations will prevent him from becoming a nba superstar. he wont never average anything close to 7 reb and 7 assist per game in the nba, but again, he will be a solid nba starter. worthy of a nba 1 pick while considering beagley and ayton could be nbas superstar for the next 10 -13 years? i dont think so.

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.
but he is a pro, playing against men for 3-4 years now. 4 years ago beagley was a skinny dude running up and down in the aau circuit.

the nba or pro game can teach beagley and aeyton so much more then it can doncic. but you will see that in the next years.
until then, keep attacking me personaly if you find pleasure in it

[Rn5ho]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.
but he is a pro, playing against men for 3-4 years now. 4 years ago beagley was a skinny dude running up and down in the aau circuit.

And then you're surprised when people don't take you seriously

[AJ3]

Because you keep trying to convince us that there's no way that x can happen and that y can never ever be improved because currently it's not on high level. That's why, your posts are extremely irritating. He keeps proving you wrong and then you just find another thing to pick on and bring up until he masters/improves it, then you hide for a few weeks and come up with another.

This video you posted is focusing only and solely on Eurobasket. That was his 1st time playing a major role and honestly he exceeded all expectations there, nobody thought he'd be that good (because according to many, he was a finished product and couldn't progress much more). If you would stop just watching youtube videos and watch some actual games from Doncic, you'd know how big of a progress he's made since September. Everyone and their grandmas was pointing out during Eurobasket that he's too predictable, that he doesn't use a midrange jumper and does step back threes too much. Including me. And that was correct. But since then he changed that A LOT. He added midrange game to his repertoire (obviously still a WIP), he stopped relying 90% of the time on his stepback threes, he gets past his defender, but pretty much never chooses to finish at the rim (what I believe the reasons for that are, I explained in previous post and since you think "3sec rule is bull" - that's exactly why it's so hard to discuss with you).

He can't get past anyone?

https://youtu.be/9sPxV4YGNa0?t=1m48s

But this probably won't count (even though this happened more than a year ago, when he was 17 and a 5-10 mpg type of backup player). Do you notice what the difference here is? There's entirely empty space inside the box (compare it to pretty much all the situations in your video, where there's always 4-6 people inside the box). You really don't understand that this is a huge difference between Euro and NBA? The 3sec rule and bigger court, which adds this extra space. Luka is not nearly as bad (he's no freak) as some of you are trying to present him and if you'd watch him on regular basis, you'd appreciate the progress he's making and realize that what stood true few months ago is many cases doesn't anymore.

thats whack man you still after a year cant forget i "predicted" what doncic will and wont be able to do in the nba. thats kinda pathetic, as there was no where a lick of my supposed "arrogance" in my todays video post. i must have rubbed you the wrong way.

but i will still and again state that his athletic limitations will prevent him from becoming a nba superstar. he wont never average anything close to 7 reb and 7 assist per game in the nba, but again, he will be a solid nba starter. worthy of a nba 1 pick while considering beagley and ayton could be nbas superstar for the next 10 -13 years? i dont think so.

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.
but he is a pro, playing against men for 3-4 years now. 4 years ago beagley was a skinny dude running up and down in the aau circuit.

the nba or pro game can teach beagley and aeyton so much more then it can doncic. but you will see that in the next years.
until then, keep attacking me personaly if you find pleasure in it

I believe this kid can overcome any obstacle he faces, he is a born winner. Be it athleticism, be it iso 1v1 be it him being bad at defense. I believe he Will adjust his game one way or another. If there is one thing i learned about Luka it's that as soon as you think you have him figured out, he will prove you wrong and improve.

I predict if he keeps on improving at a steady pace like he has been doing for the past 2 years, sky is the limit.

[burek3]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is.

We keep hearing that every 3-6 months for couple of years already. People should stop saying that.

Well, whaddya know, you also keep coming every 3 months back to the board. Reads like a pattern to me...

[The-Power]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.

It sounds weird because it is weird. There is still so much Doncic can and will improve, basically everything from his body to his skill-set will develop. Skills in basketball aren't a dichotomous variable for which you can check just yes or no, or something with limited manifestations. It's continuous with no ceiling (aside from what is humanely impossible) and Doncic can improve his passing, shooting, ball handling, finishing and understanding of the game just as much as any other prospect.

People have been saying he won't improve much, or at a slower rate, for some time now and he keeps improving at a ridiculous pace. At some point it might be worth considering that he will indeed continue to improve just like he has with almost every month and just like any 18 year old that keeps working hard on his game. It's simply weird to think of Doncic as an exception when there's literally no valid indication of it – instead it just appears as wishful thinking on your part.

[AJ3]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.

It sounds weird because it is weird. There is still so much Doncic can and will improve, basically everything from his body to his skill-set will develop. Skills in basketball aren't a dichotomous variable for which you can check just yes or no, or something with limited manifestations. It's continuous with no ceiling (aside from what is humanely impossible) and Doncic can improve his passing, shooting, ball handling, finishing and understanding of the game just as much as any other prospect.

People have been saying he won't improve much, or at a slower rate, for some time now and he keeps improving at a ridiculous pace. At some point it might be worth considering that he will indeed continue to improve just like he has with almost every month and just like any 18 year old that keeps working hard on his game. It's simply weird to think of Doncic as an exception when there's literally no valid indication of it – instead it just appears as wishful thinking on your part.

you hit the nail on the head

[pacersGM]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.
but he is a pro, playing against men for 3-4 years now. 4 years ago beagley was a skinny dude running up and down in the aau circuit.

And then you're surprised when people don't take you seriously

i dont care if you take me seriously. you are the least of my worries. only time will tell. and you are handling yourself like you are the one knowing the future man. chill out.

you guys are getting more agressive by the week. seems like one cant point out his weaknesses anymore.

last time i checked doncic averaged almost identical rebounds and assist per game as last season. only his scoring went up (maybe lull or the other missing 3-4 starters have anything to do with that improvement also)? and you make it seem like he is putting additional 4,5 rebs & assist per season to his average.?!

keep it REAListic guys. as you can see you all are in the hype machine. my objective time is still comming in the next seasons.

[baldur]

it is not so identical. rpg went up to 6 from 4, field goal percentage, three pointer percentage and free throw percenage all have increased this season compared to last season. he used to play 20 mpg last season now he plays 27 mpg considering both euroleague and domestic league. yet he increased ppg from 8 to 17,6. what more do you ask for in seven minutes. Your hate is strong, buddy. keep calm and enjoy him.

[Ettorefm]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

Also, no disrespect to european teams, but he has no idea how better wing defenders (and he's going to be guarded by wings, he can play PG for all I care, still teams aren't stupid to match him up with a small guard) are than european wings.

It's the best position defensively on average in the league. I think it might be the longest and most athletic era for wing defenders in NBA history. Even if you take out the top 10 best defenders between 6'7 and 6'9, the next 10 guys can easily make Doncic's life a living hell if he doesn't develop a better driving game and gets his finishing at least to average numbers (look up his usage and efficiency numbers from 0-3ft).

[pacersGM]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

Also, no disrespect to european teams, but he has no idea how better wing defenders (and he's going to be guarded by wings, he can play PG for all I care, still teams aren't stupid to match him up with a small guard) are than european wings.

It's the best position defensively on average in the league. I think it might be the longest and most athletic era for wing defenders in NBA history. Even if you take out the top 10 best defenders between 6'7 and 6'9, the next 10 guys can easily make Doncic's life a living hell if he doesn't develop a better driving game and gets his finishing at least to average numbers (look up his usage and efficiency numbers from 0-3ft).

thank you.

at least one person, who is able to see a few months ahead and not feast on the "grown but slow" defenders he is facing and sadly cant get by without a pick in europe.

shure the rebounds went to 6 from almost 5. i cant wait for those steps where he will average almost a tripple double in the nba easy by most of the posters / mega fans here.

be realistic.

[J_T]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is.

We keep hearing that every 3-6 months for couple of years already. People should stop saying that.

Well, whaddya know, you also keep coming every 3 months back to the board. Reads like a pattern to me...

Reminds me of those nut heads, driving with their boats on top of the local hills, waiting for the final flood. They stay up there for couple of days and then you see them drive back. Turns out they misinterpreted one of the Bible verses, but now they finally got it, they know the date this time. Next year there they are again, driving their boats up the hill... What makes it really pathetic is that they make the same "mistake" 5 or 6 times and it's still the same boats you are seeing 7th time. Nothing changes their mind.

[Bob8]

doncic is as close to a finished product there is. sound weird to say that for a 18 year old? maybe.
but he is a pro, playing against men for 3-4 years now. 4 years ago beagley was a skinny dude running up and down in the aau circuit.

And then you're surprised when people don't take you seriously

i dont care if you take me seriously. you are the least of my worries. only time will tell. and you are handling yourself like you are the one knowing the future man. chill out.

you guys are getting more agressive by the week. seems like one cant point out his weaknesses anymore.

last time i checked doncic averaged almost identical rebounds and assist per game as last season. only his scoring went up (maybe lull or the other missing 3-4 starters have anything to do with that improvement also)? and you make it seem like he is putting additional 4,5 rebs & assist per season to his average.?!

keep it REAListic guys. as you can see you all are in the hype machine. my objective time is still comming in the next seasons.

Maybe your expectations are too high? Doncic is second in points, avg. only 1 point less than Shved, who took 60 shots more, 7th in rebounds, Clyburn is only other in top30, who’s not C/Pf and 13th in Assists, which is not bad either, knowing that Campazzo is main Pg. And if you insist that his points count would be lower, I’m sure you agree, he would have more assists if better players would play around him. And please don’t forget he’s doing that being only 18. If he won’t develop any further, he for sure won’t be a star in Nba. But if he can and there’s no reason why he can’t, ...

[Ettorefm]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

Also, no disrespect to european teams, but he has no idea how better wing defenders (and he's going to be guarded by wings, he can play PG for all I care, still teams aren't stupid to match him up with a small guard) are than european wings.

It's the best position defensively on average in the league. I think it might be the longest and most athletic era for wing defenders in NBA history. Even if you take out the top 10 best defenders between 6'7 and 6'9, the next 10 guys can easily make Doncic's life a living hell if he doesn't develop a better driving game and gets his finishing at least to average numbers (look up his usage and efficiency numbers from 0-3ft).

thank you.

at least one person, who is able to see a few months ahead and not feast on the "grown but slow" defenders he is facing and sadly cant get by without a pick in europe.

shure the rebounds went to 6 from almost 5. i cant wait for those steps where he will average almost a tripple double in the nba easy by most of the posters / mega fans here.

be realistic.

To be honest, I disagree with your point that his assists/rebounds won't translate to the NBA - I think they will, specially in this era of bigs boxing out and playmakers grabbing the rebound to start the fast break (which, unintenionally, padding their stats)

My problem is with his scoring. And to those who said "Rubio got a lot better driving once the pace-and-space game of the NBA happened", let's remind everyone that RUbio drives a lot more, is actually pretty crafty and YET one of the worst finishers efficiency--wise in the NBA from 0-3 feet.

He's absolutely awful. It's not that doncic can't get by guys - it's that when he does, his finishing is below average. But, most importantly, I want to draw attention to his number of attempts at the rim (ignoring putbacks, cuts, offensive rebounds, etc).

If a dude shot only 1 3pt per game and below average, would you say he has a 3pt game? Or that "he just prefers to play differently''? Of course not.

It's very smart of him not to do things that aren't efficient, kudos to him, but he's not Giannis or Curry (Driving/shooting, respectively) who can just focus on one thing if they want and there's nothing you can do to stop it. NBA defenses will explore that and take his 3pt shot out and give him driving opportunities, and I'm sorry, but right now there is no indication that he would be any better than Rubio at finishing. Say all you want about him, but not even Doncic fanboys think he's a great finisher.

Sure, zone defense and no 3s is a problem, but so is Rudy F*** gobert contesting your weak a** lefty layup. He'll look like Markelle Fultz did in his 4 games injuried, getting blocked every time he went to the rim or having to shoot off balance layups off the backboard just to avoid deflections

Lonzo suffers from the same problem.

[Rn5ho]

Look at the 1st 10 secs of the video, the assist he provided:

Watch on YouTube

This is the kind of teammates he currently has in his team, he barely made this easy layup and countless times this season similar shots were missed and thus Luka wouldn't be credited assists.. It's hard(er) to get assists count up if your teammates are not on par.

Nevertheless, next 15 seconds show you exactly what is claimed he's completely incapable of doing - getting past any defender/finishing at the rim.

[J_T]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

I disagree. That's just the way the game is being played today. Including NBA. When Dragic was asked which player was the hardest for him to defend, he said Chris Paul. And the reason he stated was because he ran 80 plus PnR's per game, it just killed him - and he is actually physically one of the most capable Euro guards ever in the league. Defending a really good PnR specialist is extremely annoying and exhausting. I think it's literally possible to play only PnR and 3 pointers and become MVP. There is a reason why Chris Paul was doing it and it's not because he had reached his ceiling otherwise.

[Ettorefm]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

I disagree. That's just the way the game is being played today. Including NBA. When Dragic was asked which player was the hardest for him to defend, he said Chris Paul. And the reason he stated was because he ran 80 plus PnR's per game, it just killed him - and he is actually physically one of the most capable Euro guards ever in the league. Defending a really good PnR specialist is extremely annoying and exhausting. I think it's literally possible to play only PnR and 3 pointers and become MVP. There is a reason why Chris Paul was doing it and it's not because he had reached his ceiling otherwise.

Dude, Chris Paul is one of the best iso players of the last 10 years. I've seen him win dozens of regular seson games and tens of PLAYOFF games by his own without a single pick in the 4th quarter. Driving, mid-range shots, stepbacks, fadeaways, DEEP 3 pointers. And that's just in LA, Hornets Chris Paul was top 3 in ISO i've ever seen

The thing is, Chris Paul plays within the system. But when it's not working, he'll score you 10 points in a row by playing ISO against ANYONE, no matter what strategy you try - giving him the lane, making him go left, putting a 6'9 long defender on him, putting a small, quick dude on him, giving him the 3 ball. I mean, the most inefficient shot is the midrange, and Chris Paul can win games just by pulling up from the elbow.

Nothing like Doncic, sorry. Take his 3pt shot out (long defender playing him tight), take the passing away (other teammates stay on their man), and let Doncic beat you by driving. What will happen?

We know what will happen. He'll pass the ball to another person to handle and try to get a shot by going through screens - which shows two things
1) He's f**** smart and his BBIQ is off the charts, as he knows what's best for his team to win and can adapt to any defense
2) He has clear limitations, and he's aware of it. I've watched Doncic's games, and so has most people here. Full games, not just highlights. When the pressure is on him, he gives up the ball or forces a bad shot.

Now imagine Kawhi, Giannis or Robertson on him

[Bob8]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

Also, no disrespect to european teams, but he has no idea how better wing defenders (and he's going to be guarded by wings, he can play PG for all I care, still teams aren't stupid to match him up with a small guard) are than european wings.

It's the best position defensively on average in the league. I think it might be the longest and most athletic era for wing defenders in NBA history. Even if you take out the top 10 best defenders between 6'7 and 6'9, the next 10 guys can easily make Doncic's life a living hell if he doesn't develop a better driving game and gets his finishing at least to average numbers (look up his usage and efficiency numbers from 0-3ft).

thank you.

at least one person, who is able to see a few months ahead and not feast on the "grown but slow" defenders he is facing and sadly cant get by without a pick in europe.

shure the rebounds went to 6 from almost 5. i cant wait for those steps where he will average almost a tripple double in the nba easy by most of the posters / mega fans here.

be realistic.

To be honest, I disagree with your point that his assists/rebounds won't translate to the NBA - I think they will, specially in this era of bigs boxing out and playmakers grabbing the rebound to start the fast break (which, unintenionally, padding their stats)

My problem is with his scoring. And to those who said "Rubio got a lot better driving once the pace-and-space game of the NBA happened", let's remind everyone that RUbio drives a lot more, is actually pretty crafty and YET one of the worst finishers efficiency--wise in the NBA from 0-3 feet.

He's absolutely awful. It's not that doncic can't get by guys - it's that when he does, his finishing is below average. But, most importantly, I want to draw attention to his number of attempts at the rim (ignoring putbacks, cuts, offensive rebounds, etc).

Lonzo suffers from the same problem.

Nobody is driving at the rim in Euroleague like in Nba. The rules and the game just don’t allow that.

[J_T]

it's that when he does, his finishing is below average.

It is? His 2P % at the moment is 63.2% and that's combining rim attempts with jumpers from distance. Lebron's drive FG% this season is 60.8% and he is one of the best in the league (Parker 58.6%, Giannis 56.8%, Irving 55.8%, Holiday 54.7% and so on). How exactly would you define somebody being "below average" finisher? I'll admit that I don't have actual stats of him finishing at the rim, but I'd be very surprised if it was below 60%. Are you claiming that it is below 60% or you are defining it in some other way?

[Ettorefm]

it's that when he does, his finishing is below average.

It is? His 2P % at the moment is 63.2% and that's combining rim attempts with jumpers from distance. Lebron's drive FG% this season is 60.8% and he is one of the best in the league (Parker 58.6%, Giannis 56.8%, Irving 55.8%, Holiday 54.7% and so on). How exactly would you define somebody being "below average" finisher? I'll admit that I don't have actual stats of him finishing at the rim, but I'd be very surprised if it was below 60%. Are you claiming that it is below 60% or you are defining it in some other way?

Dude, usage, usage, usage. His number of attempts at the rim is 1)very small and 2)mixes all kinds of possible 0-3 attemps.

You watch games, you know what I'm talking about. There are stats showing the number of drives to the rim per game. Not only are those very small for a guy as good as him, but his efficiency on DRIVING SHOTS is abysmal.

As I said, he's extremely smart, so he doesn't take many because he knows he won't make them (and yes, it's more difficult to finish in Europe). 63.2% includes offensive rebounds, fastbreak opportunities, open shots...they skew reality.

How many open layups does lebron have every game? Or Harden? every drive is contested by one or two guys, a weakside defender trying to get the block, and sometimes he even gets fouled to add up.

usage and efficiency come together. It's like seeing a guy shoot 40% from 3pt and just 0.5 per game. That just means he only shoots when he's COMPLETELY OPEN and avoids taking them, that's why his efficiency is okay. You can't compare that to Curry shooting 37% on 10 threes a game, mostly contested

My point is, what happens when bigger, longer and stronger defenders null Doncic's shot by giving him contested mid-range jumpers or open drives at the rim where a 7'2 DPOY is waiting there? Because that's what they'll do, nobody's stupid to let Doncic, an elite off the dribble shooter from 3 just pull up like it's nothing.

[J_T]

I wish he didn't need a pick every single time to get something off. That limits his ceiling.

I disagree. That's just the way the game is being played today. Including NBA. When Dragic was asked which player was the hardest for him to defend, he said Chris Paul. And the reason he stated was because he ran 80 plus PnR's per game, it just killed him - and he is actually physically one of the most capable Euro guards ever in the league. Defending a really good PnR specialist is extremely annoying and exhausting. I think it's literally possible to play only PnR and 3 pointers and become MVP. There is a reason why Chris Paul was doing it and it's not because he had reached his ceiling otherwise.

Dude, Chris Paul is one of the best iso players of the last 10 years. I've seen him win dozens of regular seson games and tens of PLAYOFF games by his own without a single pick in the 4th quarter. Driving, mid-range shots, stepbacks, fadeaways, DEEP 3 pointers. And that's just in LA, Hornets Chris Paul was top 3 in ISO i've ever seen

The thing is, Chris Paul plays within the system. But when it's not working, he'll score you 10 points in a row by playing ISO against ANYONE, no matter what strategy you try - giving him the lane, making him go left, putting a 6'9 long defender on him, putting a small, quick dude on him, giving him the 3 ball. I mean, the most inefficient shot is the midrange, and Chris Paul can win games just by pulling up from the elbow.

Nothing like Doncic, sorry. Take his 3pt shot out (long defender playing him tight), take the passing away (other teammates stay on their man), and let Doncic beat you by driving. What will happen?

We know what will happen. He'll pass the ball to another person to handle and try to get a shot by going through screens - which shows two things
1) He's f**** smart and his BBIQ is off the charts, as he knows what's best for his team to win and can adapt to any defense
2) He has clear limitations, and he's aware of it. I've watched Doncic's games, and so has most people here. Full games, not just highlights. When the pressure is on him, he gives up the ball or forces a bad shot.

Now imagine Kawhi, Giannis or Robertson on him

All true, but I think that you are actually confirming my point. I claim that CP played an insane amount of PnR's because they work and that's just the way game is played. So instead of doing other things, he played PnR's. I think it's pretty obvious that Real Madrid wants to play PnR's as well. I don't think that Doncic is told "try to beat the player yourself and if you can't, go for PnR". I think that the coaching instructions are exactly the opposite, PnR is the default option. So he goes for PnR. PnR is not the inferior option, it's actually the superior option if you have the choice. That's why top PG's in the league are using it so much.

Here is a question, I hope you don't think it's unfair. All these Euroleague players that Doncic is supposedly not able to beat 1 on 1... what do you think an actual score would have been if they played a first to 11 game? Do you think that Doncic would actually be losing more often than not?